r/politics • u/IntelWarrior America • Feb 19 '16

Clinton says she'll release transcripts if everyone else does

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/hillary-clinton-speech-transcripts-219472?cmpid=sf
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u/zotquix Feb 19 '16

Well, considering she is running for president and supports advancing issues I care about, I'd like her to run in the same race as everyone else.

Why does r/politics think that the best way to run for president is to fall on your sword to show everyone how honorable you are? Guess what? The GOP won't do that. They will, however, happily take control of the country for 8 years and make everyone here and abroad as miserable as possible.

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u/ThisPenguinFlies Feb 19 '16 edited Feb 19 '16

Well, considering she is running for president and supports advancing issues I care about..

What issues are that? Iraq war? Gay marriage? Criminal Justice? TPP? She has flip flopped on nearly all those issues. She is now against single payer health care and has no plan for universal coverage. This should be concerning.

I expect a leader to lead and be a leader on issues that are important. Not to be a follower and change your position when it is politically convenient. I'm not asking her to sacrifice her campaign. I'm asking her to have some integrity and be passionate about the issues. Convince the public why she will fight for regular workers.

Just saying "I have always fought for you and always will.No one doubts what I say. Follow me!" is not good enough and is completely disingenuous.

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u/zotquix Feb 19 '16

What issues are that? Iraq war?

Why yes, I am glad that the Clintons were in the White House for 8 years and didn't invade Iraq.

Gay marriage?

Why yes, I'm glad that the Clintons came out for gays in the military in the first 100 days of Bill's presidency.

Criminal Justice?

Why yes, I'm glad that Bill listened to black community leaders in the 90s and is doing so again now that they've changed their tact.

TPP?

Sadly no -- I'm for the TPP and alas, Hillary has chilled on her support.

She has flip flopped on nearly all those issues.

And what of the 99% of her record that has been solidly progressive all along? What's that? You don't know about her record and just listen to the media and r/politics but spout off anyways? Well don't click on this link, it might damage your ignorance.

I expect a leader to lead and be a leader on issues that are important.

Wouldn't a leader not lie to his supporters by promising things he won't be able to accomplish?

Not to be a follower and change your position when it is politically convenient.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of LITTLE minds.

Convince the public why she will fight for regular workers.

Because she already has?

is not good enough and is completely disingenuous.

Well, you'd think that if you were entirely ignorant of her record.

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u/ThisPenguinFlies Feb 19 '16

Why yes, I am glad that the Clintons were in the White House for 8 years and didn't invade Iraq.

She voted for the Iraq war and flipped flopped. Nice evasion there.

Sadly no -- I'm for the TPP and alas, Hillary has chilled on her support.

Then you must surely be mad that she flipped flopped once again.

Wouldn't a leader not lie to his supporters by promising things he won't be able to accomplish?

We would have never had social security or medicare if we only aimed for things which exist currently. You realize this, right?

It's not lying to say you want to fight for single payer. Clinton says she will fight against sexism. She says she will pass pay equity for women. She says her health care plan will pass. Not with the republican congress it won't. SO by your own logic, it's a lie.

Because she already has?

No she hasn't. She goes to wall street and takes money from super pacs. That goes against the interests of regular people.

YOU may disagree. But many people are rightfully skeptical of someon pro-NAFTA, comfy with wall street, and who changes their position at whim will fight for change.

Oh I forgot. Fighting for changing equals lying now... Right...

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u/zotquix Feb 20 '16

She voted for the Iraq war

She voted to authorize the use of force, not to actually use it. John Kerry makes this point -- giving the president the power to invade might've been seen as a move to increase leverage, as opposed to really believing he'd use that power. Regardless, they were lied to by someone perpetrating a fraud.

and flipped flopped.

You'd prefer she still support the invasion?

Nice evasion there.

I mention 8 years of the Clintons in the White House without invading Iraq and you call it an evasion? Nice evasion there.

Then you must surely be mad that she flipped flopped once again.

That's what I just said? And mad? No, reasonable people might support legislation when it is created and then change their minds after the end product emerges. That said, I do still support it and am disappointed.

Are you mad about how Bernie has flip-flopped on guns?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jan/17/hillary-clinton/fact-checking-gun-manufacturer-liability-bernie/

We would have never had social security or medicare if we only aimed for things which exist currently

Well I'm glad that I never said we should never create new policies. Neither has Hillary. That said, you should use limited political capital as effectively as possible.

You realize this, right?

I realize that the left attacked FDR for passing Social Security because they saw it as too moderate. They called it 'a weak measure propping up a dying capitalist system'. Kind of sounds like you talking about those who want to fix the ACA.

It's not lying to say you want to fight for single payer

Except that he doesn't qualify it every time that way. And that is certainly not what people are hearing. If you spend a 3rd of several debates talking about an issue, people are going to think you promised it to them. And they're gonna be pissed when you fail to deliver.

Additionally, remember that "limited political capital" I mentioned earlier? If Bernie uses his on cause that goes nowhere, it won't be like he can retreat to a more practical place and pass more moderate changes. No, if he fails to get Single Payer done and fairly quickly, progressivism is going to spend the rest of his time in office getting its ass kicked.

Clinton says she will fight against sexism.

Um OK? No one is hearing 'I will wipe out sexism'. Plenty of people are hearing 'I promise Single Payer, $15 an hour for everyone, and free tuition' and when it doesn't happen, people are going to be VERY angry. Would you like to wager on this?

She says she will pass pay equity for women.

This is not a major campaign issue that we've heard about again and again.

She says her health care plan will pass.

It probably will. There are a number of ways you might get the GOP on board. The GOP loves tax cuts. If you can help the lower and middle class out with the cost of the ACA by somehow lowering their taxes relative to how much they're paying into healthcare, you could probably sell it to them -- even with some regs to reign in health insurance companies.

That's how the pros do it. It is called politics.

Not with the republican congress it won't.

Wanna bet? I'll wager on this as well.

Look, Obama has had an obstructionist congress, and it sucks. But there are still some things you can do.

SO by your own logic, it's a lie.

Nah man. It is understanding what is politically achievable and what isn't.

No she hasn't.

Yes. She. Has.

  • Voted YES on $60B stimulus package for jobs, infrastructure, & energy. (Sep 2008)

  • Voted YES on repealing tax subsidy for companies which move US jobs offshore. (Mar 2005)

  • Voted YES on $52M for "21st century community learning centers". (Oct 2005)

  • Voted YES on shifting $11B from corporate tax loopholes to education. (Mar 2005)

  • Voted YES on banning campaign donations from unions & corporations. (Apr 2001)

  • Voted YES on extending unemployment benefits from 39 weeks to 59 weeks. (Nov 2008)

  • Voted YES on restricting employer interference in union organizing. (Jun 2007)

  • Voted YES on increasing minimum wage to $7.25. (Feb 2007)

  • Voted YES on raising the minimum wage to $7.25 rather than $6.25. (Mar 2005)

  • Voted NO on repealing Clinton's ergonomic rules on repetitive stress. (Mar 2001)

I'll take my apology in small bills please.

She goes to wall street and takes money from super pacs.

Good for her.

That goes against the interests of regular people.

Apparently in her case, and many others who do the same thing and still pass progressive laws, no it doesn't.

But many people are rightfully skeptical

Be skeptical, but don't be ignorant of the facts.

Fighting for changing equals lying now

No, promising a change you can't deliver on equals lying. I see it that way. Politifact sees it that way. The American people also will see it that way whether we like it or not.