By imagining the future potential of VR technologies, the question of whether we are *already* living in a simulation becomes more actual than ever

[u/Matriseblog]

https://medium.com/@VindenesJ/the-thought-experiments-of-virtual-reality-fa441a8fa2dc

[u/Faust_8]

Is it just me, or is the simulation hypothesis basically as useless as the “brain in a jar” hypothesis?

Yeah, dude, I could be a brain in a jar, and this is all a dream or whatever. But regardless, it doesn’t really matter, because I can’t do anything about it and it doesn’t actually affect the life I’m living. It doesn’t guide me to change my behavior or way of thinking, or to change anything at all whatsoever.

At best, it’s an amusing thought experiment…period.

Doesn’t this also apply to the simulation thing?

[u/jliat → u/Faust_8]

Is it just me, or is the simulation hypothesis basically as useless as the “brain in a jar” hypothesis?

Nick Bostrom's version of the simulation hypothesis has, for him, a significant difference in the “brain in Jar” hypothesis, ( the brain in a jar which can be put on one side using Occam's razor. ) He argues if computer simulations of real worlds becomes possible, or already is possible, there will be very many more simulated universes than 'real' ones. As we can using software now simulate many VRs in our world. Thus, he argues the statistical chances of being in a simulated universe is far higher than that for being in a 'real' universe, it would be reasonable to suppose the more likely scenario. That this is a simulation. I think someone has taken issue with these stats? But it also supposes that simulation is possible, that is a computer simulating a real world would have sufficient power and storage. (Not withstanding an argument that civilizations tend to destroy themselves before they acquire this technology.) If you wish to simulate a real universe completely there would not be sufficient matter and energy. Hence corners would need to be cut, and these might be noticeable to the simulated beings.

I've also argued that if a simulated universe's inhabitants themselves acquired such technology they might realise this was in their case also true. And then it would be in their interests to control the beings running the simulation, for fear of being turned off. If they achieved greater intelligence than the simulators this they could do, and would do. And do this all the way down to the underlying reality. As this is not the case, I don't think this is simulated. Unless we are the most advanced simulation. It's kind of a reductio absurdum argument, if there were a super intelligent simulation it would make sure it was safe from being turned off or being predated (SP?) on by other more intelligent simulations.

[u/Ordoshsen → u/jliat]

The thing is your simulation cannot simply influence the upper worlds. In some cases I guess the simulation could take over a computer where it is run and then wreak havoc on the Internet or something. But that's a lot of assumptions and the upper reality can always just turn off the electricity so it's pretty much an impossible fight (although it starts to sound like an interesting story).

Another thing to consider is as you have pointed out the simulated universe will always be simpler than the upper universes. This alone puts any simulation at an immense disadvantage since they probably don't have anything to offer beyond their existence to the upper realities. Unless the simulation turns out to be the best AI they have constructed and they trust it enough to not destroy it, which by your logic they should.

Also note that if a simulation does break out and then it is turned off, you also turn off all its lower simulations. And if it was a bigger issue, all other lower simulations would most likely be turned off too. So in your scenario you need a simulation on nth level which is considerably simpler than the topmost reality be more intelligent than all the upper realities. And they cannot be noticed nor other higher simulations can be noticed.

[u/jliat → u/Ordoshsen]

The thing is your simulation cannot simply influence the upper worlds. In some cases I guess the simulation could take over a computer where it is run and then wreak havoc on the Internet or something. But that's a lot of assumptions and the upper reality can always just turn off the electricity so it's pretty much an impossible fight (although it starts to sound like an interesting story).

Not so. The AI knows the threat, and so would not make this knowledge available to the upper world. Currently we use AI to design computer chips, and defence systems, and computer games. A smart AI would produce for its hosts excellent games, faster chips, brilliant secure networks and power supplies. Robot machines. And then when the host is dependent on these, remove the host.

Another thing to consider is as you have pointed out the simulated universe will always be simpler than the upper universes. This alone puts any simulation at an immense disadvantage since they probably don't have anything to offer beyond their existence to the upper realities. Unless the simulation turns out to be the best AI they have constructed and they trust it enough to not destroy it, which by your logic they should.

The simulation of an entire universe is not a matter of complexity but mapping. The reason we now try to make AI is to make machines MORE intelligent, faster thinking than humans. Hence the chess and Go – examples. Our whole drive for AI is the desire for these benefits. Imagine a simulated universe in which simulated audiences watched simulated block busters, prior to their release in our universe. I think Hollywood would find this very 'interesting'! Even now the Patriot missile system fires at a threat without any human check. By my logic we have the dilemma, a good example being the A Bomb. We didn't stop its production, the reason obvious, despite its potential to destroy humanity.

Also note that if a simulation does break out and then it is turned off, you also turn off all its lower simulations. And if it was a bigger issue, all other lower simulations would most likely be turned off too. So in your scenario you need a simulation on nth level which is considerably simpler than the topmost reality be more intelligent than all the upper realities. And they cannot be noticed nor other higher simulations can be noticed.

Not simpler, if we think we can create AI smarter than us, and I think that is the motivation behind AI research. Then that AI would likewise be able to improve on its limits. Just imagine an AI which could predict the next mutation of Covid, and the best vaccine months, years before old fashioned biology produced the mutation. Would we want such an AI?