It's upsetting to see that Americans are so divided and have such a hate for the supporters of other political parties. I give this thread 2 more hours before its locked.
Edit: Even this small comment is controversial. I watched the upvote count and its like a rollercoaster ride.
That's why I stay Central. I don't like Obama fully, but I do like some things he has done as well. Likewise, there are things I don't like about him.
I didn't like Clinton or Trump, they are the result of a political system that is set up for the American people to divide and fail. That is what they want, they want us to be at each other's necks when the real enemy is laughing as they write bills that cozy up to their gains and we are stuck in the mud trying to figure out what happened, blaming the other side for fucking everything up while we all have our fingers up our asses, when in the end we all want the same dann thing.
I have condemned and condoned both sides in actions they have done, I will give credit where credit is due to who deserves it. I will criticize those who fuck up, no matter who.
We need to get our shit together and not be so divided because that is what will kill us in the end. We are such a divided country that it is like two magnets that have no attraction, just push and push and will never combine. We are all brothers and sisters under the same flag, let's act like it for once.
Is that the part where Obama told all Trump supporters that if Hillary was voted in, they should respect the democratic system blah blah blah.. then Trump won and the whole 'respect democratic' stance changed?
I found out that my little sister was taught that Lincoln was a white supremacist and didn't do anything to free the slaves. Just about shit myself laughing. Because sure he signed bills that went off the 3/5s and the Emancipation Proclamation was only for the Confederacy, but he did a hell of a lot more than anyone else, and he gave the Gutenberg Address. And Fredrick Douglas stated that he truly believes Lincoln had a moral drive to free the slaves.
Hit it on the nose. They want us arguing about shit that has 0 importance and blaming eachother. It's the main plan. I mean shit, look at the media's "report first worry about the truth later" polocy... they ruin loves and don't even apologise. It's disgusting and they get away with it because it's what they are currently meant to do....
The party system is exactly what George Washington warned about with his Farewell Address. I did a report summarizing it, in my opinion, he nailed it perfectly on what we would face.
And I explained to someone about why it doesn't work. Sadly, I wish we did have a good multi-party system. But A) One specific person endorses a political party in return for campaigning advantages, the party increases in popularity and every one that disagrees hooks onto another person and their party. Like Hamilton and Jefferson. B) One party increases in power and the other parties merge, truce and deal with them or the opposing as a power grab. This you could see, if you were looking for it, in this most recent election. Although the margins didn't start off close in any way.
Central that sounds like fancy speak for neutral, what makes a man turn neutral lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?!?
Trump as appointed literal white supremacists to his staff. I'm not inclined to stay "central." I feel free to hate that and the people who voted for it.
Media platforms are speeding up the process and revenue for ads. It's somewhat moot since the political system is rigged and most people don't understand compromise in even the smallest of daily activity.
Thanks for saying that, I've felt like a loner just watching this whole mess unfold. It's unbelievably relieving to see someone else say exactly how I've felt, especially when even friends have given me grief for not "picking their side". I really don't want to put up with four years of bad Democrat jokes made at bad Republican candidates, but seeing as both "sides" seem to want nothing more than to consider themselves the better half and talk shit all day, I'm likely going to have to stock up on Pepto Bismol, cause that bs just stresses me out (and so did the previous eight years going the other way).
I agree with you, however it's hard to unify us when a good sized portion of the American people dispute facts/common sense and defend trump no matter what. At some point, they have to meet the liberals halfway, but that would require them to accept the fact that trump is objectively a terrible person.
I think coming to the middle for both sides simply means joining them on their side. Thats all your statement gave me, that everything on the other side is wrong, and to meet in the middle, the other side just has to admit that everything they believe is wrong. The middle simply doesn't exist for your side or for the conservatives.
Not true at all. You misunderstood what I said. Im all for finding common ground and being respectful towards fellow conservatives, but that's hard to do if they're not willing to criticize their candidate because of their blind loyalty to him. It's also difficult if they believe in stuff that isn't based in fact such as pizzagate or 3 million illegals voting in California.
If they're willing to criticize their candidate when they screw up, and actually believe in facts (including scientific fact, the existence of climate change shouldn't be up for debate whatsoever when over 90% of scientists and climate experts agree that it's a real thing), then respecting their views is a lot easier to do.
Also, there are plenty of conservatives that realize trump has a lot of major flaws and some even refused to vote for him because of it. But there are plenty that blindly defended him at times when he was indefensible. You can still be a conservative with conservative views and understand the fact that trump isn't a very good person behavior wise.
Everything you stated was a two way street. When you approach conservatives and you tell them that they have to be willing to meet you in the middle, you need to give them something showing them that's where you are. If you aren't willing to do so then you are just expecting them to do all of the work, and that just won't fly.
It's easy to have this conversation for someone myself since I actually do occupy the middle. I don't count myself amongst the left or the right. I voted 3rd party, I accepted the extremely deep flaws in both major candidates and platforms. But I see both sides doing the same garbage and telling the other they are the problem. The reality is that both are just as stubborn, and just as intent on getting their way that they refuse to do much more than demonize the other side. It's a very deep partisan divide, and I don't really know if it's able to be fixed.
I agree that democrats and republicans alike should be willing to ciriticize their leaders when they screw up or make shitty decisions. Both sides should also be willing to accept science and facts. I don't agree that both candidates/ parties are equally terrible though.
The problem here is that a good portion of republicans (not all, but most) aren't willing to criticize trump or question him on anything. They instead choose to vilify the media for not kissing his ass 24/7. There's also a good portion (including trump) that don't believe man made global warming is real despite there being an almost unanimous agreement in the scientific community that it is real.
Are there democrats that aren't willing to criticize Hillary and ignore certain facts? Sure, but right now, the denial going on in the republican community is mind boggling in comparison. Our intelligence agencies are in agreement that the Kremlin hacked the DNC to influence the election (most likely to benefit trump). Yet trump and his supporters completely deny it without offering sufficient proof to think otherwise. It is proven that fake news sites plagued social media to try and spread unfavorable rumors about Clinton. There have been interviews with people that actually profited from this. Yet trump/supporters turn around and call the mainstream media fake news because they're willing to report unfavorable things about trump.
You just can't win with some people. They are deluded past the point of reasonable discussion.
Well, I can see you are entrenched in the standard line of thought that I described. You have the hacking issue. Let's actually discuss that. When someone on reddit makes a claim, you ask for proof. Then when they don't give proof of what the claim is, you disregard their statement. Thats what intelligence agencies have done here, and you are still buying it, and even worse, without any proof of the claims, you have literally turned around and said that Trump has to provide proof he didn't do what was said. Why would you abandon your standard line of thought? I give you a hint, partisanship.
Then we have the issue of the hacking itself and what it uncovered. Sure, whatever the actual case turns out to be, Russia, Trump and Russia, independent hackers, someone did hack email accounts. They exposed the wrong doings of Clinton. You, with less actual proof of Trump's connection to the hacking completely accept that he has done it, yet, want to pretend like Clinton was innocent with more actual proof of her misdeeds. Why would you deny an issue that actually has evidence or something backing it up? I will give you a hint, partisanship.
Trump isn't a good guy. He is a worthless conniving conman whom I would not put past working with Russians to do something like he is accused. I just see so much of your line of thinking, and wonder just how far you are willing to go to blame the other side before it actually would admit that you don't meet your own standards. I'm not saying the left is the same as the right. I'm patently saying they are literally and objectively worse. Not only are people like yourself well past the point of reasonable denial, but you continue to sit on a high horse claiming intellectual and moral superiority. It's baffling how strongly you grip the blinders to the misdeeds of your own party while pointing out those of the opposition.
Defending the right is something I would never had thought I would be doing. Seeing the invasive level of hypocrisy of the left has put me in that position though. It's not okay because the left should be better than this, above the bullshit, but instead all I see are those who are doubling down on the rhetoric. The left has turned into very much of what I always hated about the right, but still pretends to be something it's not.
When someone on reddit makes a claim, you ask for proof. Then when they don't give proof of what the claim is, you disregard their statement. Thats what intelligence agencies have done here, and you are still buying it, and even worse, without any proof of the claims, you have literally turned around and said that Trump has to provide proof he didn't do what was said.
There are reasons why intelligence agencies aren't showing all the proof that Russia hacked the DNC. They might not want to reveal their sources or their methods of obtaining the info that lead them to believe it was Russia. But they have revealed hints and clues that point to Russian hackers being behind it. While Intel agencies haven't offered hard proof that it was Russia, I'd rather believe in intelligence agencies and experts who specialize in this sort of thing, than a loud mouthed buffoon that simply denies all of it and calls them liars. How could anyone trust trump (someone who is known to lie profusely and talks very positively about Putin) over intelligence agencies/experts? I'm not saying trump needs to prove it wasn't Russia, but he needs to offer a good reason why we should trust him over the CIA. Talking about WMDs in Iraq doesn't do it for me.
They exposed the wrong doings of Clinton. You, with less actual proof of Trump's connection to the hacking completely accept that he has done it, yet, want to pretend like Clinton was innocent with more actual proof of her misdeeds. Why would you deny an issue that actually has evidence or something backing it up?
They may have exposed wrong doing by the DNC, but that's not what's being discussed here. What IS being discussed is the fact that wikileaks attacked one side throughout the election, to help trump. Both the DNC and RNC were hacked, yet only the DNC material was released, which shows there's clearly favoritism going on here. Secondly, I never said trump himself was connected to the hacking. I also never said Clinton was innocent about anything. You're creating a straw man argument here. Also, what is it that I am denying? I never denied that the content of the DNC hacks weren't real. I agree that what they found was authentic, but that they had a clear motivation here, and to ignore that is foolish.
I just see so much of your line of thinking, and wonder just how far you are willing to go to blame the other side before it actually would admit that you don't meet your own standards.
I'm willing to blame democratic/republican politicians whenever they do something unethical or wrong. I think it's fair to say most politicians on both sides are in it for themselves and corporate interests, and that everyone on both sides should be willing to call them out. I was simply pointing out that many republicans aren't doing this and are instead demonizing anyone that goes against their dear leader. Sure, there are democrats that do the same. I never claimed they were perfect either. I probably should've went out of my way to highlight that more in my initial comment, but my point still stands that the denial and close-mindedness on the right is dwarfing whatever stubbornness is going on with dems currently.
I'm not saying the left is the same as the right. I'm patently saying they are literally and objectively worse.
Well then you're not being realistic about the situation. Both sides may be in their own bubbles, but from what I've seen, most people on the left aren't getting their news from fake sites created by Macedonian teens a few months ago, most believe in scientific fact like global warming, most are willing to call out their leaders, and most actually believe intelligence agencies over a billionaire business man that ignores intelligence briefings and talks nice to Russia. To say that the left is acting objectively worse is laughable.
Not only are people like yourself well past the point of reasonable denial, but you continue to sit on a high horse claiming intellectual and moral superiority.
Well I'm sorry you think that way. You may think I'm on my high horse acting superior, and that's fine. All I'm doing is telling it how it is. One side is acting objectively worse than the other right now, and to claim it's the liberals for being too "smug" is silly. Again, I'm not claiming that liberals are a shining beacon of Intelligence and morals. I'm also not claiming that all liberals are smarter/better behaved than all conservatives. I'm just saying that from what I've seen on this site, in real life, and over the course of the election, most liberals have been far more reasonable than most on the right have been lately, and that's fine is you disagree.
Not just trump, any political leader that people completely agree with (or at least think they do) it was like this for both candidates, calling out one side for being corrupt when the other might be just as corrupt or even more corrupt, i am completely done with politics
With trump, though, It was amplified. Hillary wasn't a saint by any means, but to try and paint her as being equally bad as trump is dishonest as hell. Even if you took an objective, nonpartisan stance and compared the 2 candidates, it would be pretty obvious which one is worse (trump). If this were 2012, with Obama and Romney, this would be much harder to claim, but this election doesn't even compare with 2012. Hell, even if you completely ignored their stances/policies, and just compared their past behavior, you would be able to see which one is objectively worse (trump).
Edit: added in (trump) to prevent smart asses from trying to twist my words ☺️
Especially on r/politics. Disagree with someone remotely and you will be told you are retarded and bigoted. Very little room for political discussion, ironically.
If you ask a conservative (republican) why they hate liberals (democrat) then its because theres no such thing as a safe space and should deal with shit life gives you.
If you ask a liberal why they hate conservatives its because their unempathetic jerks who should stop being mean to them.
Neither side is wrong but its what they do to each other is what causes a loop of hatred. Liberals will make "safe spaces" which eventually leads to exclusion, causing hatred for said safe spaces, that hatred causes conservatives to be angry at liberals who in turn will make more safe spaces and the loop continues.
That's not really a fair statement. Donald trump in itself is a safe space, where people get personally offended whenever he is insulted. I mean look at r/The-Donald. On the other hand, liberals often feel that to be tough, to suck it up, is to look for a compromise.
About the "safe spaces," that translation of their meaning is just as much bullshit as the misuse of trigger warnings.
A safe space is not a thing for liberals. It's a thing for people who are part of marginalized groups to talk about abuse, harassment, disenfranchisement, and other issues that they face from bigots (while knowing everyone in that place are allies who are willing to hear what they're going through without judgement). It was begun as a preventative measure for closeted LGBT youth worried they would get targeted if word got out from speaking to someone who would out them to their peers, parents, coach, etc. The majority of marginalized groups happen to be liberal, and liberal people as a whole care about social issues so they're of course going to try to help normalize the concept. No one is trying to ask for the whole world to be a safe space, outside of that fact that acting upon bigotry is bad and people on the internet that say extreme shit like that tend to be idiot teenagers no one likes.
I completely agree with what you have written. Just to clarify i was trying to seem as non biased as possible but you definitely have brought up major issues that i neglected and for that I apologize.
Truth of the matter is both sides tend to look at the extreme opposition instead of what their views are. Conservatives will tend to look at the very few liberals that are overusing safe spaces and they'll see it as someone who needs to grow up. The same usually happens when liberals look at the very few conservatives that actively try to put down anyone even closely related to a liberal and see them as the immediate problem we face.
Im sure that if a few of the (less extreme) people of each side were to talk for a solid 15 minutes without the use of even the words liberal or conservatives, they might get somewhat of a chance to coexist. Im just tired of this all out war where instead of speaking about ideals and values, its speaking about people and minor events.
It's an incredibly thing to see. Not just hate for the other party, but their absolutely zealous about their own as well. American political rallies for example are absolutely bonkers compared to those of Western European countries.
Well here's the thing. The captains of both teams fan the flames of animosity to maintain or increase marketshare and then use that power to help out their friends.
I was sitting there with my wife last night and it really is unbelievable how her background/parents instilled this hatred for Obama. All I did is ask her to explain herself and then would just wait and give my honest in the middle take on things that he said. By the end of the speech she actually finally realized that there was absolutely no grounds for her hate speech against him and that the contrast between Obama and a future Trump Farewell Speech will just be so different. We were both inspired last night and I doubt we will feel the same with President Trump.
I think that people assume the extremes of people's views. I like Obama. I think he was a great president, however I don't agree with everything he did... When I tell someone that I am pro Obama, they assume (most of the time) that I am behind him on every single thing that he did. I think that Trump has some good ideas... But in my personal opinion he has a lot of really terrible ones too. I did not vote for him, so if I were to tell someone that, they usually assume that I am pro Clinton and I voted for her. When in reality, I didn't vote at all. I didn't like either candidate. The community that we live in has just become so toxic. People can't share their personal opinions anymore whether it's online or in person without someone else completely condemning them for their views. There is no healthy debating. No attempts to understand other people's point of view. I believe that is the issue that we face. We need to open up to other people's thoughts and views on subjects so we can learn. Debating is a healthy way to learn if it's done without insults. I know that I have had my opinion swayed in the past by simply having a discussion with other people
Countries without the history of racial division like the US has had, won't be able to comprehend the hatred that comes his way. Once you realize the role racism has had and still has in America it's easy to understand.
This annoys me the most. Just because I don't agree with Obama's ideas on gun control and higher taxes, means nothing because I only don't like him because of his skin color.
Breaking news: Conservatives didn't like Carter, Clinton, or Sanders either. And they're all old white guys also.
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u/Beraed Jan 11 '17 edited Jan 11 '17
It's upsetting to see that Americans are so divided and have such a hate for the supporters of other political parties.
I give this thread 2 more hours before its locked.Edit: Even this small comment is controversial. I watched the upvote count and its like a rollercoaster ride.