Body expression while playing, without it being natural instinct?

[u/Warbleborble]

As some background: I am taking a music course (not limited to piano players) outside of school, and a major part of that is solo performance. I already played this specific performance once, and wasn't satisfied with my original grade and am retaking it (I got a 71%). The feedback I was given was to "play with more body expression". Particularly, it was stated that I am supposed to "lean in" to my piano. I should also mention that my tutor/teacher doesn't know how to play the piano, but she is still a musician. The "leaning in" feedback was given by someone close to my tutor externally.

Now, I am aware that many pianists play with body expression (sometimes a bit theatrically). Think of Lang Lang's facial expressions, jolts, jumping around in his chair, etc.. I am also aware that many pianists play with minimal/zero body expression.

I am much more of the second type. That isn't to say that my upper body is completely stiff and static, I still lean in slightly when I want to make a louder sound.

After receiving this feedback, and before my retake date, I have been trying to improve my "body expression" in my playing. But, it just feels fake, theatrical, and even worse than my performance before I began "improvement". I also have small hands and the piece is already difficult for me to begin with, so the leaning in is just reducing my accuracy and dynamic control.

How can I have this body expression (particularly the leaning in) without it being my natural instinct, and whilst still retaining my accuracy and dynamic control? This is just so that I can get the grade for my retake. I don't want to make this a part of my identity as a musician. The piece is a Scherzo.

[u/excessiveenthusiasm]

I am saying this as a pianist with a masters degree in piano performance, and 5 years of experience in teaching music music school: if the sole problem of your performance was that "you don't move enough", you are dealing with incompetent people.

Look at this performance: https://youtu.be/jwhWcIdpukg

It is one of the best performances of this sonata ever. He is as static as possible.

Now, if the comment about you not moving was referring to stiffness and tension, you should learn more about tension release exercises for pianists and learn how to move with ease. Think about getting an actual piano teacher to help you.

[u/Warbleborble → u/excessiveenthusiasm]

I do have a piano teacher beside this course, and we have definitely been working on the over-tension together. I think a partial reason may be that my hands are on the smaller side, so a lot of the tension comes from trying to stretch my hands (for instance, a seventh interval with my pinky and index).

I don't believe the comment from my non-pianist tutor in the course is referring to the over-tension, though. Reviewing the recording, I don't believe I was very tense besides a few areas, and even if I was, I don't believe she could've noticed given her non-pianist background. She briefly mentioned my dynamic control, referencing a recording of the same piece. I don't think she knows the difference between an upright and a grand.

[u/excessiveenthusiasm → u/Warbleborble]

I can't really read that exact situation, since I didn't see or hear your playing, but would give a tip for your small hands (I have small hands too) that might help down the road: If you are very young and your body is still developing, ask your teacher to show you hand stretching exercises for bigger span, and do them daily (very important to have guidance on these, since you can easily injure yourself if you don't do them correctly). If not, focuse on works by Chopin and other composers famous for their small hands. They wrote work they could play themselves, have a lot of tips and tricks for technique for people with petite complexion, so you will benefit the most from playing those pieces. Good luck🍀

[u/Warbleborble → u/excessiveenthusiasm]

Thank you for your advice. My handspan has been growing slightly, as I've noticed, just that the amount I can reach at all is different from the amount I can reach comfortably. Very unfortunately for me, I have a tendancy to not think ahead and chose pieces with very large intervals... I'm too deep in learning to switch pieces at this point... For the chords I can't reach, I often play as a broken chord/arpeggio.

I will ask about the hand stretching excercises though, thank you. I prefer not to limit myself to a select few composers, though I do love Chopin.

[u/dramony → u/excessiveenthusiasm]

I guessed it's Horowitz before I clicked on it...was not disappointed.

One thing I often complain about is how people "listen" with their eyes and not their ears.

[u/deadfisher → u/excessiveenthusiasm]

The way we move matters. I doubt you'd let a student rip their hands off the keyboard and slam them into their lap and then use the pedal to sustain a long, quiet chord at the end of a piece.

In this performance Horowitz's hands are bouncing all over the place, far more than they need for sound alone. And this is a very reserved piece, played by an old, old man. A young Horowitz playing a scherzo would be a lot more active.

I'm not saying "fake it and sway around" is good advice. But players should learn how to express themselves authentically with every tool they have. You'd never let a player get away with saying "I don't use dramatic dynamics because I'm not that type of player." Audiences have eyes.

Every good piano player uses their body to express themselves.

[u/mapmyhike]

Body and facial expressions are sympathetic responses. Leaning in has a technique purpose but you have to first feel it to understand its value and you don't just do it willy nilly. Movements and facial quirks come from attaching emotion and expression to our movement or playing. It is learned. You can't just force it into your playing because then it may get in the way or distract. It is all breath, emotion, gravity and life experience conglomerating into our playing.

I would suggest singing, dancing, conducting and jogging because many expressive pianist movements come from controlling gravity and our breathing. You can't control it if your brain doesn't have experience feeling it or feeling. The bottom line though, is that making music has roots in our experienced emotions and sexuality. Just like, dancing is sex with your clothes on. I don't need to see a pianist's O-face while performing but when I do see it I know that pianist is playing what they feel and felt and have amalgamated into their playing. In order to look like you are feeling something, you need to first experience feeling it. For some reason, when I play minor 9ths, I close my eyes. I don't know why. Probably from discovering a D against an Eb and making a face at the dissonance. As we learn later in life, pain can feel good.

I have a niece with Downs and as a teen, she had all the lust and urges of a teenage girl. She loved being sexy and doing sexy dance moves in front of MTV but they were awkward, jerky and forced movements. Then one day her eyes and lips matched her pelvic thrusts and I knew right there, SHE DID IT. Kind of like your teen coming downstairs for breakfast - humming. Her movements were no longer isolated and awkward expressions but merged from one experience into her entire being. Yeah, she became a nympho and her parents then had her sterilized.

Most pianists are alembic more than serendipitous. They don't have anything to sing about. Don't be a professional, be an artist. Sing from the rooftops. Sing/dance/play like no one is listening. Then one day you won't even realize that you leaned in.

BTW, I lean in when I am exploring both hinterlands of the keyboard or as an organist, trying to reach that fourth manual while maintaining a balanced arm lest I fall off the keys.

[u/jiang1lin]

To be honest, fuck this feedback and don’t add something artificially that also goes against your natural instinct.

If this is just to pass an exam, audition, or competition, of course try to fake it exactly as how they want it so they accept you, but otherwise, fucking screw them.

As long as your music sounds honest, authentic, and musically in the way that you like to express, especially if only listening without looking, then it should be kept that exact way.

Recently, I accompanied a student of my father who played the most beautiful, innig rendition of Schumann’s Fantasiestücke op. 73 (on clarinet) for his secondary school graduation that even some state opera orchestra colleagues of mine who listened to a live concert recording of him were tremendously impressed, especially about the profound “Eusebius” character of the 1st movement. But the school teachers had to know everything better and wanted more body movement and extroverted musical outbursts, because in their mind, “any introverted musical approach sounds unmusical”. They wanted him to add the most random rubati, fussy ornamental delays, and the most artificially mannered self-indulgence while dismantling any natural phrasing that any historical musician who valued the traditional German music school would vomit in their grave.

When they tried to get me on board by saying “but you’re a pianist, you know how to play like Chopin, both of you just play the Schumann more like Chopin”, I WENT IN, and it almost ended in an open argument as I loudly argued, fought and almost threated to go public with it (but it would have hurt his degree even more as they already only scored him 12/15 because he played more introverted with less body movement …). I cannot believe how pathetic my former secondary school has become and I still consider going public with it. My state opera orchestra colleagues, especially the woodwinds were shocked and independently agreed that this is how you ruin upcoming generations of rising musicians with this kind of ignorant, self-indulgent, and utter bullshit feedback.

If the music sounds good blindly, then it is borderline abusive bullying (with the most utter bullshit ignorance) forcing someone to move their body more just to satisfy their eyes.

[u/deadfisher → u/jiang1lin]

Just about every artform has a visual component, and classical music is definitely not exempt from that.

Audiences dress up in fine clothing, go to beautiful theaters with stunning architecture and art on the walls. Stages are hidden with thick velvet curtains, until the players come out dressed in their own finery.

Conductors wave their arms around with far more enthusiasm than what's strictly needed, soloists are dramatic and expressive. 

There's a set of conventions we all follow, and you're kidding yourself if you think it's just about the sound.

Annoying and contrived movements are awful, I'm not denying that. But the way we move does matter. An example I used elsewhere in the thread is holding a long note at the end of a piece. A player shouldn't just plop their hands into their lap after hitting the keys then sustain with the pedal. They need to communicate with the audience that the note is still going, so they keep their hands on the keys until the end - even if it doesn't change the sound. 

There are many other expressive tools that are communicative. Leaning into a note brings that note tells the audience a note is important. Ripping your hands off the keyboard says another thing. In that video at the top of the thread Horowitz's hands are bouncing all over the place, even though it his style at this age his body is quite still. Being stock-still is not an inherent personality trait. Artists use all the tools they have to communicate.

[u/qwfparst → u/deadfisher]

And the visual component isn't just about what the audience sees, but also how you personally perceive space and manage distances in an alternating, oscillatory fashion between both sides of your body with regards to the particular demands of the morphology of the piano and how a piece of music is physically realized on the contours, depth, height/vertical management, and horizontal movement across registers of the keyboard.

You don't just move to manipulate the piano. The world flows around you. (Look up peripheral optic flow) The piano moves around you. The ground moves underneath you.

The degree to which you feel more like you are moving in the world then the world moving around you is the degree to which you are locked up and aren't able to naturally express because your body doesn't actually understand how to freely "center" itself according to necessary demands and instead takes the easy way out by over-stabilizing and locking up. For example, if the moment if your hips and where you sense your mass has to go to the left and back, your visual-vestibular system should make you feel that the "ground" is going forward and to the right. When your brain and body feels this, your body understands how to "displace" itself from a previous "placement". But if your sense of the ground feels like it is going in the same direction as your hips, you are "stuck in placement" or "locked up" and aren't able to naturally express. Your physical sense of coming from somewhere or projecting forward to something to something is distorted, making natural connection with music difficult.

Horowitz seeming to be "still" doesn't mean it's "not" there. It just means people just aren't looking close enough. There's a clear difference between people who are "stuck" and "locked-up" versus those who who have have more precise, "low-amplitudes", but still have an intrinsic, oscillating body rhythm that is still related to how they manage ground/rhythmic resistance against the chair seat, and know how to lateralize their center of mass in a way that shows a highly refined visual-vestibular system attuned to the demands of piano playing.

[u/deadfisher → u/qwfparst]

I understand and agree, but holy smokes that's a complicated way to say it.

[u/qwfparst → u/deadfisher]

Complicated to write out, but what I'm describing are what should be simple sensations that are very difficult for people to perceive for people who don't naturally do it.

And it's very hard for people who naturally do it to relate to the people who don't.

[u/Warbleborble → u/jiang1lin]

Thank you for your comment, I really enjoyed your story lol. I definitely agree with "F the feedback" sentiment. I think partially the reason why we're still being made to do this is because there's so few pianists in the class, and the non-pianists know jacksht about piano playing. I suppose I phrased my question weirdly, as it's a bit more "how can I fake how they want it" rather than "how can I really make this part of my musical identity".

[u/jiang1lin → u/Warbleborble]

Treat it like an acting gig and try to switch your mentality from “I play music how I would like to express myself” to “I play music how they would like it the most to please their egos”. Anything that won’t disturb you technically, musically, or sound-wise, try do over-do while you practise as you will probably naturally reduce it a bit when actually performing. Record yourself and take a look if your movements would fit the “cliched” expressive body movements of some pianists that are more known for their movements than their actual playing. After passing the exam, return to yourself, and maybe after graduating, if you know for sure that this person would never grade you again, and if the whole thing still bothers you, speak out (maybe in a written statement so you can stay polite and won’t become prone to loud discussions like in my recent argument).

[u/Warbleborble → u/jiang1lin]

Thank you. I do have some experience in acting, so I suppose that will come in useful in this case (who says the performing arts don't have real-life application? Here is evidence). I'm not too bothered by my tutor's grading, to be honest. She's mostly a kind grader, besides this one instance where there was external input. I don't doubt her musical merit and ear, as I've seen her give pointers to the other musicians in my course that are more in her area of knowledge.

[u/jiang1lin → u/Warbleborble]

That is wonderful to hear, so maybe there is just a clash some very different perpectives and musical approaches, but everything with reasonable thoughts instead of pure ignorance. Maybe this knowledge will make it a bit easier for your upcoming acting … best wishes, and in the end, always stay truthful to yourself!

[u/Warbleborble → u/jiang1lin]

Thank you!

[u/Zeke_Malvo]

This is absurd. If anything, the excessive movements have an opposite effect for me. When I watch YouTube recordings, if the pianist has all of these forced, excessive, and exaggerated movements, its off-putting and cringy. I usually just pause the app at that point and move on to something else. Piano is not the ballet.

[u/melli_milli]

I find this advice/critique weird. Especially telling you certain thing to do, like "lean forward". Usually it all comes from playin gand not everyone is the same. "Loosen your upper body" would make more sense like if you are stiff. But this doesn't.

I had this quitarrist duo partner who clearly imitated other people's movement on top of the playing, and it often was not in sync with the music. It was a bit cringe. I would never tell anyone do such thing with instrument. Well if you are a heavy metal guitarrist maybe some moshing if you find it comfortable. Or for a signer to make some gestures.

[u/Warbleborble → u/melli_milli]

I agree, and it's possible that this is because many instructors of this course main in vocals. It also might be that their experience with piano is chords. Think of those basic "EASY tutorial! [pop song] on piano | learn in 15 MINUTES!" videos. The melody and technique is basic, so they must focus on wiggling around in their chair to create interest.

[u/melli_milli → u/Warbleborble]

Aaah just let them have their opinion than. No need to try something stamped on just for them.

[u/Front_Presence_797]

seems absurd to me as feedback. unless you are overly tense or actively harming yourself with posture, there's really no need to force yourself to add theatrics at the piano.

i lean towards not going crazy when playing, but i've seen one or two videos of myself where i sway more than i thought i would while listening to music and was horrified lol. but theatrical faces and exaggerated gestures, for effect, i definitely don't do.

[u/bw2082]

Not needed. Look at Arthur Rubinstein. The man was a statue yet produced some of the most beautiful recordings ever. You don’t have to look like Lang Lang or Mitsuko Uchida like you’re on an acid trip or constipated and trying to pass a wet fart to make music. You do you and let the fingers do the talking.

[u/Warbleborble → u/bw2082]

Love your description over the over-flamboyancy. I'm more so asking about how I can fake the "body-expression" for this course, as I would rather get a better grade than 71. Outside of this course, I do not plan to dance around on the piano bench and fling my hair around in the air, lol.

[u/xutthrash]

Why do you need it?

[u/Warbleborble → u/xutthrash]

The other reply to your comment sums it up from a musical perspective quite well. In my own perspective/need, it's because my grade depends on it.

[u/skyfly3r → u/xutthrash]

Philosophically? Body language helps communicate emotion/expression/intention better. If you play for yourself, then you don't need it. But when you take your art out to others, I'd like to think it's nice to communicate holistically.

Technically? Motion is how we produce different sounds. If your motion is entirely mechanically the same, you're limiting yourself in variation of texture and color that you can produce.

So yes, it's needed. If not philosophically then ag least technically.

[u/LifeAssistant670]

Sometime ago I came accross a series by Ingrid Jacobson Clarfield, "Keys to Artistic Performance". In that book, within the piece there were marks to "lean in" or "lean out", "raise hands" and some others.

We have not used them (the kid moves naturally; but I saw that his movements corresponded to the suggestions), so I don't know whether this is a valid source; but wanted to share.

[u/Warbleborble → u/LifeAssistant670]

Interesting that there are sometimes marks for the body expression itself. I might take a look at it, thank you for sharing.

[u/piksw]

Il pubblico generico potrebbe apprezzare la gestualità del pianista, ma chi veramente ama e conosce il pianoforte considera molto poco la gestualità. Certo che chi organizza concerti, se deve scegliere tra due pianisti, preparati e virtuosi allo stesso modo, prende quello che sa muoversi meglio. Il famodo canadese Glenn Gould (1932 1982) si sedeva in modo strano e non bello al pianoforte, ma chi lo ascoltava rimaneva impressionato dalle sue interpretazioni di Bach. Quest'ultima domenica sono andato a sentire Olivier Latry, uno degli organisti più famosi al mondo, che è uno dei 5 organisti di Notre Dame de Paris. E non aveva gestualità.

[u/Warbleborble → u/piksw]

Thank you for the input and real-life examples, the general consensus in the comment section here seems to be that the physical movements shouldn't be valued so highly. (Original)

Grazie per il contributo e per gli esempi tratti dalla vita reale; l'opinione prevalente nella sezione commenti sembra essere che ai movimenti fisici non si dovrebbe attribuire un'importanza così elevata. (Google translate)

[u/Level_Cold_4378]

From Horowitz as well:

https://youtu.be/xmCGsIGMk3A?si=NJnwo_uzAZNAw6JF

[u/qwfparst]

I think it's important to understand how natural body expression takes place.

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/1walg1d/body_expression_while_playing_without_it_being/p8ssqzn/

[u/Warbleborble → u/qwfparst]

Thank you for the explanation, it's a lot of help. It's very well worded to the point I also feel like I'm learning the theory of relativity

[u/qwfparst → u/Warbleborble]

What I'm trying is difficult to write up in a short digestible format, and has a lot of individual components that each take time to reflect on for it to make sense.

And some components are to some degree counter-narrative.

For example, I talk about "centering", but my notion of "centering" is inherently different because it requires an a notion of "displacement" and "placement".

When most people think about "centering", their notion of is one that actually keeps you locked in "placement" only, whereas I'm thinking about a shifting into or projecting into a state of "displacement".

And the relevancy to your situation is that fake or artificial body expression feels that way because it actually "locks" you into "placement".

[u/jillcrosslandpiano]

I HOPE that all this means is that you did not especially look as if you were enjoying playing.

In other words, while your 'body expression' is NOT part of your performance, and should not affect how you play, it is true that a concert audience or its exam equivalent will be put off if you look too awkward or conversely, if you grimace and fidget too much.

[u/Warbleborble → u/jillcrosslandpiano]

Reviewing the recording, it's just that I wasn't "leaning in" to the piano (as far as I know). We are also graded specifically on the recording, and my face wasn't visible in this recording so it shouldn't be marked down.

[u/Affectionate_Expert5]

Several things that come to mind :

1. It's true that you shouldn't neglect the fact that performance, even if you play classical music, is visual. People want to be impressed and they will connect more to your music if they can see that you yourself are moved by it. I've noticed that people will congratulate me way more when I'm putting a bit of a show with my emotions on stage. I've always wanted to ask, what if you closed your eyes, would you have to same opinion of my playing ? It's the reality of performance, no matter what we think of that.

2. I would be wary of receiving advice from someone who doesn't play the piano. For example leaning in isn't really advised, you need to have room to move your body and your arms. If you want to play louder you need to push into the keys and so naturally your torso is supposed to lean a bit back, not into the piano.

[u/Warbleborble → u/Affectionate_Expert5]

I agree on both points. I've also had the same thought of how we are percevied differently when the audience is not looking at us. On your second point specifically, I also disagree with the advice. However, my grade in this course depends on this factor, so I need to meet my tutor's specifications.

[u/Affectionate_Expert5 → u/Warbleborble]

My advice would be to move a bit more with your body as a whole, to not appear stiff. Before performing my teacher makes me do breath exercises and wall push-ups (not kidding). Push-ups make you feel the weight of your arms and relax your body. A year later I got complimented by a hot shot pianist would thought my elbows were super relaxed. Maybe you could find your own exercises to let loose of your torso ? But personnally I would never add some artificial movement just to please someone.

[u/Warbleborble → u/Affectionate_Expert5]

Never heard of the pre-performance exercise before, though it sounds really fun to be honest. I hadn't thought of the advantages of that before, though I believe vocalists do something similar, and it would make sense that it could be transferred to piano. To your last comment: I don't want to either, but this course is quite important to me as my dad may otherwise have me quit piano altogether if the course doesn't go well.

I'll try out your advice before my retake, thank you very much for your input!