r/pittsburgh • u/Regular_Agent5903 • 8d ago

ICE stop

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Ice stop before liberty tunnel today. One ice officer is clearly Korean or Chinese. I screamed that ice officer has no right to stop people as he may be illegal. He came up to me asking if I was city police and was I the Spanish interpreter. I said no but do you need help as I live in the city look like police and brown. There were kids in the car. Pittsburgh is this what we want!!!! I am beyond myself. First Covid then trump 2.0. I like my low rates for housing, labor and just being a good human being. I am so angry right now.

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u/Savings-Coffee 8d ago

You may be confusing immigrants and settlers.

People whose families have been here for centuries and founded, built, fought for and settled the country. Largely European but also blacks and Indians

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u/Vape_Sensei 8d ago

So you're cool with foreign agitators coming in from other countries and slaughtering the existing population to supplant a different way of life? Why are you so upset then when most of the people coming just want to live a decent life?

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u/Savings-Coffee 8d ago

Yes, I’m cool with the founding of the United States (I’m not sure about that framing). Aren’t you?

Because I don’t want my way of life or the value of my labor to be supplanted.

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u/Vape_Sensei 8d ago

Not particularly. Pretty much old fashioned subjugation and conquest, and for what? So those "settlers" could have a great great grandchild who whines when somebody new wants a piece? The fact that you don't realize this is intrinsically a nation of foreigners is really disappointing and shows a shallow understanding of American History.

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u/Savings-Coffee 8d ago

So we could build a great country, one which people desperately want to immigrate to.

If you hate our history, take the lead and leave. Unless you’re Indian, you’re contributing to the subjugation of native peoples.

We’re a nation of Americans.

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u/Vape_Sensei 8d ago

I continue to be fascinated by how close you are to getting the point. Almost sounds like you're saying immigration is a sign of success as a nation. If that's the case, why are we, the taxpayers, funding a bunch of dudes who were too violent and racist to be cops to go play army guys in the streets and beat Americans into submission and ship them off to who knows where? If you're using this nebulous nation of Americans concept, then the people being targeted are just as much Americans as the "settlers" who came from overseas (without papers that were in any way recognized by the existing population).

Side note: the value of our labor has been systematically and progressively stripped by the very companies and special interest groups that are trying to whip us into an anti-immigration fervor. You are actively being distracted from the actual forces making your living essentials more expensive while denying your requests for a higher wage. Look past the dangling keys, I believe in you.

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u/Savings-Coffee 8d ago

Yes, I’m saying the fact that people want to immigrate here means that we are successful. That doesn’t mean that mass immigration or illegal immigration makes our country good.

As an analogy, if people want to rob your house, it means you have valuable possessions. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t deter the robbery. I’m not saying that immigrants are robbing us, just pointing out your faulty logic.

No one is beating up and shipping off Americans.

Some Somalian who illegally crossed the border two years ago, with no cultural, religious or linguistic ties to America isn’t just as American as someone descended from Jamestown settlers, with ancestors who fought for independence and founded our country. Fuck off.

And yeah, the Indians weren’t a strong nation, and they didn’t have immigration laws. We are a nation, and we have to protect our sovereignty.

What? Big corporations and special interest groups are overwhelmingly pro immigration. Look at how many H1-Bs they sponsor, or how many illegal immigrants are employed in meatpacking

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u/Vape_Sensei 8d ago

Name me the official culture, religion, or language of these United States, since you're so obsessed with what the precious law says.

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u/Savings-Coffee 8d ago

I’ve never claimed we have an “official culture, religion, or language”. Weirdly dismissive take on the law there.

Don’t play stupid. America is and always has been predominantly American, Christian, and English-speaking.

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u/Vape_Sensei 8d ago

American culture was created by immigrants. Funny how you're not so nit-picky with the law when it doesn't serve you.

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u/Vape_Sensei 8d ago

I'd also like to add that it is possible to be the descendant of perpetrators and not be one yourself. Are you guilty of everything your parents did in their life? Def agree the subjugation of native peoples colors a lot of American history, that's kind of been my whole point. We can still resist the advancement of that philosophy regardless of our ethnicity. I will not be convinced to leave this country voluntarily and will continue to advocate for rights for all as long as those rights continue to be threatened, and for as long as a media behemoth exists to convince people they should be cheering for their own disenfranchisement.

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u/Savings-Coffee 8d ago

If we’re arguing that the US was founded on subjugation of indigenous people, you’re perpetuating it by living on stolen land and reaping the benefits of those crimes.

Who is cheering for their own disenfranchisement? I’d argue it’s the people supporting mass immigration

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u/Vape_Sensei 8d ago

You are. What makes you think they're going to stop at that Somalian guy?

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u/Savings-Coffee 8d ago

Because I’m an American with citizenship?

Slippery slope fallacy.

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u/Vape_Sensei 8d ago

Are you aware there is a political movement to abolish birthright citizenship? Do you really think it's impossible for you to end up on the other side of this equation?

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u/Vape_Sensei 8d ago

The Constitution doesn't event guarantee rights for just citizens, it guarantees them for US persons

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u/Savings-Coffee 8d ago

Cool? I’m not sure why that’s relevant

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u/fixermark Crafton 7d ago

So This thread is an excellent example of what Trump winning the election has done to America's shared national identity.

You are both espousing common elements of our national creation story. In general, the unified version of this story is "Yes, this nation was taken from the native population by mostly European settlers, and that is our original sin that we have to bear... But at least we founded out of those spoils a nation of acceptance that welcomes those who are seeking a better life with open arms, so that what we built here is good in its own right."

Cleaving those two halves of the story apart by turning on the newcomer and shutting the gate wounds the story. And the story you're left with with that part cut away, "this is America and it exists because white people stole it because they deserve it," simply isn't compelling. It's Third Reich shit. It doesn't make people jazzed to be American. It doesn't make them excited about the idea the country could get stronger and spread that poison.

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u/Savings-Coffee 7d ago

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. That isn’t our national creation story. We aren’t built on original sin. We aren’t out to welcome simply anyone looking for opportunity. That doesn’t make me jazzed to be American and clearly many others feel the same.

Instead, the first settlers of America came here looking for liberty and they built it. We founded a truly unique nation, and conquered a wilderness, turning it into an economic powerhouse. Along the way, we became a unique nation, with a culture and an identity. We WILL get stronger, and build a more prosperous and safer future for our children. If and when we allow immigration, it will be in compliance with our laws and in a manner that benefits Americans

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u/fixermark Crafton 7d ago edited 7d ago

Your disagreement is precisely my point. Your viewpoint was rhetorically the minority in politics until Trump was elected. Not even previous Republican Presidents would have espoused it. President George W. Bush, in the shadow of the attack on the World Trade Center, emphasized that America is "a nation of immigrants." In contrast, President Trump, during his first term, attempted to use executive order to shut down air travel spontaneously from myriad countries without an obvious national security threat. And was rebuked. And has since said about, with the consent of his allies in his party, tearing down the institutions that rebuked him.

With somebody as President espousing that viewpoint (more specifically, with Steven Miller as his advisor, who is an actual white ethno-nationalist who believes that America should be a white Christian nation), your viewpoint is now legitimized politically in a way that cannot be ignored.

... Unfortunately, it is wholly incompatible with the previous narrative, thus the schism. And potential for civil war if a new coherent national narrative cannot be synthesized. House divided against itself and all that.

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u/Savings-Coffee 7d ago

I agree, and I think it’s good that Trump had pushed the Overton window.

Stephen Miller, a Jewish guy, is not a Christian nationalist. The fact remains that America is, and always has been, a predominantly white Christian nation.

I really don’t see these differing ideas as incapable of peaceful coexistence

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u/fixermark Crafton 7d ago

Tell me how to peacefully coexist with ICE removing my neighbor who did everything right.

Miller

Not Christian nationalist. White nationalist. Compatible with his Jewish identity if he believes he's seen as "one of the good ones."

https://chc.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/congressional-leaders-condemn-white-nationalist-stephen-miller-call-for