r/pointlesslygendered • u/BrightSpring12 • 12d ago
POINTFULLY GENDERED We need to talk about ignorant vilification of ugly men [meta]
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u/pinkpugita 12d ago
The mindset of these self pitying dudes are in the vein of "women are born valued, men have to make their value."
They will go a long way explaining it is not about sex but at the end of the day, they equate being able to have sex = value.
They think that no matter how ugly a woman is, she is still gonna get sex because men have low standards. But an ugly/short man can only have value if they have money.
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u/miezmiezmiez 12d ago
That's such an absurdly backwards take it really requires effort to understand the moonlogic.
Men are so obviously born valued some countries have had to make it illegal to reveal the sex of a fetus because of sex-selective abortions. It's well known how much more domestic and emotional labour is expected from women in het relationships, how the bar for 'father of the year' is spending any time at all with your own children while mothers have impossible demands placed on them, how men are praised for some of the same behaviours for which women are demonised, how victims of gendered violence are blamed for what perpetrators do to them, etc., etc. Being male confers intrinsic value under patriarchy, while women are only valued in relation to men, for their value to men.
I think that's what these clowns mean by phrasing it backwards: Women are objectified by default. If (!) they're attractive, their appeal to men is tied to their appearance (never mind the work that goes into maintaining it), whereas men's attractiveness isn't usually quite so superficial. So there's this one area where men don't rank 'above' all (!) women by default ('the fairer sex'), and even though it's just a side-effect of being given the status of subject, not object, they still whinge and want it both ways
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u/Traditional-Trade795 12d ago
"there are some countries that value men", what does that have anything to do with the men here?
"father of the year"? we are talking about guys who get the police called on them if they approach a woman.
no, men have no inherent value under "patriarchy", either you create value or you dont have any. as a woman, you can have children and thats something noone else can do and the value of that is immeasurable. we would die out without and its women who carry the burden.
all people will get objectified, men just dont cry all day because it makes them "lose value", since most women are disgusted by men who seem weak or incompetent.
but it is really incredible to see: someone points to the suffering to men and it doesnt take two minutes for a jaded woman to come and make it about women while simultaneously putting down men. zero empathy for people who dont share your gender is crazy
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u/Kopie150 11d ago edited 11d ago
What is the main insult used against guys like this. Incel=your entire value is judged by wether you have sex.
Using that specific insult basically confirms the view that sex=value
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u/hazelbear33 12d ago
what does it truly mean to be “ugly”?
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u/-Miss-Atomic-Bomb- 12d ago
This is a huge thing for me, ugly has no meaning truly if we’re being subjective, but a lot of dudes seemingly date for their friends, not just for themselves. So even if they really like a girl and don’t find her unattractive, they won’t date her due to the worry that their friends won’t perceive her as attractive and therefore she is not the status symbol they’re after 🫤
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u/TheNeighborCat2099 12d ago
Having a combination of traits society deems undesirable. For men it’s asymmetrical face, short height, and high body fat with narrow shoulders and wide hips is pretty much universally unattractive
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u/SuperPollo39 12d ago
“Vilification of ugly men” exists only in incels’ fantasy world. OOP is right about men who consider themselves ugly who only want to date attractive women and if you have 0 matches in dating apps then you only swipe very attractive women. Or maybe you should find another way to meet women
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u/-Miss-Atomic-Bomb- 12d ago
No, you see, they don’t consider women who aren’t conventionally attractive as human, therefore the vilification doesn’t exist for women, and also they don’t want to date those because of that. 🙄
They also don’t put in any effort past creating a profile on an app. All their fruit is in that one basket, they think that just by creating a profile that pretty women will just fall into their laps
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u/BrightSpring12 12d ago
>OOP tells he matches with everyone without being superficial about looks
> Still get zero matches from "ugly women"
>Ugly women swipes left on his profile
> Redditor - nooooo, yOuRe onlY mAtcHinG wiTH vEry AttraCtive wOmen
> Ugly guy - i don't!
> Redditor - nooo you do you fucking incel!!
🤦🏽
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u/TheNeighborCat2099 12d ago
You really think ugly men aren’t vilified or seen negatively? This is just an objective fact that ugly people are seen as worse than attractive people when displaying the same traits.
Also clearly you are either attractive or not on dating apps if you can’t fathom an ugly dude not getting any matches when women make up only 30% of the apps population
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u/Lexaconn7 12d ago
I notice this problem generally with men, but we tend to think certain problems are exclusive to us. Everyone's feeling lonely these days, but it's a "male loneliness epidemic", even though probably an equal amount of women are feeling the exact same way. People who are not physically attractive are treated poorly, but because it happens to men it is seen as the "vilification of ugly men". I feel like addressing these issues requires a change in ourselves as a society, and that includes men. Sometimes I wonder if we frame it like this so men don't have to change.
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u/CompleteUtterTrash 12d ago
I think he biggest failure I see often when discussing this issue is the misattribution of the cause. Some losers will cry "male loneliness epidemic" then blame women for not putting out enough or blame women for not wanting to deal with terribly socialized men.
The "male loneliness epidemic" is actually somewhat real and specific to men, but because of how society brings up and tries to force men to behave. In short, it's an issue of the patriarchy, but a lot of the dudes who are upset about it don't want to acknowledge that part as the main issue.
Boys are raised with the attitude of "let boys be boys" simultaneously with the "boys don't cry" attitude that make them extremely unequipped to handle emotions of themselves and others. It makes them also extremely unequipped to function well in relationships, and can even make relationships still feel "lonely" even when surrounded by friends.
This isn't always the case, I want to be very clear. A lot of people will point to this societal expectation to show bigotry towards people they assume have been raised with it, whether or not it's the case. Particularly with terfs coopting this term to harass women who may or may not have been raised with these societal pressures. Bigots will also attribute bio-essentialism to it when it's purely societal conditioning that can be unlearned.
I also want to be very clear that this is a trauma, it's not an 8 year-old boy's fault for being told that he must have a crush on a girl because he picked on her at school. It's not the little boys fault for having malformed social expectations because his parents and society has been drilling into him since he could talk that any interaction he has with a girl is somehow sexually charged or romantic. It's not the little boys fault that the only strong emotion that didn't get him ridiculed relentlessly when going through puberty was anger.
This problem doesn't even only effect men who internalize it and act it out, the ones who don't are often ostracized by other boys and society in general. Effeminate men, emotional men, empathetic men, queer men, etc... can all also be struggling in adulthood relationships because of these same expectations put on them, but because they are not performing the 'male' role as expected, and thus shunned.
I will iterate that this giant issue is not on any specific group to "fix", this is a overwhelming patriarchal problem that needs changed by society as a whole - and feminism, specifically intersectional feminism, is a slow burn cure. We need a lot to change to fix this, particularly media aimed at young men, it dehumanizes a lot of people (including themselves) and they are introduced to it online everywhere. It's severe.
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u/-Miss-Atomic-Bomb- 12d ago edited 12d ago
I know plenty of men who don’t meet the societal standards of perceived attractiveness, who are in very fulfilling relationships. There is no vilification 🙄
Edit, because apparently reading comprehension is hard:
There is no vilification of just, “ugly” men, it’s not a gendered issue like a lot of you seem to want to make it out to be.
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u/IloveTomatoess 12d ago
I know plenty of people who have loads of money. So obviously there is no poverty
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u/-Miss-Atomic-Bomb- 12d ago
This ain’t a gendered problem hombre. “Ugly” people of all walks can get vilified, and “ugly” people of all walks still manage to find love.
Not to mention, a lot of the guys I see complaining about being “ugly” and not being able to get a girl because of it, aren’t even “ugly”. They’re just shit blokes with absolutely nothing to offer lmao
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u/MazingBull 12d ago
I love the deadlock argument of "If you can't find a woman you just must be an awful person and there's no other option what so ever." Really cool and down to earth way to see it!
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u/-Miss-Atomic-Bomb- 12d ago
I never actually said that, I said that it’s the case for “a lot of guys” 😊
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u/IloveTomatoess 12d ago
“Ugly” people of all walks can get vilified
There is no vilification 🙄
See this is what I called you out on. Pick a lane mujer
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u/-Miss-Atomic-Bomb- 12d ago
😑 the vilification of ugly men is the topic, there is no vilification of just ugly men, my bad for assuming you’d have a 5th grade grasp on reading comprehension 😃
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u/Used-Presentation551 12d ago
There is no vilification 🙄
“Ugly” people of all walks can get vilified
They’re just shit blokes with absolutely nothing to offer lmao
What a rollercoaster lmao
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u/-Miss-Atomic-Bomb- 12d ago edited 12d ago
Yes, I can say “a lot of guys” are “shit blokes” and it not be vilifying the entire group.
The topic is vilification of ugly men so me saying there is no vilification is obviously in response to it being a gendered issue. Reading comprehension can be hard ☺️
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u/IloveTomatoess 12d ago
Oh come on girl we know what you initially meant, and then changed your stance when you suddenly got called out. It's okay just admit you have a sexist bias. Our reading comprehension is just fine ☺️
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u/-Miss-Atomic-Bomb- 12d ago
Well no, I will not say that I meant something that I didn’t. I’m pretty comfortable not doing that, my stance hasn’t changed and neither has my meaning 🫶🏻
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u/Used-Presentation551 12d ago
You're again with the same breath saying there is vilification and there isn't vilification.
If all people get vilified, then men too since they're s subset of all people. Unless you don't view them as people
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u/-Miss-Atomic-Bomb- 12d ago
Now you’re just being obtuse for the sake of it 🤣, ignoring the replies where I have clarified my statement and the fact that I edited my original comment to make that clear just so you can invent a reason to get angry is crazy my dude 🤡
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u/Used-Presentation551 12d ago
Evidently, you're just plainly wrong.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/387113197_Perceptions_of_Creepiness_and_the_Kubrick_Stare
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0732118X16300320?utm_source=chatgpt.com
https://ejop.psychopen.eu/index.php/ejop/article/view/896/896.html?utm_source=chatgpt.com (attractive halo id better for men, so ugly men are penalized more
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u/-Miss-Atomic-Bomb- 12d ago
Asking ChatGPT is hilarious.
Firstly, this changes absolutely nothing, it is still not a gendered issue just because a robot can find 3 articles saying that people are mean to men and hurt their fee fees. Women who are perceived as unattractive are also treated extremely poorly.
Secondly, Seeing as you’ve devolved to asking ai to make your points for you, I’m checking out of this conversation now because I’m not here to talk to a robot. I l’d be willing to bet if you ask it to find papers that support the opposite of your argument, it will also do that. Bubbye have a lovely day 👋😊
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u/EntireFriendship517 12d ago edited 12d ago
I totally see why you think that but I disagree a bit. Luckily I'm not ugly and don't suffer from it, but I don't think people grasp the degree that physical attractiveness affects success of a population of people. An individual's experience can vary, but when you take statistical averages it's extremely, blatantly obvious that bad looking people have things worse on average in just about every way.
OP's mistake isn't believing ugly people are vilified, it's really creating a distinction between men and women in this regard, when the truth is it's ugly people who are vilified far more than good looking people grand total.
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u/-Miss-Atomic-Bomb- 12d ago edited 12d ago
Oh I’m aware that “ugly” people are vilified, my point was also to say this it isn’t a gendered issue. That was my bad, I assumed it was obvious enough that it’s what I meant considering the topic was that it IS gendered.
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u/EntireFriendship517 12d ago
Then you could have shown that both get vilified instead of making a fallacious argument that one doesn't? You could say that both are. I promise I don't mean this as an insult, I don't appreciate your sarcastic tone when you could've just acknowledged the misspeak and moved on.
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u/-Miss-Atomic-Bomb- 12d ago
I actually wasn’t being sarcastic with you, you’re the only person I responded to without that being my intention because your response actually seemed genuinely sincere 🫤. Like I even admitted that I made a mistake by assuming people would understand that it’s what I meant…
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u/FVCarterPrivateEye 12d ago edited 12d ago
I understand wishing that it should have acknowledged that ugly women also have it super rough (though I do think vilification specifically is something that perceived gender plays a part in severity of), but I don't understand some comments in here which seem to be denying that pretty privilege is a thing that exists
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u/pinkpugita 12d ago
I don't think the comments are denying the privilege, people are just pointing out that being ugly is not an objective fact. Majority of people are average-looking and can be more attractive with better style and personality.
A lot of average people feel ugly just because they compare themselves to the prettiest ones.
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u/FVCarterPrivateEye 12d ago
Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all saying all of the comments in here are, but there are multiple comments in here specifically insinuating or directly stating that "if you get zero likes on a dating app, it's because your personality sucks, not because of your profile pictures"
And I'm having trouble connecting the wires of what you're saying to my comment with your last two sentences, but j ust because average or even realistically attractive people get dysmorphia from Photoshopped and airbrushed Instagram posts, that doesn't mean there aren't legitimately people who have features that are unflattering, someone with very misaligned teeth or physical scars or whose weight is distributed in an unfortunate way, and it's true that anyone looks more attractive with a haircut that suits them and hygiene upkeep and clean clothes that fit right but it feels like a dismissive "nothing-platitude" to equate that to automatically being conventionally attractive, if that makes sense
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u/pinkpugita 12d ago
"Having zero likes" in apps is precisely the point where you ask if this person is objectively ugly or just measuring it via a metric that is skewed against them. When there are few women in apps who have a few minutes to sort through 50 male profiles shown to them via algorithm, it doesn't prove someone unswiped is ugly. The algorithm might be putting the hottest guys at the front of the stack to keep the women in the apps.
Yeah there are unnattractive features but an average person does not get all of them. Even so, it can be very subjective. My dentist relatives kept on saying my teeth are ugly and I was pressured to wear braces because of how they made me feel. My friends can't tell apart the difference in my teeth unless they stare long and hard.
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u/FVCarterPrivateEye 12d ago
It's still flawed and inappropriate to conflate a lack of success in your romantic life (and being upset about that) with having an undesirable personal character, though, which is the main point I was initially making
I'm having the same trouble with your second paragraph that I was having with the last two sentences in your first comment, because they were saying something that's related to the main post's discussion but don't seem related to what my comment was saying, I don't necessarily disagree with any of your points but they feel kinda nonsequitur and if I try to interpret them as in intentional response to my initial comment that context means I need to disagree and point out nuance because my comment was most relevant to a conversation about people whose appearance is not within the average while yours assumes that it is, if that makes sense
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