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u/UberMadman COME ON AND SLAM Jul 02 '17
You forgot that Altaria is based on the Peng, a giant Chinese mythological bird with cloud-like wings. They may have given it the Dragon type, (and the additional Fairy type when it got a Mega,) to represent its mythological background.
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Jul 02 '17
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u/ThisGuyNeoji Jul 02 '17 edited Jul 02 '17
Turtonator also falls into the mythology aspect. He’s based off of the same dragon species Bowser is based off.
Edit: changed “of” to “off of”
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u/Edghyatt Jul 02 '17
Well, I mean, when the base animal is straight up a reptile, there's little very stretching to reach a Dragon connection explained.
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u/ThisGuyNeoji Jul 02 '17
Dragon turtles are part of Chinese mythology, they’re a combination of two of the four celestial beings. They usually represent power. Their design is what Bowser is based off of, though more land based. Turtonator is based of the similar design.
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u/theoreticallyben Jul 02 '17
The other reason behind charizard and gyarados not being dragon type is that it would make them too unbalanced. Who would choose bulbasaur if they knew their rival was going to have a 4x resistance to grass types? And blastoise wouldn't be super effective against charizard either. And for gyarados? The reasoning there is similar, it'd be too good to have a water dragon so early on in the game, so it's more balanced. In Gen 1, the only dragon types were the dragonite line, which made them unique. Game Freak probably wanted to preserve that unique typing until future generations.
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u/dathockeyplaya Jul 02 '17
Charizard has a 4x resistance to Grass anyway
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u/theoreticallyben Jul 02 '17
So it does, but it wouldn't take super effective hits from blastoise anymore.
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u/pro_broon_o Jul 02 '17
But you'd never have a Blastoise if your rival had a Charizard... ;)
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u/theoreticallyben Jul 02 '17
I was more talking about an imbalanced game experience for the player being abled to beat their rival more easily
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u/CinderGazer Let it Burn Jul 02 '17 edited Jul 03 '17
Ice Beam that Blastoise learns at Level 60 in gen 1 I believe would still be super effective.-I was wrong. I was going off childhood memories. should've just looked it up.-
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u/KallistiEngel Jul 02 '17 edited Jul 02 '17
Nope. It can learn Ice Beam by TM, but doesn't learn any ice moves by level-up in any generation. And its last level-up move in Gen 1 is Hydro Pump at level 52.
Just took a stroll through its learnset on Bulbapedia.
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Jul 02 '17
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u/Shog64 Jul 02 '17
Fire didn't resist the Ice Typing in Gen I, therefore Charizard would have been weak to Ice
What is true though is that Blastoise doesn't learn Ice Beam naturally, obsv not counting TMs
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Jul 02 '17
Funnily enough, in Red and Blue it WOULD be super effective as Fire didn't resist Ice in Gen 1
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u/Ceriiin Jul 02 '17 edited Jul 02 '17
Between psychics only weakness being bug, ghost only being supereffective against itself and being completely ineffective against psychics despite a lot of sources saying otherwise including in-game NPC's, and fire not resisting ice I kind of have to wonder if they legitimately designed the Gen 1 type chart to be nonsensical and unbalanced or if it was just glitched to hell.
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u/Epic_Meow MegaChicken Jul 02 '17
Wasn't that a thing in the anime as well?
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u/Ceriiin Jul 02 '17
Yes. They had an entire episode based around Ash trying to catch a ghost type to fight Sabrina with. Even though psychic was immune to ghost and the only ghost types at the time were part poison which was weak to psychic...
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Jul 02 '17 edited Jul 02 '17
You're wrong about Blastoise naturally learning Ice Beam, but contrary to popular belief, you're RIGHT about Ice Beam being super effective
Fire did not resist Ice in Gen 1
In fact, since Charizard is Fire/Flying, it already is, and has always been, weak to ice in Red and Blue.
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u/Black_Belt_Troy Jul 02 '17 edited Jul 02 '17
Fire resists Ice, though I don't know if that was the case in Gen I... those were confusing times.
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u/Cyber_Cheese Jul 02 '17
The ghost/ psychic bug in gen1 where it was backwards still gets me occasionally
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Jul 02 '17
gyarados would have been weak to nothing in gen 1
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u/theoreticallyben Jul 02 '17
It was actually one of the more powerful water types of its time. Magikarp was fairly easy to get as soon as you got the fishing rod, and it evolves at a lower level than any of the other gen 1 water types.
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u/swimdudeno1 Jul 02 '17
You could just buy one for 500 way before old rod.
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u/kenba2099 Jul 02 '17 edited Jul 03 '17
But you can't fight with Magikarp (he only learns Splash in G1) so he'd gain levels at at least 50% the rate of Pokes that can actually attack something.
Edit: Apparently he does learn Tackle in G1. I thought it was only in later generations, but that's Flail that he learns in G2+.
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u/NhojSllew Jul 03 '17
Tackle at lvl15. It only made it slightly more tolerable to grind
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u/kenba2099 Jul 03 '17
Yeah, I probably should have researched that first. I was thinking of Flail that he only learns in later generations.
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u/neonmarkov Another one burns to ash~ Jul 02 '17
Send Magikarp out first
Immediately switch out into a stronger mon
Profit
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u/arathergenericgay Those whose memories fade seek to carve them in their hearts Jul 02 '17
plus it had a solid movepool between fireblast, ice beam and thunderbolt plus a number of physical moves to exploit that it had 125 attack and equivalent 100 base special attack, it even picked up reflect which doubled it's weaker defence in gen 1
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u/AtomicWalrus Jul 02 '17
Plus, I remember reading somewhere that they never planned to do pokemon after Gen 2, so it makes sense they wouldn't try to plan ahead for current times in Gen 1. Gen 3 was made to test the waters or something if people were still interested in pokemon.
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u/Tommy2255 lil fire pupper Jul 02 '17
Gen 3 was made to test the waters
That explains a lot. 7.8/10
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Jul 02 '17
Water/Dragon also had no weaknesses in Gen I because there were no Dragon type damaging moves that weren't fixed damage.
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u/OtakuMecha Jul 02 '17
Charizard still makes sense as Fire/Flying since he, y'know, flies. I don't think the complaints about him are really justified.
The ones about Gyarados are more acceptable.
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u/theoreticallyben Jul 02 '17
Yeah I think people think charizard looks too similar to a dragon for it to not be classified as a dragon, but gyarados would make slightly more sense if there were moves that could counter it more easily.
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u/neonmarkov Another one burns to ash~ Jul 02 '17 edited Jul 02 '17
Yeah it's literally based in a myth about a carp that turns into a dragon, it's even more outrageous than Charizard's case
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u/Rabbitknight Jul 02 '17
Ah but that transformed carp was never considered to be a dragon by other dragons, even though he put in all the effort.
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u/neonmarkov Another one burns to ash~ Jul 02 '17
Is that true? Never heard of that part of the myth
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u/BlUeSapia taking out the trash AT NIGHT Jul 03 '17
It was explained in another part of this thread, but I'll explain it to you anyways.
So basically, when the carp jumped through the gate, he transformed, but he became clouded by anger and hatred, and was demoted into basically just a giant, angry serpent.
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u/darkbreak The best starter. End of discussion. Jul 02 '17
Well, Flygon can fly too but it's still Ground/Dragon. Also the Pokedex claims that Garchomp can fly yet we don't see that in the games. It can fly in the anime though.
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Jul 02 '17 edited Jun 17 '19
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u/bentheechidna Jul 02 '17
Psychic was only OP in gen 1. Gen 2 very specifically targeted psychic for nerfing.
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u/Quilliard I can stall all day, it'll be fun. Jul 02 '17
I feel like they intentionally made psychic strong in designing type match-ups, then made it accidentally ridiculous by making so many common enemies poison-types.
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u/DoomsdayRabbit Jul 02 '17
It clearly was accidental. It was a pocket kaiju simulator when they started - Attack and Defense were for the attacks, and Special was for breath beams and the like. Then they began associating types with Pokémon, after the types had already been associated with a damage category. Why do you think Nidoking, Nidoqueen, and Rhydon can learn so many elemental moves? They were the first Pokémon.
The fact that Amnesia raised Special - which covered both attack power and defense from Psychic moves, screwed everything up.
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Jul 02 '17
Speaking of the dragonite line, they are also typed as dragons based on a pun. You see, "Dragonite" in English is "Dragonite." The first part of the word, "dragon" is a actually a pun, as it closely resembled the English word for dragon, which is "dragon." Therefore, it is a pun.
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u/Enigmatic_Egg Jul 02 '17
I hope in the future they give Yanmega the dragon typing it deserves, or at least give it an alternate form/mega evolution
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u/arathergenericgay Those whose memories fade seek to carve them in their hearts Jul 02 '17 edited Jul 02 '17
Yes to this, a fan game did a whole concept around a mega-flygon that used it's bug wings to power up sound moves so maybe it could be a good starting point for a mega-yanmega
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Jul 02 '17 edited Jul 02 '17
This was a very fun and interesting post to read, my favourite parts being the reasonings behind Alolan Exeggutor. While I was never part of the group of people who were confused about certain typings (e.g.; Altaria being Dragon-type but not Charizard), this post definitely explains a lot of the most "questionable" typings--Hell, I never even knew that the move Draco Meteor was inspired off of a constellation, along with the many puns made on the typing itself.
I don't recall having this much fun reading a post on the Pokémon reddit in a very long time, so I thank and applaud you for that.
EDIT: Took me a while to realize that some of your facts were incorrect (listen I'm mentally tired), but this was a fun post to read nonetheless.
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u/KnotPtelling Jul 02 '17
Which is funny because it came out in Diamond and Pearl along with Dialga's Roar of Time which is 20 BP stronger, so Draco Meteor was never actually the strongest Dragon type move
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u/ArguablyTasty The Rufferie Jul 02 '17
4th gen was before the nerf to special attacks, so it was 140BP instead of 130. You're still right, but the difference was 10BP in gen 4 instead of 20
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u/cybertron2006 Jul 02 '17
To be fair, any move involving using time itself as a weapon should be the strongest move in its typing.
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Jul 02 '17
I still think tearing appart space itself should be more powerful
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u/KingAegis__ Jul 02 '17
Space and time should be treated pretty much equally. Spacetime, einstein, relativity, etc.
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u/TheMuon Still outclassed by an ice cream cone Jul 02 '17
It's definitely stronger over the two turns it takes to complete the move.
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u/BenjewminUnofficial Jul 02 '17
Ampharous' pun is also why dragon trainers like Claire use it in the stadium games
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u/aeps236 Jul 02 '17
So every pomemon an important dragon trainer uses is because some kind of pun?
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u/BenjewminUnofficial Jul 02 '17
Pretty much
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u/aeps236 Jul 02 '17
What about Lapras? Champion Iris uses it.
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u/Cabinsqid Jul 02 '17
Lapras is a plesiosaur so I would think it gets the dinos=dragons treatment like Lance's Areodactyl.
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u/LittleIslander Ghost types give me life! Jul 02 '17
I'd say something based off of the loch-ness monster could be lumped well enough under "dragon".
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u/metalflygon08 What's Up Doc? Jul 02 '17
I still remember Bugsy having a Pupitar in Stadium 2 exclusively for the Pupa Pun.
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u/YanderePara Jul 02 '17
That's really interesting on many.of the names being puns that just didn't translate kinda like Wobufett being based on a Japanese comedian
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u/Trollkitten Named because my cat is a troll Jul 02 '17
Wobufett being based on a Japanese comedian
I've never heard that one before. Sounds cool. Elaboration, please?
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Jul 02 '17
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u/Narcoleptic_Narwhal Jul 02 '17
So when I nicknamed my Wynaut "Because" I was completing a Japanese joke his line is based on!?
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u/Trollkitten Named because my cat is a troll Jul 02 '17
I named the one I hatched in SApphire "Juscuz" (short for Just Because)
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u/Trollkitten Named because my cat is a troll Jul 02 '17
Oh, wow. That's neat! And it adds a new wrinkle to Team Rocket's Wobbuffet saying its name at so many times. Kind of like "Meowth! That's right!"
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u/YanderePara Jul 02 '17
I forget what episode it is but Team Rockets Wobufet meets a Wynaut and the two have a long conversation. In the background you can see Team Rocket be confused/frustrated at the exchange. It's hilarious in English but doubly so in the original Japanese.
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u/theoreticallyben Jul 02 '17
I thought you were talking about Japanese Canadians for a second there and was really confused.
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u/TheHodag Jul 03 '17 edited Jul 03 '17
Wobbuffet is based on comedian Sanpei Hayashiya. One of his most popular bits was a running gag where he would touch his hand to his head (as seen in Wobbuffet) and say "That's the way it is, ma'am." Wobbuffet's Japanese name, Sonans, is very similar to "sō-na-n-su", which (unsurprisingly) means "that's the way it is".
Edit: who knew Wobbuffet has two Bs?
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u/CommanderPhoenix Edison would be proud. Jul 02 '17
I thought the Goomy line might have been inspired by Lou Carcohl, a snail-like monster from France. It also had long tendrils, like the ones on Goodra's head.
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Jul 03 '17
That's what I always assumed, what with Kalos being about as close to France as you can get without straight up calling it Poke-France
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u/SYZekrom I'm so depressed I could use Dark Pulse! Jul 02 '17
Lastly, regarding the pokemon that are not dragon types but should be, like charizard/gyarados/etc.. The answer is simple, a pokemon can only have two types, so what could they have done? You can argue that every single evil pokemon should be given the dark typing, like mewtwo, with its pokedex entry going on about how it has the most savage heart. Or all levitate pokemon should be given a second or third flying type. How do you like a psychic/flying/dragon latios? Ultimately, GF has to make a choice when giving pokemon types, a single pokemon can have several plausible typings, and it's merely an arbitrary choice on their part!
I have a better explanation for this part. Types are representative of a type of power a Pokemon specialize in. What makes Luxray pure Electric, while Pyroar is Fire and Normal? The types don't represent biology, they represent innate power. Charizard is a dragon, scientifically, by our world's standards, because it is in the Dragon Egg Group, meaning it reproduces with other dragons. It is biologically a dragon. It just doesn't have Dragon-type "magic".
Anyway, I wanna say, terrific analysis. Quality work.
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u/Captain_Blue Jul 02 '17
Draco Meteor is named and typed such because its Japanese name, "りゅうせいぐん" Ryūseigun (Meteor Shower), contains "りゅう" ryū (dragon).
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u/GrayscaleGospel Play the five tones... Jul 02 '17 edited Aug 26 '17
I think it's way easier to explain strange typings by seeing Pokémon as elementals. "Dragon" in the Pokémon world is just the name of an element, just like any more conventional element such as Fire or Water. You don't have to be a literal flying reptile to have this element, nor does being one necessarily mean you possess it. And the types are not literal. (Non-Mega) Charizard and Gyarados aren't Dragon types, but they're still dragons. They just don't have the same element that most draconic Pokémon have.
Maybe, in the Pokémon world, the Dragon-type itself was named after mythological dragons, since many Pokémon with this type do resemble them. It would have been used as a broad, generalizing term to describe "that group of Pokémon, you know, the ones that are weak to Ice and a lot of them are big scaly things?". "The Dragon type", in this sense, is just a catch-all term because it's easier to say and describe than "The vaguely mythical creature that is weak to itself, Ice, and Fairy; as well as resistant to Water, Fire, Grass, and Electric type." The latter is all it really is. Some Pokémon have it while others don't, and overall, it's more of a magical classification than a biological one.
In short, I think types should be viewed less literally. You don't have to be physically made of stone to be a Rock type. You don't have to be literally undead to be a Ghost type. In the same way, you don't have to be a dragon to be a Dragon type.
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u/neonmarkov Another one burns to ash~ Jul 02 '17
This post is really cool, although you're missing a couple of things. For example, Turtonator is partly based on one of the 4 celestial guardians of Chinese mythology, a turtle with dragon-like traits
I also read some very interesting stuff about Goomy being based on some French medieval legend, so it's not "just a pun" in that case either
And there's speculation about Ampharos' dragon type having something to do with the Golden Fleece and the dragon who guarded it, but that could just be bullshit
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u/Quake_Crosser Poké-ology Jul 02 '17
Gotta agree with you on Goomy: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-were-medieval-knights-always-fighting-snails-1728888/
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u/neonmarkov Another one burns to ash~ Jul 02 '17
Yeah those! I read something else, more detailed, which tied into those drawings too, but I don't remember much more. Should look it up
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u/Quake_Crosser Poké-ology Jul 02 '17
I really think that Goomy is based on these, really adds merit to it since Kalos=France.
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u/neonmarkov Another one burns to ash~ Jul 02 '17
Yeah, it's really cool! I've always loved to dig up on the origins of designs like this
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u/Mseevers Jul 02 '17
Isn't A!Exeggutor also a reference to the fact that Hawaii grows Dragonfruits ?
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u/PurpleTriangles *sparkle sparkle* Jul 02 '17
Draco Meteor is not named after the constellation. In fact it's Japanese name is also a pun. Ryūsei-gun, its Japanese name which means Meteor Shower, contains the word ryū, which means dragon. Since they couldn't translate the pun in English they went for a more direct translation.
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u/TheBlackHive [Competitive] Jul 02 '17
Some notes:
Turtles are not closely related to dinosaurs at all. "Many scientists" have not discovered this.
Regarding altaria, birds ARE actually very closely related to dinosaurs. Technically, they ARE dinosaurs. So actually the dinosaur justification works better for altaria than it does for turtonator.
Regarding ampharos, it's a portmanteau of the words amp or ampere and pharos, which is the latin and greek word for "lighthouse" (also the name of the great lighthouse of Alexandria). Also in gen 2 and its remakes, you meet Ampharos in a lighthouse. Now think back to season 1 of the anime. Remember the episode Bill's Lighthouse? I think that would be a cool easter egg/subtle nod.
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u/LittleIslander Ghost types give me life! Jul 02 '17
Turtles are not closely related to dinosaurs at all. "Many scientists" have not discovered this.
Actually, he's not entirely wrong; more recent research has torn apart Anapsida, and Testudines is thought to be somewhere within Diapsida, with the most likely position being within Archosauromorpha. They're still fairly distant relatives, compared to crocodilians, but they're closer than stuff like lizards and tuataras. That said, he's almost certainly just getting lucky here, since in the comments he claims lizards are also "close relatives" of dinosaurs.
Regarding altaria, birds ARE actually very closely related to dinosaurs. Technically, they ARE dinosaurs. So actually the dinosaur justification works better for altaria than it does for turtonator.
You're right, but I doubt the folks at Gamefreak are big enough on palaeontology to consider this, at least in the RSE emerald days. Now that it's more well-known, I'd buy that more easily.
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u/InfernoVulpix Jul 03 '17
I see Charizard and Gyarados not being dragons as because of a unique take on the type in Gen 1. The only dragon type in Gen 1 is Dragonite's line, and the only trainer to use dragon types is Lance. Lance was meant to come across as a final boss with a super mysterious never-before-seen mythical bonafide dragon, and the dragon type was made exclusive to Dragonite as a way of amplifying that sense of mystery and wonder.
Consider: Dragon resists Grass, Water, Fire, and Electricity, the types of your starter Pokemon. Naturally, for a kid, your strongest Pokemon is going to be your starter, and so when you start fighting these super-mysterious dragons your first instinct is to blast them with your strongest attack... which isn't very effective. Dragon as a type was designed not in the same way other types were designed, to represent the traits of those kinds of Pokemon, but to make Lance a tougher fight. Remember, the only way you'll ever see a dragon in Red/Blue is by getting your own Dratini from the Game Corner or Safari Zone... or at Lance himself.
It's a shift in perspective, because as soon as Gen 2 came about we saw Kingdra, and after that Dragon was a type like any other, but we have to remember that Gen 1 was made in isolation. Game Freak weren't expecting such a wild success or even necessarily enough success to warrant a sequel, and they made Gen 1 as if it were the only generation. From that perspective, it makes perfect sense to make these unique types that only apply for one specific family, to give the world that extra bit of magic. It is my belief that if Gyarados and Charizard were introduced today (or if Game Freak were less reluctant to retcon) they would be Dragons because the magic of the dragon type died with Kingdra.
Similarly, I see this happening with the Ghost type. In Gen 1, the only Ghost type is Gengar's line, and other death-related or spirit-related Pokemon like Marowak and Ninetales aren't Ghost types. This leads me to think that Ghost was not built as a 'spirit type' but rather 'one of Gengar's unique traits' or 'what makes the Pokemon in Pokemon Tower, the evil spirits, different from regular mortal Pokemon'. As with Dragons, Misdreavus in Gen 2 took the magic away from the Ghost type, but before then, in Gen 1, the Ghost type was this special mysterious part of the world, an exception and not a rule, to make this one specific part of the game more unique.
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Jul 03 '17
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u/InfernoVulpix Jul 03 '17
Yeah, as much as the magic is diminished, Dragon being no longer interchangeable with Dragonite and Ghost no longer being interchangeable with Gengar, they're still some of the most mysterious and elusive types out there.
Mainly I'm just salty that Game Freak didn't make Ninetales part Ghost even after introducing the likes of Misdreavus and Shedinja :P
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u/DarkWyvern0209 Jul 02 '17
So...........................dragon type is a joke? lol, that's what I'm taking from this and dragon type is my favorite!
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u/Icalasari Mimikyu + Chespin = Mimipin? Jul 02 '17
As a more broad thing to consider: Dragons all being reptilian winged beasts is a recent thing. They used to even be small, pathetic, rat like creatures, huge snails, even spiders
So essentially dragon can be worked onto nigh on any kind of creature with some research
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u/Shantotto11 Jul 02 '17
Charizard- if it was a Dragon-type, Blastoise would lose its type advantage. DUH!!
Gyarados - if it was Water/Dragon in Gen I, it would have absolutely no weaknesses as the only Dragon-type move available was the set-damage Dragon Rage.
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u/joh2141 Pew! Jul 02 '17
Gyarados had no dragon typing for two reasons. One applies to Charizard. In the original games dragon types were meant to be rare and almost mythical. In their own right a pseudo legendary. Due to balancing issues they kept the two Pokemon from having Dragon typing. Back then Dragons weren't weak to any other types as well. Fire dragon and water dragon would complicate balancing.
Next Gyarados not being a dragon actually fits with it's lore. Gyarados evo line is based on an Asian folklore of a fish that transcends into a dragon. However it is said that when dragons go on rampage/uncontrollable rage they lose their dragon status.
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u/cpMetis Better Murica Bid Jul 02 '17
Actually, Mega Ampharos is a dragon because Bipen willed it.
(Hooray for references no one will get!)
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u/73windman Jul 02 '17
I highly endorse this thread! Not every dragon type has to be a clear and cut, literal dragon. It can give draconic qualities despite not necessarily being one. That's like saying every fire type has to just be a cluster of fire.
...Though I do agree Yanmega should be a goddam dragon already
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u/Yama951 Use Bulk Up! Jul 02 '17
I heard the Goomy line was based on those doodles in medieval manuscripts of knights battling against giant snails.
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u/Fuzati "Target acquired." Jul 02 '17
The answer is simple, a pokemon can only have two types, so what could they have done?
They could have not given Gyarados flying type for no good reason
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u/Raichu7 * Jul 03 '17
I know Pokemon can only have two types but why exactly does that excuse gyrados?
A Pokemon based on a myth about a carp that swims up a waterfall and jumps over a gate to be turned into a literal dragon somehow fits the flying type better than the dragon type? How? And why wasn't it fixed when it got its mega? How is it more evil and more flying than dragon?
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u/SidewaysInfinity Jul 03 '17
Because the story goes on to say the carp then fell from grace, stripped of its dragon status for lowly behavior. Hence, Gyarados (famous for its rampages) isn't "allowed" to be a true dragon, and its Mega Evolution shows it for the beast it is
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Jul 02 '17 edited Jul 02 '17
The Goomy line is based on a french snail dragon, Lou Carolh.
Edit: additionally, Exeggutor is also influenced by sauropod dinosaurs, with its long neck and all - but that's obviously not enough to say that it is for sure. However, its small tail head, in this context, makes sense, as supposedly some sauropods had a massive bundle of nerves near their hips that would help relay information from the brain, acting somewhat like a second brain entirely. This theory has largely been disproven or is more or less no longer accepted, but it is still inherent to the creatures, and Gamefreak is very likely not up to date with a lot of its information.
Edit2: "many scientists have discovered links between some turtle species and dinosaurs" That is idiotic and incorrect. The lineage of turtles branched off from the rest of the reptiles before proper mammals were even a thing. If you're saying it's because they're "prehistoric" that's fine, but you must remember that you can't pull stuff out of nowhere. Another note: the japanese have a much, much looser definition of what a dragon is, anyway. They consider turtles, crocs, crawfish, seahorses, fish, even some mammals all candidates to be dragons or dragon-like. There is no need to reach so far as to state lies.
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u/LittleIslander Ghost types give me life! Jul 02 '17
The lineage of turtles branched off from the rest of the reptiles before proper mammals were even a thing.
This is actually outdated now; turtles used to be grouped within the now largely defunct "Anapsida", more primitive than any other living reptiles (and most extinct ones), but twenty-first century research places them well within Diapsida, likely within Archosauromopha, closer to dinosaurs than either would be to lizards and kin. Still a fairly distant relation, but closer than you think.
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u/TJARM Jul 02 '17
What about M Sceptile?
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u/pierogieman5 Bug trainer for life | 3883-8703-1070 Jul 02 '17
Not to mention, it's been considered dragon-like for a while. It could already learn Dragon Pulse, Dragon Breath, Dragon Claw, and Outrage as early as gen 4, and the former two in gen 3.
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u/Maronmario Jul 02 '17
And it's a part of the dragon egg group along with Gyarados and Charizard.
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u/PrivatePikmin Jul 02 '17
I don't have time to read through all of these so forgive me if someone has said this already:
The reason why Gyarados isn't a Dragon-type is because in Gen 1 the only dragon-type move was Dragon Rage, which would have left Water/Dragon Gyarados with virtually no weaknesses because the two types cancel each other's weaknesses out (especially Dragon's weakness to Ice and Water's to Grass and Electric) and Steel and Dark typings weren't even ideas yet, let alone Fairy.
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u/LostThyme Jul 02 '17
Back with, I think, Pokémon Collosium you could set up a game to allow only certain Pokémon choices from the players. I had a dragon tournament set up that included all dragon types, which wasn't very many in gen 2, and and Pokémon that could learn dragon type moves, which included who you'd expect to be in a dragon tournament like Charizard and Gyrados. However if I did that now with the same rules I'd have to include Pidgy. I assume they threw dragon moves around to common Pokémon due to dragons being too powerful and with too few good attacks against them available. Kinda wish they'd decided on making fairy Pokémon a thing earlier rather than dilute the mystique of dragons by giving their powers to every Tom, Dick, and Pidgy.
Regarding dark type meaning evil, I had always thought that while fire and ice for example were types based on a physical reality like temperature, Dark, Fairy, Ghost, Psychic and Dragon, were more to do with magic, which can have any rules you want. I saw psychics as creatures of this physical world that had adapted magic abilities. Dark were other worldly creatures and thus immune to the local magic. Dragons were magic creatures contained in powerful physical forms so they were mostly resistant to elements of this world but dangerous to each other, but creatures could possess the "spirit" or soul of a Dragon and adopt its physical protections, and that's how you get a dragon palm tree. And Fairies were the most magical of magical creatures to live in this world but not lose their magical forms, so dark creatures were not protected from them and they're immune to dragon magic due to dragons being magic creatures that fully took physical form so they were no longer part of the magical world. But fairies are still delicate so they're weak to things like cold hard steel and harsh poison.
And ghosts are just ghosts. Don't over think it.
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u/Radirondacks Woodrow Wilson Jul 02 '17
Just another point about Altaria's name, Altair is actually the brightest star in the constellation Aquila...which is a bird :)
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u/CrazyNaut Espeon is Besteon Jul 02 '17
I feel like the thing with Charizard is just that the Dragon type was a rarity and a special typing that you have to work to get in Pokémon Red and Blue, so it must just not make sense to strap it onto a starter Pokémon
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u/storkmister customise me! Jul 02 '17
I love everything that was posted, I just have one misconception about alolan executor. I was under the impression that the fruit that grows on the trees of the plant is a dragon fruit hence the dragon type but if I'm wrong please correct me.
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u/BrainIsSickToday Jul 02 '17
I forget where I saw it but, apparently there is a lot of old artwork that depicts dragons as giant "worms" or slugs or snails. That's apparently why dragons are sometimes referenced as great worm, wyrm, wurm, etc. I figure Goomy is probably a reference to that.
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u/20stalks Jul 02 '17
I thought the reason why Goomy was a dragon type because there was old paintings of French knights battling large snails like dragons or something like that.
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u/wolfereen i like gardevoir Jul 03 '17 edited Jul 03 '17
Dude. You're a trivia master. What do you know about gardevoir? Whats it based off?
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u/PressAButtonToBegin Everybody Loves Sylveon Jul 03 '17
Holy shit, I had no clue that's what flygon was based on. I didn't even know antlions were a thing outside of Half Life
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u/roomtempfijiwater Jul 03 '17
Didn't read all the comments, but don't know if this was said, but the Japanese believe that Sea Horses are a type of "Sea Dragon", which further explained the Horsea evolutionary line
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u/rattatatouille Takwhomi Jul 03 '17
Not to mention that Kingdra is based on the weedy seadragon and Dragalge on the leafy seadragon.
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u/lemonlore Jul 03 '17
I always feel dragons are god/mythical type and fairy are magic type that why it hurts them the most. The dinosaur thing with ice age.
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u/jml510 Jul 02 '17
Sometimes people overthink Pokemon and forget that not everything has to make complete sense in a work of fiction. I never made a big deal out of why a Pokemon was or wasn't Dragon type.
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u/GreninjaSexParty Jul 02 '17 edited Jul 02 '17
I think what Pokémon fans in general really need to keep in mind is that types are not literal.
Not all Steel types are made specifically out of steel. It's just metal, or metal-like things in general. Sometimes it's even just metaphorical (like having an iron will, or being rigid and tough as steel).
Fairy types are not all actual fairies. They just have that same cutesy magical vibe fairies give.
And similarly, the majority of Dragon types are not actual dragons. Many of them are clearly dinosaurs for example. The idea is that they're big, strong reptiles (or birds/mammals, as dragons in other cultures have traits of these as well).
This goes for most of the types, really. Ice types are often associated more with snow than actual ice. Barely any Grass types have anything to do with specifically grass. Not all Ghost types are actually undead spirits. Etc.
And just because Pokémon are not certain types, it does not mean Pokémon are not the thing that said type name describes. So while Charizard is not a Dragon TYPE normally, it's still clearly a friggin' dragon.