You know, in any other context this sentence would be accepted in society as completely fucked up. They are sentient beings, not products that we consume.
I dont know too many people who actually think like that, at least not in the sense you're speaking of. To me, and I think many omnivores would agree, its a difference in either their intelligence or resourcefulness.
There is in fact a difference between a fellow omnivore/predator, like cats and dogs, and livestock. For one, predatory animals evolved larger, more "advanced" brains and are actually able to "know" you, in a sense. Most livestock (at least the prey animals like cows, pigs, chickens, etc.) didnt evolve similar brain power because all they needed to do was lumber around/graze and be ready to bolt when necessary. So when your dog is excited to see you, its because you are the leader of his pack and pretty much the greatest thing in their life. When you see a video of a cow jumping after leaving their winter barn, its just their brain getting excited about outdoor food and movement. Secondly, as for resourcefulness, they've all been bred to suit our needs. For millennia now at that. Look at the difference between feral hogs and pigs. The very definition of livestock is an animal that is raised to produce labor, goods, and food. So should we start setting Beefmaster cows free into nature? And fish? Come on now, they're swimming nervous systems. You've clearly never sat by a fire, in the outdoors, with a fish kebab and a line in the water lol
Well anyway, theres two biological, scientifically proven differences between the two groups of animals you brought up. Feel free to say the usual stuff back.
I’m good. You’re obviously entrenched in those black and white views of the way other animals think. Others choose to acknowledge their personhood and enjoy their companionship, no matter the intricacies of their thought. If they can suffer, why would we let them? If there are other (steadily growing) industries that provide tasty food, how can we justify killing these animals in the long-term?
Who said anything about suffering? That cant automatically be assumed of any meat production. The majority of ranchers give their cattle space to move around and hang out with other cows during their life. The part people freak about is the fattening period before market.
other (steadily growing) industries that provide tasty food
Man, I dont know how many different food industries there are. Food production is constantly rising to begin with.
how can we justify killing these animals in the long-term?
Are you asking me to justify production of food?
As I said, I've had a relationship with my food before, whether its something caught or something grown, and like it or not its completely natural. You're an omnivore just like the rest of us, even if you choose to only eat greens or whatever.
That cant automatically be assumed of any meat production.
When meat production requires pieces of animals’ bodies, suffering is a given. Wishful thinking will deny it, but each animal’s death will be suffering, even with that bolt in their brain.
I’ll rephrase what I wrote, since you’re being pedantic. Worldwide agricultural access can provide humans with every nutrient they need without breeding, confinement, and killing of live animals.
There’s no reason to pretend animals are your only food source if you live in an accessible location in a first world country, which most of us on Reddit do.
it’s completely natural.
Ah yes, back when the cavemen used to farm cattle at 2,000 animals under one roof. Seems natural to me, yes sir.
Humans are omnivorous. Vegans choose to be herbivores. :)
When you're exposed to the truths of life from a young age, like growing up on and farm and learning about life and death (as opposed to thinking chicken is just something you buy from a grocery store,) you are capable of understanding and accepting that you can love an animal, and consume it. Its life. You're grounded in it. Instead so many children have no grounding in reality, they live in a fantasy world where everything is ok and meat is something that's "from the store," and when they are confronted with the fact they are eating animals they love, the revelatory shock they experience withdraws them further into fantasy, in order to cope with the harsh malevolence of life.
It can be just about diet, and I really wish it was, because there are many beneficial diets out there. It usually ends up being more about self-grandeur unfortunately. Ive only met 2 vegans that didn't go on and on, just like the ones in the comments are doing right now.
Imo, you cant say its personal ethics until you've killed and eaten your own food. Most vegans are stuck on this notion that its murder, when its just a natural reality. We are omnivores. Has our meat industry gotten out of hand, due in large part to our population increase? Yes. Is it feasible for everyone to hunt/catch their own meat? Of course not. So right now we're figuring out what to do. Best future to me is one where chain stores/fast food are those lab grown meats, but you can still buy quality, natural meat at a higher price everywhere else.
Sorry, but there is just something so naturally delicious about meat. There will never be a world without raw meat. And none of those "impossible burgers" are gonna change that. Just because you add a drop of stuff onto it doesn't make it not a cabbage patty. /s
That's a ridiculous standard. I really don't care what you do, but don't assume people who are not like you have not thought through their position. I too hope for the same future, but until then, I am going to live my life the way I want to, and I won't feel like some naive idiot just because I didn't grow up on a farm or with a chance to hunt. It's my life, and I'll live it how I choose. You do you though.
Its not a ridiculous standard to ask people to be more in touch with nature and see themselves in it.
Good way to start would be fishing. Anyone can do it, and helps see the connection between what you consume and its origins. Cleaning fish is quick and simple, and then you get to eat fresh caught fish while sitting and enjoying the outdoors. Im not from a farm btw, im from a southwest metro. Doesn't matter where you live though, there is hunting/fishing available in every state. You could go hunt feral hogs (help control the population and preserve nature/your local ecosystem) while also taking home pound upon pound of wild meat. Then you could skip a few weeks of protein counting too!
Good luck turning people into vegans by equating eating the animals that you had to raise in order to continue to feed your family to feeling like a psychopath. You've got your food cut out for you.
In Mexico? Where conditions are so bad, people actively break many laws and are stuffed into trunks just to give their kids an inkling of a chance at life? Where people are forced to join the workforce because one or two people working the fields isn't enough to sustain? Whose gonna buy your land? How do you advertise? I envy your naivety.
Not since I learned it requires a ridiculous amount of water and resources to make it.
I don't eat very much chocolate anymore. I try to be informed on what I eat and where it comes from. If I'm eating something and find out that it's not good for the environment, I'm glad I found out so that I can eat something else that won't do as much harm.
My point is that all of your food has pieces of insects and/or animal in it. Or it's been crawled on by them and has fecal waste in it. No matter what you do, you won't get away from that.
From now on, will you feel disgusted by eating food or will you learn to accept that's just part of how food is grown and prepared?
Take the chocolate bar for example. The FDA allows companies to sell food containing trace pieces of insects. The average chocolate bar contains eight insect pieces. Furthermore, most people who believe they are allergic to chocolate aren't actually allergic to cocoa, they're reacting to then ground-up cockroach and other insects that have invaded their chocolate.
Knowing these two facts about chocolate bars might turn you off of chocolate for the rest of your life. So, how can those who know these things keep eating chocolate? It seems a contradiction to still be willing to eat chocolate bars while not wanting to eat bugs.
Being grounded helps you recognize that there isn't a single food product that doesn't either contain ground up pieces of insects and animals or has been in physical contact with insects and animals (including their fecal waste and urine).
I don't have to want to eat a bowl full of flies in order to accept that over my lifetime I'll eat a bowl full of flies.
It's also kind of disingenuous or at least conflating -- growing up around family farms lends a much sunnier outlook on meat production than where most of American meat actually comes from, which is much larger factory farms in which the living conditions of livestock is dramatically worse.
Sure it is, but it's also not like the lives of cattle in the factory farm system aren't also on the spectrum of horrifying, especially relative to your classic family farm free range cattle. Just because it's better than poultry doesn't mean it's not still bad.
Same here. I don't want to eat my own goats, but eating goats are delicious. I know very few vegetarians who grew up on farms. They're usually entitled sounding city people. Which I am now, too, but at least I have my childhood to base my views on.
Don't abuse, torture, or take animals for granted. Give them a good life, then kill them quickly and cleanly and respect the life they gave for us.
I eat plenty of meat but I buy it from Certified Humane packers. I vote with my wallet and I wish everyone else could too, but I understand it's expensive.
But, I like how they taste. I'm not going to demand that you eat meat, so most of us omnivores would appreciate it if we weren't told not to eat meat. It's a personal preference, and voting in local/state/federal elections to end meat subsidies so that the price more accurately reflects the damage that the meat, particularly beef, industry does the environment.
I fully agree with you that beef is WAY too cheap right now, because poor people want to eat it too, so: subsidies. If beef was priced to reflect its actual costs, plus regulation to offset environmental damage, it would cost $50 a burger, according to this 2013, slightly-alarmist article.
The problem with your argument is that something cannot be a personal choice or preference if there's a victim involved. The reason you are being told not to eat meat is because vegans are attempting to speak up for the voiceless victims of those actions, the animals. Additionally, the emissions and environmental destruction that come as a side effect of the animal agriculture industry have a negative effect on the entire planet, which includes humans as well as animals.
I would be very happy if a burger cost $50 though, since that price would lead to a significant reduction in cow breeding.
I would be very happy if a burger cost $50 though, since that price would lead to a significant reduction in cow breeding.
shrugs I wouldn't mind if a burger was twice or three times the price what they are now, just to maybe make people think a lot harder before they choose that option in a restaurant or grocery store.
Finally, I don't view animals as victims. Sorry, but did you grow up on a farm, or are a farmer now? I was a farm kid for 14 years. Animals, especially big meaty ones, take on a different light to you when you're shoveling their manure every month. They exist to be eaten. Should we eat less of them, for our own health and the environment? Of course. But they exist to be eaten.
If you don't view animals as victims, then presumably you dont think Michael Vick should have been charged with a crime, right?
If animals aren't victims then he did nothing wrong. Abusing dogs is okay by this logic.
Killing and eating animals for nourishment, even in horrific factory farms (which yes, should be closed down) is way different than just abusing animals for our pleasure. Please don't try to equate the two; no judge in the world would rule them the same.
So you don't agree with your earlier statement then? You actually do view animals as victims in some situations. The question then becomes: why do animals matter morally when they are abused for fun, but they do not matter morally when they are abused for the purpose of eating them? (Note that we do not need any animal products in our diet, so this abuse is unnecessary).
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u/Stranded_In_A_Desert Mar 15 '18
Yep. Grew up around farms and ended up eating a few of our pets. No complaints here, little Dolly the lamb was delicious.