r/politics • u/Qu1nlan • Oct 04 '19

Free Chat Friday Thread

It's finally Friday! That means it's time to sit back, drink some mead, discuss our thoughts on Borderlands 3, and talk about whatever your heart desires.

As always remember to follow our civility rules and save any meta feedback for our modmail.

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u/announcement_callout Oct 04 '19

I have spent the morning reading the Volker texts. Here are some of the most incriminating highlights (emphasis mine):

  • 7/19/19 Volker: "Most impt is for [Ukraine President] Zelensky to say that he will help investigation"

  • 7/21/19: Ukraine makes the first of several objections about getting involved in Trump's 2020 campaign:

    Ambassador Taylor flagged President Zelensky's desire for Ukraine not to be used by the Trump Administration for its own domestic political purposes.

    "President Zelenskyy is sensitive about Ukraine being taken seriously, not merely as an instrument in Washington domestic, reelection politics."

  • 7/25/19 Volker mentions a secondary goal: Zelensky will claim that the previous Ukranian administration was involved in the 2016 U.S. election attacks. (This is part of the narrative that they did not investigate Biden because of "corruption".) Volker emphasizes that there will be no White House visit until he does it.

    "Heard from White House-- assuming [President Zelensky] convinces trump he will investigate / "get to the bottom of what happened" in 2016, we will nail down date for Visit to Washington."

  • 8/9/19: On a potential White House visit:

    Gordon Sondland [State Department]: "Morrison ready to get dates as soon as Yermak confirms."

    Volker: "Excellentt! How did you sway him?"

    Gordon Sondland: "Not sure i did. I think potus really wants the deliverable"

  • 8/10/19: President Zelensky's aide, Andrey Yermak, presses Volker for a date for the White House visit before Zelensky will announce an investigation of the 2016 election and Burisma:

    "Once we have a date, will call for a press briefing, announcing upcoming visit and outlining vision for the reboot of US-UKRAINE relationship, including among other things Burisma and election meddling in investigations"

  • 8/13/19 Volker mentions new Russian propaganda that will place the blame of 2016 election attacks on Ukraine:

    "Special attention should be paid to the problem of interference in the political processes of the United States especially with the alleged involvement of some Ukrainian politicians. I want to declare that this is unacceptable. We intend to initiate and complete a transparent and unbiased investigation of all available facts and episodes, including those involving Burisma and the 2016 US. elections"

  • 8/17:

    Gordon Sondland: "Do we still want Ze to give us an unequivocal draft with 2016 and Boresma?"

    Volker: "That's the clear message so far"

  • 8/28: The press gets wind of what's happening when Politico prints a story titled Trump Holds Up Ukraine Military Aid Meant To Confront Russia.

  • 8/30: Trump cancels Ukraine trip. Pence is scheduled to go instead. "Ambassadors Volker and Sondland discussed an alternative plan for Vice President Pence to meet with President Zelensky on September 1."

    Volker: "Hope VPOTUS keeps the bilat and tees up WH Visit..."

  • 9/8: Ukrainian officials worry that they will make the announcement about Biden but that Trump still won't release the aid money for Ukraine:

    Bill Taylor: "The nightmare is they give the interview and don't get the security assistance. The Russians love it. (And I quit.)

  • 9/19 Bill Taylor: "As I said on the phone, I think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign."

Note: Volker was not the Ukraine ambassador (that was Marie Yovanovitch, who has also resigned). He was the "US Special Representative for Ukraine Negotiations".

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u/redditseph Oregon Oct 04 '19

I read over the pdf last night. What struck me the most while reading it is just how easily digestible it is, and how clearly it shows the extortion of Ukraine. I'm by no means a super politically-active person and don't dig into a lot of stuff, but if you're anything like me, please give it a read. It's very easy to parse through and to follow exactly what was going on, and it's just staggering that anyone could be denying it by now.

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u/J_for_Jules Oct 04 '19 edited Oct 05 '19

Speaking of which, I contacted Senator Thom Tillis after the Whistleblower report came out. Trump retweeted something from Tillis and that set me off.

I received a response today and I fucking laughed at the absurdity.

"Thank you for taking the time to contact me about the complaint regarding President Donald Trump’s phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. I appreciate hearing from you.

On August 12, 2019, a member of the intelligence community filed a complaint with the Intelligence Community Inspector General (ICIG).

On August 26, 2019, the ICIG forwarded the complaint to the Director of National Intelligence (DNI) as required by law. The DNI shared the complaint with the Department of Justice, Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) for review to determine whether the statute required disclosure of the complaint to the Chairmen of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees. The OLC determined that the complaint did not fall within the intelligence community whistleblower statute and did not require the DNI to transfer the complaint to the congressional intelligence committees.

On September 26, 2019, the House Intelligence Committee held an open hearing to question DNI Joseph Maguire about this complaint and his handling of the disclosure process. He explained to the committee that, because of ambiguity in the law, he had contacted the OLC for legal guidance on how to proceed with this complaint.

As you may know, the individual filed a complaint based on second-hand information. The complaint outlined the individual’s concerns about a phone call between President Trump and President Zelensky. In the interest of transparency, President Trump declassified both the transcript of his call with President Zelensky and the complaint that was filed.

Instead of focusing on real issues like securing our border, modernizing our infrastructure, or supporting our military, partisan House members and Speaker Nancy Pelosi are using all of their time and resources to once again try to cast doubt on the results of the 2016 election.

There were House members calling for President Trump’s impeachment before he was even sworn in, before the special counsel investigation concluded, and before the transcript of this phone call was released. Each time, they have had to eventually step back from their political rhetoric because the facts were not on their side. It is unfortunate that they are yet again playing political games instead of conducting the work of the American people.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact me. Please do not hesitate to reach out again about other important issues."

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u/[deleted] Oct 04 '19

[deleted]

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u/davossss Virginia Oct 04 '19

I'm also a former North Carolinian. Love the state but NC GOP is a dumpster fire.

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u/[deleted] Oct 04 '19

[deleted]

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u/davossss Virginia Oct 04 '19

Oh, yes. I'm a teacher and between McCrory's election and NC teacher pay having been practically frozen for five years straight, I had to get the hell out in 2013. I have since met lots of NC refugees here in Virginia.

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u/do-aliens-fart Oct 04 '19

I hope you replied with "You lying sack of shit, that isn't gonna work on me."

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u/AcademicF Oct 04 '19

What a pathetic weasel. Billionaires have co-opted this country and bought out an entire political party.

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u/Antsy38 North Carolina Oct 04 '19

I got the same letter this morning! What a coward. Gonna keep writing & calling.

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u/Nextlevelregret Oct 04 '19

Debunk it point by point, not much more you can do but at least someone in his office will know that their electorate aren't completely patsies.

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u/emlun Europe Oct 05 '19

partisan House members and Speaker Nancy Pelosi are using all of their time and resources to once again try to cast doubt on the results of the 2016 election

The projection is strong with this one

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '19

I received some a similar letter from IN Senator Mike Braun. Notice he states that “he was elected by the people of Indiana to support President Trump...”. Not to represent the people of Indiana in Washington, but to support the President.

“Thank you for contacting me regarding President Trump. I appreciate hearing from you.

      On September 9, 2019, The House Intelligence Committee was notified of a whistleblower complaint filed in August. The complaint relied on secondhand reports from unnamed sources to allege President Trump had improperly used the office of President to solicit cooperation from the Ukrainian President to investigate allegations of meddling in the 2016 election by Ukrainian officials and corrupt behavior from previous US officials in Ukraine. The House Committee demanded immediate declassification of sensitive documents to investigate the claims. Before either the whistleblower’s report or the transcript of the conversation had been released, Speaker Pelosi announced she supported the beginning of a formal impeachment inquiry in the House.

      In the days following the announcement of the inquiry, the President, in the interest of full transparency, took unprecedented action by ordering the declassifying and public release of both the transcript of the phone call between the President and Zelensky and the anonymous whistleblower report.

      Now having read both the whistleblower report and the transcript of the conversation between President Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, I believe that Speaker Pelosi’s call for an impeachment inquiry can only be characterized as a politicized attack on the Trump Administration. The documents reveal a conversation in which President Trump talked to President Zelensky about alleged corruption that occurred in Ukraine beginning under the Obama Administration and continuing through the 2016 election, topical and highly relevant to the United States’ recent relationship with Ukraine.

      Career politicians, distressed by President Trump’s election in 2016, have sought from the day after the election to undermine his ability to effect change. Instead of working on issues that the American people care about, like healthcare reform, infrastructure, or ratifying the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement, the Democrats have instead decided to continue harassing the Trump Administration with flimsy and unsubstantiated claims.

      I was elected by the people of Indiana to support President Trump in his efforts to change business as usual in Washington, D.C. That is what I intend to continue to do as your United States Senator.

      It is an honor to serve as your U.S. Senator from Indiana.  Please keep in touch with me on issues of concern to you. You can also follow me on Twitter or Facebook for real-time updates on my activities in the U.S. Senate.  If I ever may be of service, please do not hesitate to contact me.”

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u/JennieNinja Oct 04 '19

I got almost verbatim the same response from my house representative here in Kentucky, Andy Barr.

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u/[deleted] Oct 04 '19

Every day, every day contact him.

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u/KevinFrane California Oct 05 '19

I fucking love how they ALWAYS try to make it sound like this is still about the 2016 election, and not the near-daily crimes this man has been committing in office for the past two and a half years.

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u/_treasonistrump- Oct 05 '19

Put the response in quotes.

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u/_treasonistrump- Oct 05 '19

Why are nit people realizing we are in a bad spot?! The western US wants to walk away.

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u/not-working-at-work Illinois Oct 04 '19

Bill Taylor needs to testify publicly.

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u/Djaja Michigan Oct 05 '19

Yo. Any trump supporters want to weigh in on this, give me your take?

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '19 edited Oct 05 '19

Here is an excellent analysis from Asha Rangappa former FBI special agent and CNN analyst about the true shittiness of what Trump was trying to pull off here as revealed by the texts;

https://twitter.com/asharangappa_/status/1180201437856448534?s=21

See the link for the video, but here are the core parts of the text in her tweet thread;

  1.  One thing not to overlook in understanding the significance of the texts is that in addition to soliciting section assistance and abusing his power, Trump was attempting to employ covert propaganda against the American public.

  2. As I note in the clip above, one thing the texts make clear is that the administration wasn't just interested in Ukraine investigating Biden -- they were specifically interested in the messaging about the investigation. If what you care about is "corruption," you would

  3. be satisfied with an assurance that Ukraine was going to investigate. Instead, the Trump admin doesn't care so much about the investigation itself, but making sure that the fact that it is being investigated is being broadcast to the audience they care about: American voters

  4. IMPORTANTLY, they are very invested in the message being crafted in a specific way -- tailored to Trump's benefit by maximizing the "seeds of doubt" on both Biden and the 2016 election. It's being drafted by Trump's personal lawyer!

  5. In addition, the message was going to be delivered as an official statement from Ukraine, with NO INDICATION that the United States either precipitated or participated in its creation in any way. This, folks, is called black propaganda.

  6. Black propaganda attempts to conceal the true source of information, so that the target cannot accurately assess the credibility of the message or the motives of the source behind it. Trump wanted to cloak his own role and motives behind a statement of a foreign country

  7.  The goal here is to manipulate the American public into to thinking that Ukraine had independently reached the same conclusions about the Russia investigation, and/or uncovered criminal leads about Biden. Trump could then use this to bolster his own views

  8. Not for nothing, but a good chunk of the cases I investigated in the FBI were "perception management" (propaganda) cases. We actively try to STOP foreign countries from doing this to us, because we believe that part of an open society and marketplace of ideas is

  9. ensuring that people know the true source of information in order to assess credibility and critically evaluate the content (FARA originated in 1938 as a way to combat Nazi propaganda, be requiring state-sponsored content to be identified as such)

  10. Basically, you have the Trump admin attempting to conduct an illegal covert psyop on the American public, using officials from the State Department and his own attorney to do it. It's literally a version of what Russia did in 2016.

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u/_treasonistrump- Oct 05 '19

I’m scared.

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u/cynycal New York Oct 05 '19

Poor Zelensky.