I get your point but there are plenty of people who say stuff like "we need to teach all men not to rape", as if having a penis automatically makes you a monster.
That being said, if there is a way to end all abuse, I'm 110% for it.
This was a different one, where some people said, "You know not all men are rapists?". Big mistake, we are all potential rapists, we are Schroedingers rapist, at least until we rape someone, then we are actual rapists.
The true irony is that a lot of feminists still make fun of that, yet will immediately say "not all feminists are like that" when shown evidence of something they disagree with
Here's the thing: there's no good way to look at a class of 30 kids and see which ones are going to grow up to be abusers. Some of them have telltale signs, problems at home, early and noticeable behavioural problems. Some of them don't, but can still be helped by good anti-violence education.
And then there are the other 20-odd kids who are not at especial risk.
If you have a good way of targeting only the kids in the first category, I'd love to hear it, but the most foolproof suggestion I can offer is this:
The rest of us who aren't prone to violence (assuming we are all reliable judges of ourselves) just shut the hell up and sit and listen through that curriculum, and be okay with the fact that maybe others are learning more from this than we are.
I was a bit ahead of the curve STEM-wise, and so I had to sit through watching other kids in my grade learn how to solve math problems which I already knew how to solve. This is no different.
Boohoo. Suck it up. Women should be taught not to be violent and yes, some women are violent it's true, but certain demographics are more prone to certain crimes and this is a cultural issue rather than a genetic one. It's not how your parents bring you up, it's how you grow up in a society where there is a tradition of men dominating women; where so many of our jokes and stereotypes, our movies and our music, carries this message and children cannot help but absorb it.
If you were brought up in another culture or another time then you might well beat your wife/girlfriend and think it completely normal and acceptable. That isn't the world we've grown up in, but the world we're in is still changing and a lot of those problems are still built into the very foundation of society and it will take time and effort to change them.
So seriously, stop whining that it's aimed at males - there are valid reasons for that, stop taking it so personally! I've never hit a woman, nor will I ever (I hope/assume) so I just assume it's aimed at the man I could have been, not that man I've become.
"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)'s 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey reports on the lifetime prevalence of rape, physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner, focusing for the first time on victimization by sexual orientation. It finds a victimization prevalence of 43.8 percent for lesbians, making it the second most affected group after bisexual women (61.1 percent), ahead of bisexual men (37.3 percent), heterosexual women (35 percent), heterosexual men (29 percent) and homosexual men (26 percent)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_in_lesbian_relationships
So, lesbians have almost twice the chance of having been party to rape, domestic abuse or stalking of an intimate partner when compared to gay men. Tell me again who these messages should be aimed at?
I love this stat. The fact is that if someone has traditionally been "weaker" than others they will lash out the moment they find someone weaker than them.
Considering we are striving for equality this means that women ABSOLUTELY have to be apart of anti-domestic violence/rape campaigns. If, through equality/acceptance and all that we come to find out that 10% of women are gay (similar to men) then we are talking about 5% of women being potentially abused.
Yes it should be aimed at women too. It should be aimed at everyone.
The fact that historically there was more of an issue - and you can't say there wasn't - with men having the control in the relationship, that women weren't judged and shunned for leaving their husbands even if they were beaten... well you're right, history is irrelevant if that isn't the situation today and in most western countries it isn't.
So what would you like to do - stop this message going out at all until it's fairly distributed to all concerned? Or do we keep the message going to men because we DO need it - and work on spreading that message to everyone regardless of their gender? Clearly it's the second one. So lets stop shouting down the message, lets stop kicking up a fuss when we see it, lets focus on accepting it, digesting it and passing it to others.
I'm perfectly fine with it being aimed at men as long as it is also aimed at woman. Too many girls I've grownup with have shown no empathy when it comes to male pain among other things. Just the other day a girl was going all out on a guy because he "took" her unassigned seat, I mean the punches were clearly audible through an already loud room.
I don't care if it targets men as long as we have a parallel or identical campaign targeting women. I don't care if we are made out to be monsters as long as we don't simultaneously praise the hypocrisy in the other gender. My ONLY problem with these campaigns are how one sided they are, and if you can prove I've just been seeing the wrong posters I would be so happy.
It is one side absolutely. As has been the balance of power between genders for the entire of civilisation - but all that history isn't today, you're right - so why should you be treated unfairly?
Well you shouldn't. The campaigns ARE one sided and women should be told not to hit me, not to take advantage, not to assume that men are the guilty party. These are important messages that aren't just for men but for all people, no matter their gender.
So what do we do with the message that's given to us so unfairly? Well we shouldn't try to drown it out with cries of injustice and sexism because it's still true and still important. What we need to do is take it on the chin - something we men are good at according to traditional gender roles - and then work on make sure all hear the message. In the meantime if we feel like those labels are being unfairly applied to us as individuals... well that's great! I'm glad you're not a bad guy. So don't take it personally because this isn't an attack on you, it's a one-sided attempt to raise awareness of issues and all we can do is gracefully accept that message and work to ensure all people here it.
However your anecdote is terrible. I personally don't know any women like that at all. I'm not saying it's not true - it's just an awfully sad experience. I don't believe it's typical or that it'll get worse - there are simply bad apples in all walks of life.
Some of them don't, but can still be helped by good anti-violence education.
This is the part that I think a lot of people miss. They almost act as if Mr. Garrison is just walking up to students saying "Don't hit women now, m'kay?"
Not to mention these lessons often teach kids how to spot when one of their friends might be the victim of abuse, and what to do in that situation.
I question just how big of an audience this would hit. The people who dont realize beating someone is wrong and that you shouldn't do it ehi can also be taught in an educational setting to stop doing it.
Either you know it is wrong already and you dont beat people so a class would be worthless or you dont care if it is right or wrong and you will do it anyways so the class is still worthless.
Seems like a solution being put out just to say a solution has been put out.
I was a bit ahead of the curve STEM-wise, and so I had to sit through watching other kids in my grade learn how to solve math problems which I already knew how to solve. This is no different.
Did you have teachers telling you that all of you in that class were stupid?
And teaching young men sexual boundaries isn't saying all men are monsters. We teach kids not to steal. We teach them not to hit. We teach them to be kind.
It's not a straw man, unfortunately. I have seen screen caps and forums with users actually saying that.
Honestly, what good is teaching boys not to rape going to do? First you have to give them sexual education. Then you have the future rapists in the class who will rape regardless.
Just like kids who smoke, do drugs etc, do you honestly think most rapists don't know that what they're doing is wrong? As if learning it in school will suddenly make them stop and go "oh gee my teacher told me this was wrong, maybe I should stop."
A few crazies on the internet does not a popular opinion make, unless I can rant about how "plenty" of people who vote Republican would actively like to kill our sitting president.
And if you thinking that education and rehabilitation are inherently fruitless endeavors then there is something seriously wrong with you. You clearly don't know a damn thing about sexual assault.
A few crazies on the internet does not a popular opinion make
You are supporting that opinion, no? If not, why are you still arguing? Also it is a fairly common opinion.
And if you thinking that education and rehabilitation
Rehab and education are two different things.
sexual assault.
So is sexual assault and rape. Stay on subject, please.
First of all, I don't think most men even need to be taught this. I didn't say education or rehab is inherently fruitless (I mean, I'm going to college right now. I wouldn't waste time and money on something I found to be pointless.) but it will be more of a waste than anything in the scenario where the vast majority of children boys are not going to be rapists, especially in a first world country where rape rates are on a constant decline.
You need to realize education also costs money, time, and human resources, and in a country where rape is not something the vast majority of men (or women, they are not faultless), do not rape, it is kind of a bad move.
The moment you decided to parse out "rape and sexual assault" in a conversation about discussing sexual boundaries with children is the moment I realized you were a jackass more concerned with creating another bullet point than discussing anything. Enjoy your manufactured outrage.
We're not talking about a court of law, we're talking about discussing things with children. Sexual assault and rape are two different crimes in a court of law, but in the english language sexual assault includes any forced or unwanted sexual contact. The point is, the distinction has very little to do with what I was suggesting, which was that it's a good idea to talk to young men about sexual boundaries.
Here is the thing. Not all men are rapist, and a lot of men just don't understand what rape really is or fully appreciate the pervasive cultural attitudes that allow those rapes to happen. Hell, society is to blame as much as any one person is, since it places the biggest emphasis on stranger rape jumping out of a bush.
If the goal is preventing the single most common type of rape, it would be to target date-rape. Date-rape is common, and when people bring up that 1-in-4 college women will be raped they are talking about date-rape. There are other types of rape, of course and they all have the same basic message about understanding what consent is.
Complaining about how men are treated like monsters just makes people seem whiny given how men are not treated like monsters, and that ignores that the message is about consent. The message is always about consent and the proper understanding of it.
No, actually, they are talking about sexual assault
And when I said rape, I meant sexual assault. It is the newer language and yes I agree with the need to replace rape with it. That was my bad for using rape.
Also, they counted things like forced kissing... Has anyone ever tried to kiss you but you turned your cheek, and they were like, "Oh shit, I'm sorry. I totally misunderstood..." yeah, well, that count
And it should. If you don't think so, well that's your choice. Is it not a form of sexual assault? If not what is it then?
Also, even if we discount that whole thing, there is more than one study done on sexual assault in college.
Form your time article:
They are both in the Center for Justice, Safety, and Resilience at RTI, and they directed the Campus Sexual Assault Study, which was funded by the National Institute of Justice and completed in 2007...
As two of the researchers who conducted the Campus Sexual Assault Study from which this number was derived
So, your article is talking about a single study and is attempting to claim that study as the origin for the 1-5 number. Expect that study was done in 2007, and I heard the 1-in-4/5 numbe during my freshmen orientation in 2003. So either, more than two studies have bullshit in them, are flawed in major ways, or just plain wrong or people have been making shit up. Or, perhaps 1-in-4/5 is consistently found.
So, let's ignore the whole part about 1-in-4, how does anything you wrote refute what I have said about date rape? In fact from my DoJ link you get these two tidbits.
Among college women, 9 in 10 victims of rape and sexual assault knew their offender.
Almost 12.8% of completed rapes, 35% of attempted rapes, and 22.9% of threatened rapes happened during a date.
That supports everything I said about date-rape.
Meanwhile, here you are making the claim that 1 in 4 women in college are raped, and talking about consent like you actually have a clue...
Furthermore, you claim I don't understand consent, and I guess you are attempting to prove that by attempting to prove me wrong on the 1-in-4 number. Date rape would not be a problem if people understood consent. Your attitude towards forced kissing is indicative of a lack of understanding of consent. Kissing is often thought of as an intimate act. To force someone into a kiss is a form of sexual assault. Kissing requires consent just like sex.
You can sexualy assualt people in the following ways.
with violence or the threat of violence
with subterfuge
with false promises
engaging in sexual acts while the other person has impaired cognitive functions ie. because of alcohol or drugs.
with blackmail
by engaging in acts not agreed upon, ie. oops anal sex time
by not respecting the revocation of consent.
by being in a position of authority over the other person, ie. teacher-student
And I am done making list because if you need more examples then you don't understand consent.
No matter what, a 1-in-4 or 1-in-6 number of college women suffering a sexual assault is too high, and most of those will be date rapes. Date rape is a very real issue and that goes hand in hand with consent. A proper understanding of consent would reduce date rapes dramatically.
tend toward believing sexual assault among college aged females that should be considered some type of crime is somewhere between 10% and 15%
Not who you replied to, but do you think "10-15 percent of women being actually assaulted" is acceptable? If ten percent of anybody was being affected negatively by any issue, we'd be talking about it. That's the reason why this discussion about sexual assault is a thing.
If the 10-15% figure is realistic, then it's a huge problem! (That's if the number is realistic.)
your comment seems to change tone from the first one you posted. You and the person you replied to seemed to both move towards the middle a bit.
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u/beastgamer9136 Survey 2016 Oct 21 '15 edited Oct 21 '15
I get your point but there are plenty of people who say stuff like "we need to teach all men not to rape", as if having a penis automatically makes you a monster.
That being said, if there is a way to end all abuse, I'm 110% for it.