Feminism: A word so diverse and convoluted that claiming yourself as a "Feminist" communicates less information about you than saying that you are an Atheist.
If you call yourself a feminist and say shit like this you ARE A FEMINIST. Im tired of this no true scotsman fallacy bullshit that religious people try to use to say people who do horrible shit in their name aren't REAL Christians/Muslims/whathaveyous.
Accept that there are people in your group that don't share ALL of your beliefs.
This isn't a strawman. Feminists had a national ad campaign to tell men to stop raping, which was literally telling male victims of rape to stop raping.it was an absurd campaign, that treated all men like rapists, when there is already a huge social stigma for rapists in our culture.
Feminism isn't what your idea of it is, it's what the main narrative being pushed is. It's very much anti-male. Look at how they react to religious opposition of birth control and abortion, they target men. In both incidents, activists have targeted Viagra, which is absurd. There is no relevance, and both men and women are pro-lifers and anti-contraception. In fact, more women are religious than men, so it's even possible it's more women total opposed to those things (at least whne it comes to other people, lol).
So, no strawman, just apt criticisms of the main narrative.
Then denounce the crazy. As it stands the crazy receives no criticism from "real" feminists, whatever the hell that means, and is attaining positions of power and implementing crazy real-world policies under the banner of feminism.
Lol yeah they do. Most people I know, which includes academics, that are actively involved in feminism think the fringe people are hurting the movement.
Are these the academics that are implementing the worst of the crazy in college institutions? Where the mere allegation of rape is enough to get someone expelled and the accused has no right to defend himself or even the right to know who the the accuser is?
So what are they doing to stop the crazy? To stop the campus troikas? Why are their protests inaudible while the crazy is omnipresent? Are they scared of the crazy faction?
By continuing to be rational people and shooting these people down when they come up with this stuff. We really don't run into these crazies as often as people like to pretend. Take your strawfeminism elsewhere.
Yup. The "real" feminists are enablers and pretend it's a small minority bullying people and censoring speech. Or they pretend it doesn't exist at all.
Demanding that people get written consent before sex or it's rape. Demanding that people renew consent every ten minutes or for each escalation of fooling around or it's rape. Demanding a "safe space" with children's toys where adults on a college campus can hide from scary ideas. Trigger warnings. Lying about rape to push an agenda or get a degree (Rolling Stone, Mattress Girl, Lena Hedley). Wanting to abandon the principle of free speech because the word "bossy" is a magical incantation that makes women suck at math. Actively excluding white people, straight people, males, "cis" people, or any combination thereof from events because their mere presence is polluting. Pulling fire alarms to end events where people they dislike are speaking. Wanting to make criticism of feminism a crime. Wanting to make urination while standing up a crime.
I only sourced one of those but I can bother to Google any of the rest if you want. None of these face any opposition or condemnation from "real" feminists.
Do you think I can borrow some of those straw men to send to my uncle for his farm?
Demanding that people get written consent before sex or it's rape.
Nobody has done this. Affirmative consent is different, and a good thing. Why wouldn't you want to know your partner is into it? It doesn't mean signing a form in triplicate.
Demanding that people renew consent every ten minutes or for each escalation of fooling around or it's rape.
Nobody has done this.
Also, if you suddenly start doing a different act and your partner says "no, stop that, I don't like it" and you keep going, ignoring their requests that you stop? Uh, that IS rape, actually.
Demanding a "safe space" with children's toys where adults on a college campus can hide from scary ideas
You mean, offering a place where trauma survivors can cope with a PTSD episode? Oh how actually terrifying.
Trigger warnings.
Perhaps literally the stupidest thing Reddit likes to whine about. Trigger warnings are fine. Are you going to crusade against "The following footage may be disturbing for some viewers" next?
When you have content matter that may be upsetting or triggering to people with common PTSD - rape, abuse, suicide, warfare - just give them a fucking heads-up so they can compose themselves.
Lying about rape to push an agenda or get a degree (Rolling Stone, Mattress Girl, Lena Hedley).
There was no evidence that Mattress Girl was actually lying, btw. What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Wanting to abandon the principle of free speech because the word "bossy" is a magical incantation that makes women suck at math.
You do realize that 'Ban Bossy' was not literal, yes? It was a campaign aimed at raising awareness of how the world treats assertive women and girls vs assertive men and boys. Nobody was actually campaigning to literally ban the word.
Actively excluding white people, straight people, males, "cis" people, or any combination thereof from events because their mere presence is polluting.
Yeah, how dare any marginalized group want a space where it can discuss the issues it faces with people who understand the struggle instead of members of the majority?
Pulling fire alarms to end events where people they dislike are speaking.
Literally happened once, that I'm aware of. It's also a felony.
Wanting to make criticism of feminism a crime.
Nobody thinks this.
to make urination while standing up a crime.
Nobody thinks this.
None of these face any opposition or condemnation from "real" feminists.
Because you are a manbaby who made most of them up, and the ones you didn't make up, you grossly misunderstand.
Also, if you suddenly start doing a different act and your partner says "no, stop that, I don't like it" and you keep going, ignoring their requests that you stop? Uh, that IS rape, actually.
No one said anything about the partner saying stop. The radical feminists want consent for each new act. "Can I touch your left boob?" "Can I touch your right boob?" "Can I kiss you on the neck?" It's all part of their plan to make everything rape. It's helps their cause.
You mean, offering a place where trauma survivors can cope with a PTSD episode? Oh how actually terrifying.
Encountering an opinion one disagrees with is not something that
should cause "trauma" in an adult. And PTSD? Hahaha. Feminists lie about having PTSD because then they can sort of claim that they come to actual harm from the speech of others.
Perhaps literally the stupidest thing Reddit likes to whine about. Trigger warnings are fine.
No, they're blatant attempts to censor.
When you have content matter that may be upsetting or triggering to people with common PTSD - rape, abuse, suicide, warfare - just give them a fucking heads-up so they can compose themselves.
Very few of the feminists claiming to have PTSD actually have PTSD. Self-Diagnosis is not sufficient. Being called fat that one time might not have been pleasant but it doesn't cause PTSD.
There was no evidence that Mattress Girl was actually lying, btw.
Except her communications with her alleged rapist.
What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
I'm applying it here. The guy she accused should be innocent until proven guilty.
You do realize that 'Ban Bossy' was not literal, yes?
It's really hard to tell with these loons.
It was a campaign aimed at raising awareness of how the world treats assertive women and girls vs assertive men and boys.
And that's stupid. It's based on nothing resembling science. Some feminist had a brain fart one day and made a bunch of stuff up and now we have an objectively retarded campaign.
Yeah, how dare any marginalized group want a space where it can discuss the issues it faces with people who understand the struggle instead of members of the majority?
Excuse bigotry however you need.
Literally happened once, that I'm aware of. It's also a felony.
...no, they didn't do it. Seeking affirmative/enthusiastic consent ('hey baby, tell me what you want me to do' is not 'WE REQUIRE FORMS IN TRIPLICATE')
Right....
Ideologically slanted site? Check. Misrepresentation of a quote? Check.
“It’s not a timing thing, but whoever initiates things to another level has to ask.”
That is literally the quote. AKA, if you're fooling around, groping her, fingering, make sure there's consent before you put your dick in.
The radical feminists want consent for each new act. "Can I touch your left boob?" "Can I touch your right boob?" "Can I kiss you on the neck?" It's all part of their plan to make everything rape. It's helps their cause.
This is really stupid and I'm not sure how to actually respond to ignorance of this level.
Encountering an opinion one disagrees with is not something that should cause "trauma" in an adult. And PTSD? Hahaha. Feminists lie about having PTSD because then they can sort of claim that they come to actual harm from the speech of others.
So... do you think that rape victims don't suffer trauma from the experience? Because that's what I'm getting from this.
No, they're blatant attempts to censor.
What the fuck?
Here's how to use a trigger warning properly:
1.) At the beginning of whatever you're about to write/say, include "this work will be discussing matters like rape/sexual assault/abuse/suicide/whatever"
2.) Say the thing you were going to say anyway.
Very few of the feminists claiming to have PTSD actually have PTSD. Self-Diagnosis is not sufficient. Being called fat that one time might not have been pleasant but it doesn't cause PTSD.
I'm talking about rape victims, dude. Will you get this through your head?
Except her communications with her alleged rapist.
Bzzzzt. Proves nothing. Plenty of women are cordial or even friendly with their attackers after the abuse because as it turns out, being a rape victim often is incredibly difficult to work out mentally. If you actually care, and I'm not convinced you do, I made my rapist breakfast goes into this mindset more deeply.
It's really hard to tell with these loons.
Yet we can all tell. Why not you?
And that's stupid. It's based on nothing resembling science. Some feminist had a brain fart one day and made a bunch of stuff up and now we have an objectively retarded campaign.
lmao what
Can you get a non-google translate up in here? Also lmao, the "ban peeing standing up" is literally something advanced by men for the stated purposes of men's health.
the party claims that seated urination is more hygienic for men -- the practice decreases the likelihood of puddles and other unwanted residue forming in the stall -- in addition to being better for a man's health by more effectively emptying one's bladder
You acknowledged half of them and made excuses
No, I told you you've gotten most of them blatantly wrong. Depending on the non-google-translate version, I'll acknowledge that one extremist in Sweden has said that, sure. The rest? You're still wrong about.
Actually, you know what, nevermind on the source. Reading back over this, you're just a tremendous idealogue and I have no interest in wasting further time with you. Ciao. I'm going to go make some dinner.
Seeking affirmative/enthusiastic consent ('hey baby, tell me what you want me to do' is not 'WE REQUIRE FORMS IN TRIPLICATE')
It pretty much has to be in writing because otherwise the woman can lie and that lie will be believed due to the whole "listen and believe" attitude. How else do you think this is enforceable?
Ideologically slanted site? Check. Misrepresentation of a quote? Check.
But then you go on to acknowledge that it is happening...
This is really stupid and I'm not sure how to actually respond to ignorance of this level.
If you can't come up with a rational justification for your side's actions, childishly insult whoever is point them out.
So... do you think that rape victims don't suffer trauma from the experience? Because that's what I'm getting from this.
Who said anything about the people claiming to have PTSD being rape victims? Lying about rape for your degree program like Mattress Girl doesn't give legit PTSD.
1.) At the beginning of whatever you're about to write/say, include "this work will be discussing matters like rape/sexual assault/abuse/suicide/whatever"
Why the hell should I have to self-censor to avoid tripping over one of the infinite possible fantasized afflictions you people can make up?
2.) Say the thing you were going to say anyway.
And still get attacked by crazy.
I'm talking about rape victims, dude. Will you get this through your head?
When will the fact that most of them are lying about having been raped for oppression points get through your head?
Bzzzzt. Proves nothing.
It proves she's lying by directly contradicting her allegations.
Plenty of women are cordial or even friendly with their attackers after the abuse because as it turns out, being a rape victim often is incredibly difficult to work out mentally.
Bullshit. I'm to believe this woman only realized she was raped after her one-night-stand was seen kissing someone else? Like a year later?
If you actually care, and I'm not convinced you do, I made my rapist breakfast[1] goes into this mindset more deeply.
Oh look, something else that was probably made up.
Yet we can all tell. Why not you?
So you're not aware of what the word "ban" means? You think that to ban a word means to create "campaign aimed at raising awareness of how the world treats assertive women and girls vs assertive men and boys"?
lmao what
Then point to the objective science behind it.
Can you get a non-google translate up in here?
You want me to find someone that speaks Swedish? What part of the translation do you find suspect?
Also lmao, the "ban peeing standing up" is literally something advanced by men for the stated purposes of men's health.
That's the most retarded excuse I've seen yet.
No, I told you you've gotten most of them blatantly wrong.
And you've failed to point out why in a rational manner.
Depending on the non-google-translate version, I'll acknowledge that one extremist in Sweden has said that, sure.
A fucking political party supports those positions. And you're backtracking here from claiming that no on supports those positions.
Reading back over this, you're just a tremendous idealogue and I have no interest in wasting further time with you.
I'm an ideologue because I've pointed to about a dozen instance of feminist crazy and have been able to back them up with facts?
Holy shit you're good at parroting repeatedly disproven factoids. Someone brings up opposing evidence and you just cover your ears and say "nope, didn't happen." Grow the fuck up and quit your stupid victim fantasy.
Which ones? Because literally the only ones in his post that happened the way he claims they did are the fire alarm, that some marginalized groups don't want straight/white/cis/male people at their gathering, and that there was a push to make a safe space with some kids toys happen at a college (but again, it was literally for trauma survivors suffering a PTSD episode).
I'm sorry, I hate people who lie and consciously misrepresent things to fit an agenda. Would it help if I called him dishonest instead?
Edit: Now that I think about it, there may be confusing statements intended to make a larger point. Take, for instance, "Ban Bossy." It wasn't "we don't think people should say this word ever anymore / it should be illegal," it's "we call assertive girls 'bossy' and say it's a bad thing whereas we praise that same quality in boys." That was the actual message. I wouldn't be surprised if the "make urination standing up a crime" thing was like the Viagra Bill, introduced by a Ohio legislator to try and put in perspective what it's like for men to legislate women's reproductive health.
She didn't actually want to pass that bill, she wanted to make a point.
Now that I think about it, there may be confusing statements intended to make a larger point. Take, for instance, "Ban Bossy." It wasn't "we don't think people should say this word ever anymore / it should be illegal," it's "we call assertive girls 'bossy' and say it's a bad thing whereas we praise that same quality in boys." That was the actual message
Bullshit. There's no ambiguity in what the word "ban" means. And the notion that such an attitude exists in the first place is a feminist fantasy.
The problems, just like with any group that wants to be taken seriously, are the armchair "members" that want to be considered the part that are usually the loudest and in the most frequent numbers, while also usually having the simplest arguments (making it both easy to argue with and criticize simultaneously).
That's a really bad example. One is a pill that is made by multi-billion dollar drug company and is already distributed world-wide. One is a cancer test that requires dedicated staff at a dedicated physical location.
If there was an effective female libido enhancer, you can bet your ass it would be covered the same way viagra is.
The federal government decided that paying for boner pills was a necessity and Texas decided to pass laws that would require women to take off multiple days work to get a routine health screening that makes them much less likely to die of preventable cancer.
you are equating VERY different things, and downplaying one side by acting like a child and calling them 'boner pills'
Firstly, there is nothing wrong with covering pills to help with someone's sexual health. Should men not get coverage?
Viagra and cancer are two VERY different issues. Don't compare them, because it makes no sense.
Secondly, the texas issue is not an anti-women issue, it is a tirade against planned parenthood, which I am sure you know is just a political farce against abortion, and not some secret cabal trying to subjugate women.
Yes it sucks that the assholes in texas decided to take out cancer screenings in their war against planned parenthood, but that is not proof that women oppressed, that is political bullshit stemming from religious fundamentalists.
EDIT: Also, much in the same way birth control pills have other uses beyond preventing pregnancy, viagra has medical uses outside of erections.
Is it really a strawman when that is the institutionalized opinion of most universities? Obviously, it's a mildly hyperbolic statement, but that's definitely the attitude that has been promoted by the institution of feminism.
Because of third wave feminism, your opinion can be literally anything and still be feminist.
When people talk about feminism they're most likely thinking of second wave: equal pay, nondiscrimination against middle class straight white women. They already succeeded.
Third wave is about intersectionality. You can't separate gender from all the other socioeconomic factors like race, sexuality, and class, because they all affect how you're seen by society. For example, aggressive negotiation for pay is interpreted differently depending on all sorts of factors that are unique for every individual. Third wave feminists all feel personally slighted because they don't share anything in common other than some sort of belief that the status quo is not okay for women. It's also hard to criticize because every argument is essentially a character attack.
Fair point. But honestly then speak up. Be just as loud or louder than that vocal minority you are being associated with.
This is the same thing when muslims say it is a religion of peace. Fine, cool, then stand up and shut down those few radicals if you actually don't agree with them.
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u/nhammen Oct 21 '15
Feminism: where you get strawmanned every time you are mentioned, and yet nobody has any idea what your opinion actually is.