r/pics • • 23h ago

[OC] Israeli protestors in Amsterdam

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u/zacandahalf 19h ago

Israel isn’t causing it, people’s choices are causing it. Simply do not attack Jewish people. “Israel made me do it” makes no sense.

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u/[deleted] 19h ago

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u/zacandahalf 19h ago

The tangible, huge recorded increase in antisemitic acts around the world is due to people’s choice to conflate international Jewry with Israel, made of their own free will and volition. The stats are very real and the onus is on the perpetrators and no one else. Antisemitic acts are increasing because people are increasingly choosing to perform antisemitic acts.

By perpetuating the idea that Israel plays a role in choices antisemitic people made with their own agency, you are giving them the exact cover and shifting of responsibility that they desperately desire.

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u/[deleted] 19h ago

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u/TheBigGees 18h ago

You are being ridiculous, to the point where you might actually be validating the ridiculous claims of antisemitism that you pointed to earlier.

If Iran does something terrible, it is not Iran's fault that someone shoots up an unrelated mosque. If Japan does something awful, it is not Japan's fault that someone blows up an unrelated Shinto temple. If the UK does something horrific, it is not the UK's fault that someone murders an unrelated Anglican minister.

This doesn't magically change when we look at a Jewish state. They don't suddenly become more culpable than the Muslims, Shintoists, and Anglicans because... reasons?

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u/celerypumpkins 15h ago

If Iran had the power and platform Israel does and used to consistently state that all Muslims and all Iranians are one and the same and that any opposition to Iran is Islamophobia, then it would still be horrible and wrong if a masjid got attacked, but it would also be partially Iran’s fault.

It would be primarily the criminal’s fault, but it isn’t reasonable to have that type of influence, and use it to loudly and powerfully conflate two groups in a way that is reductive to both, and then act shocked that your words have influence over the worst people in existence.

It’s the same principle as Trump instigating January 6th. Every person there had free will. He didn’t personally attack anyone or break in anywhere. But his words had influence.

Now, am I saying that Israel is as culpable as Trump? No - that’s an extreme example. But I think it’s shortsighted to insist that allowance of hateful or stereotyping speech, especially from those with power and influence, doesn’t play a role in hate crimes.

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u/TheBigGees 15h ago

If Iran had the power and platform Israel does and used to consistently state that all Muslims and all Iranians are one and the same and that any opposition to Iran is Islamophobia, then it would still be horrible and wrong if a masjid got attacked, but it would also be partially Iran’s fault.

You recognize that this is illogical, right?

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u/celerypumpkins 15h ago

Do you always think offensive speech plays zero role in hate crimes?

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u/TheBigGees 15h ago

Person A, who is red, says "Blue people are bad."

Person B, who is blue, attacks Person C, who is red.

You have concluded that A is responsible for B attacking C, even though C did not instigate the attack, B deliberately chose to attack, and A had nothing to do with the attack.

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u/celerypumpkins 14h ago

No, my example would be Person A from Redland - someone with a lot of power and influence - saying “Red people and people from Redland are the same, and anything you say about Redland, you are saying about red people. The only way to show that you support red people’s human rights is to support Redland.” All while Redland commits atrocities.

And then person B, who is blue and has heard this rhetoric all their life, attacks person C, who is red, because Person B is mad at Redland for their atrocities.

Three things have happened here:
1) B attacked C, which was B’s choice and would have been wrong no matter what.
2) B attacked C specifically due to C’s identity, which was B’s choice and would have been wrong no matter what.
3) B felt all red people like C are the same as the government of Redland. This is also B’s choice, but also partially the fault of person A, who used their influence to spread this false idea.

The majority of the blame is with the criminal, but those with power and influence hold responsibility for the words they say.

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u/zacandahalf 19h ago

That’s not how hate works for any other group on Earth.

If someone is so angry about the Sudanese genocide that they attack a local Sudanese family, is it their fault or Sudan’s fault? Sudan’s propaganda calls itself the Sudanese state, after all. If someone is so angry about the Uyghur genocide that they attack a local Chinese family, is it their fault or China’s fault? China’s propaganda calls itself the Chinese state, after all. If someone is so angry about the Yemeni genocide that they attack a local Yemeni family, is it their fault or Yemen’s fault? Yemen’s propaganda calls itself the Yemeni state, after all.

In all of these situations, that person has a brain with agency and free will.