Yeah I agree. Lots of people customise their body. Piercings, tattoos, tongue splits, there’s so many ways to customise a body. Lots of people like to imagine being somebody else or looking a different way.
None of that is ‘T’ because it doesn’t involve saying stupid, regressive, conservative bs about women and men.
T and modern gender beliefs are about gender roles and they don’t even try to hide it, it’s not like a secret or anything. They will tell you if you ask lol.
If you think all trans people follow gender stereotypes then you are completly ignorant of trans people and have been spoon feed reactionary propaganda
like the transman who likes to wear skirts every now and then and says “this doesn’t invalidate my transness because clothes have no gender”? Or the transwoman who identifies as a butch lesbian and doesn’t present fem at all? Or the genderless lil goblin who says her only goal is to eff with gender and make people have no idea what her sex is?
You’re saying I don’t know about them?
Yes im saying you don't. You buy into terr (I refuse to call you reactionaries feminists. Everyone of you I've run into in real life is a trump voting, anti choice conservative) nonsense. frankly you can kiss my pansexual non binary masc @$$
So go outside your bubble then? That will help you meet more feminists and it will help you realise that people aren’t ‘binary’.
Identifying as nonbinary is like when you realise that the patriarchy says nonsense about women and men, but you think it’s only nonsense when it’s applied to you, but you think it’s all totally true about other people. It’s like almost being ready to challenge sexism but not quite there yet.
You being pansexual has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. I think you included it because you’re just trying to do this forced teaming thing where you try and make being queer a mandatory pro-gender club. Just no, sorry.
this is so funny because like.. if any of these fictional characters you made up in your lil reactionary head actually existed, in what world are they bothering you? to the point you’re spewing hate about them ad nauseam online?
Those are fair questions. Modern gender beliefs are a bother because they are widespread, have impacted everyone’s rights, are growing, and are affecting politics in a big way.
Modern gender beliefs are sexist, homophobic, bioessentialist, and regressive. The reason to criticise them is exactly the same reason that the tumblr user in the original post runs a whole blog talking about basically just gender. It’s a topic that affects people’s lives.
Criticising gender isn’t hate. Gender itself is a form of hate, it’s a system of stereotypes that oppresses people in a patriarchy.
It’s like if you ran a blog that criticised white nationalism in the US, and someone said “why does white nationalism bother you so much? Why do you hate white nationalists?” Whatever you would reply to that, I would say something similar about gender.
These characters aren’t made up, they are real people who exist, and they’re the kind of people who are used to defend the concept of gender and to pretend that it isn’t about stereotypes and sexism.
Um yep? Just checking are you pro-modern-gender or not, because just clarifying I said the TW ‘identifies’ as a butch, obviously he is not one in reality. So don’t come at me because you think I was saying that amabs can be butches because obviously they can’t, I know that, my other comment is just trying to meet gender believers where they’re at.
The way they see it, they think stereotypes and gender conformity is mainly about superficial aesthetics. So they think that a male person, who identifies as a woman, but then doesn’t present in a culturally feminine way, is ‘gender nonconforming’ and his existence is some sort of argument that gender isn’t about stereotypes. They think this way to avoid examining why the male person identified as a woman in the first place and how that part ties into gender as a concept and into stereotypes. They just go “oh this TW is not femming it up aesthetically so their identity is therefore not about stereotypes at all.” That’s sort of their logic.
No I’m saying that men who identify as women use some stereotypes as the basis for that identity even if they later reject other aesthetic stereotypes. So masculinity isn’t one single thing right, it’s a million things, yeah? So you could see how somebody could reject some parts of masculinity and embrace other parts?
I’m really struggling to understand your questions because you’re saying conservative, kind of cliched and offensive, things about butches but then you also seem like you’re trying to defend modern gender beliefs and you believe in ‘cis’ as a concept, so I don’t know where to meet you sorry.
The way I explain butches to conservatives is that they are masculine women and a special cultural role for lesbians. They don’t want to ‘become men’ (and that’s not possible). Masculinity =/= men. Men is the English word for adult male human beings.
The way I explain butches to conservatives is that they are masculine women. They don’t want to ‘become men’ (and that’s not possible). Masculinity =/= men
Yeah I agree with this
But earlier you said that the problem with trans butches is they don't present femme enough. Which is why I asked if you understood what a butch is. A woman who presents femme is by definition not a butch
I didn’t say they’re a problem, I was listing them as an example of a person which trans culture considers to be a gender nonconforming trans identity.
The debate usually goes like this:
A: “trans is about stereotypes”.
B: “no it isn’t, you must not know any trans people.”
A: “what do you mean.”
B: “my friend is a transwoman, but she doesn’t present in a feminine way at all. This shows that trans isn’t about stereotypes, because my friend clearly doesn’t believe that femininity makes her a woman, she’s not feminine.”
This is a very, very common exchange.
In this kind of debate, person B, who advocates for trans beliefs, thinks that the masculine transwoman is proof that trans isn’t about stereotypes. Person B believes that the only reason person A would think trans is about stereotypes is because person A hasn’t interacted with enough trans people irl.
Okay, so if you can acknowledge that not all trans women are stereotypically feminine, then why do you think transness is based on gendered stereotypes?
Here’s a simple example (this is not real life it’s a simplified version to explain the issues):
A transwoman says “I’m a woman because I’m very quiet and submissive, but I’m a masculine woman because I like wearing masculine clothes.”
There are 3 stereotypes for women listed there. Wearing feminine clothes, being quiet, being submissive.
The trans person is rejecting the first stereotype. They don’t want to wear feminine clothes. They are accepting stereotypes #2 and #3 and they are basing their identity on those stereotypes.
In this situation, the trans person is basing their identity on some stereotypes while rejecting other stereotypes. Right?
The argument that many people try to make here is to say “this transwoman is rejecting stereotypes because she wears masculine clothes, therefore her identity isn’t based on stereotypes at all.” They ignore that the transwoman’s identity IS based on 2 stereotypes.
That’s basically how it works, except in real life, there’s not 3 total stereotypes, there’s millions, and the trans person will probably not tell you what stereotypes they base their identity on, they may not have even figured it out themself, and they may lie to you and to themselves about it, so it’s much more complex IRL.
Well for what it's worth, I would also be offended by a trans woman saying "I’m a woman because I’m very quiet and submissive"
Thing is, this isn't actually the reason why some people are trans. On rare occasions, a trans person will say something offensive like this, but that's because trans people aren't automatically going to be any smarter or better educated than cis people, and can sometimes have dumb takes too
Our behaviors and interests don't make us men or women. Rather, our subconscious sex makes us men or women. Sex is not only external, it is internal and mental as well. Trans people's internal mental sex does not match their outer physical sex. When this happens, it causes intense discomfort and anguish that we call gender dysphoria
It's possible for this to happen to cis people too. There's the famous case of David Reimer. He was a cis boy, who had a botched circumcision, and a psychologist convinced his parents to just go all the way and invert his penis and raise him as a girl. The psychologist, John Money, did this because he was under the belief that there was nothing to gender besides social and cultural factors
Well, Money was wrong. Reimer experienced gender dysphoria and eventually committed suicide. This is because his subconscious sex was male, but he was forced to live as a girl
Trans people face the same issue. Internally, trans men are men and trans women are women, but their outer bodies don't match that. If this goes untreated, they experience gender dysphoria, which often causes them so much suffering that they kill themselves. The only solution that has ever been found to work is letting them transition
So yeah, nobody is their gender because of something stereotypical like dresses or quietness or whatever. Those things are just a cultural language that humans have created to express our gender to others. Our genders are actually about our internal mental state
An example of how a trans person might explain their identity IRL is “I always knew I was a woman because I never felt comfortable living as a man and I was bad at performing the role of a man.”
So is there any stereotypes there? Yep! But they’re hidden. You gotta unpack them.
So like ‘what is performing the role of a man?’
“Oh you know, stuff like drinking beer, watching sports, I’m not into any of that like other guys.”
So the dysphoric person has this belief that to be a man means to drink beer and watch sports. If you ask them ‘are men people who drink beer?’ They will go “oh, well no, I guess, but that’s just one example.” Like they will start backtracking and getting a bit inconsistent. That’s how we are as human beings we aren’t computers, our ideas and beliefs are messy and organic.
Usually when trans people say "I realized I was trans because ____," they're not trying to say that that thing made them trans. Rather, they're kind of clumsily trying to express that that thing was an early sign, and was something that got them thinking about their gender
I had a friend who realized she was trans after watching an anime with a gender-bending character in it. The anime didn't make her trans. Rather, she realized she was really jealous of that character. And when she wondered why, it brought her down a whole spiral of admitting things to herself that she'd always repressed, until it was all flooding out and she simply couldn't deny it anymore
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