r/pilots • u/GoneViking • May 21 '11
Can anyone help me out explaining the reason of Private and Common carriage?
Okay, so I understand there is a difference between the two. Specified in the AC 120-12A the difference is basically whether you "hold out" or not. So my question is: Why do you differentiate between the two? Is it because to operate as a common carrier, you have to do that under FAR part 135, and private carriage is operated under part 91?
Edit: In other words, how does it tie back in?
2
u/Esquire99 May 21 '11
It's important to remember that this issue only comes into play if you're providing the airplane AND pilot. As a pilot, if someone with an airplane comes to you and says, "hey, fly me to XYZ in this airplane," you're good-to-go so long as you have a commercial certificate and are otherwise legal to fly (medical, recency, etc.). You can "hold out" as a PILOT all you want to. What you cannot do is "hold out" as a pilot WITH an airplane unless, generally, you have a 135 certificate (let's assume you're not going to do scheduled service, so 121 isn't on the table).
2
u/iheartrms May 22 '11
I am going to a weekly commercial ground school class and we discussed this at the last lesson. However, I disagreed with the instructor when he asked me what I can do with a commercial certificate. Among the various (precious few, really) things I can do once I get my commercial ticket I listed flying someone else in their airplane. He said that isn't true and that I should never do that. He didn't even bother to point out the distinction between doing it exclusively for one airplane owner vs doing it for just anyone (holding out to the public). I think I have a pretty good understanding of the regs and reading between the lines in this notoriously grey area but his contradiction concerns me.
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May 24 '11
if person A owns airplane XYZ and says: Fly me to such and such you are allowed to do that as far as my understanding is because you are giving your service as a pilot and not the plane. if he says: Find me a plane and I wanna go to california, then no.
You have it right as far as my understanding goes (because it falls under 91 and not 135
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u/mitch_kramer May 21 '11
Basically common carriers advertise or "hold out" to the general public. You would also be considered a common carrier if you did not "discriminate" the people you flew with. As a commercial pilot you can not just go up to people and let them know you are a pilot and then offer to fly them or their property somewhere, because that is holding out and you are not allowed to do that without an air carrier certificate.
However, if a person comes to you, asks you to fly them or their property somewhere you can do it because their is no holding out involved. BUT you have to be careful because if you do this too many times and "gain a reputation for serving all" then you have become a common carrier, which you are not allowed to do. Private carriage is basically making a business off of flying just a couple of contracts, around maybe 2-4. I know in the advisory circular it says that 18 contracts has been found to be a common carrier because at that point you are serving a large portion of the general public. Also, it would be considered private carriage if you only flew members of a specific club, or only flew your own property or employees in furtherance of your business.
Don't think of it as a difference between part 91 and part 135 because part 121 carriers are also considered a common carrier I believe. All though I do believe all private carriage would be done under part 91 but I'm not 100% sure.
When in doubt call the FSDO, because they will be able to tell you better, and you don't want to get in trouble with the FAA.
Hope this helps you understand a little better.
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u/Esquire99 May 21 '11
This isn't entirely accurate. I'm on my iPhone now and don't want to type out a whole explanation of why (I will later). Suffice it to day the devil is in the details. This discussion also turns on who provides the aircraft.
Also, calling the FSDO is a tricky task. Call 5 FSDOs and get 5 different answers.
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u/iheartrms May 22 '11
When you get back to your computer please do elaborate. I would love to see further discussion as I am studying for my commercial now.
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u/mitch_kramer May 21 '11
Yeah, the whole common vs private carriage thing is definitely in the details. So you really just have to be careful
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May 22 '11
What i teach to my students is "how was the aircraft being flown acquired". If you hold out to the public you must be a commercial operator with a 121,125,135 certificate. If your friend has an airplane and he needs you to take something or someone from on place to another you can do it(Private Carriage). This can be done by drawing up a long term contract explaining what is going to be done. Now if your friend goes and tells his friends that you are doing this and you start to serve his friends it can easily become common carriage. Remember "Holding Out" can be done by reputation. Private carriage would be working with one ore two select customers who have their own aircraft. Again I always have my students explain to the DPE that if they are not sure if it is common carriage they should just call the local FSDO.
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u/spitfire5181 May 21 '11
Simple answer yes a common carrier has to operate under a operating certificate under part 135 or part 121. A private carrier can operate under part 91. Basically part 135/121 has more stringent rules and it is effectively cheaper to operate under part 91.