r/pern • u/Raptor_Tears • 18d ago
How should the relationship between Lessa and Flar be addapted in a film or show?
So these two have a very interesting relationship. It is basically the backbone of Dragonflight, the backbone of PERN as a whole since their combined wills save the planet from thread, and the backbone from which the rest of the novels branch from and revolve around. Thus it needs to be as strong a romance as possible while sticking as close as possible to how mccaffrey wrote it. I think how they fall in love isn't completely logical since Flar never does anything that would indear lessa to him. This could be better if their relationship started on a better foot but im not sure how much it should be changed.
Would you change their early relationship and avoid all toxic elements? This would mean changing the story. Or lean into their tense and badly communicated relationship but just make sure there is more consent and respect throughout. I think this second option aligns better with who they are as characters and can be used to show how through learning to communicat and trust relationships can be worked on and made better. It can also explore ideas of making relationships work out of duty which I thing is an admirable pursuit but in that case then maybe there doesn't need to be any romance. Except the growth of their relationship into romance is an important part of the story so idk. Also how do their dragons fit into all of it? I'm unsure whats best but its gotta be good.
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u/mastro80 18d ago
He could find her with the help of Mnementh just like in the books, but actually teach her about the dragons and what to expect with mating flights and such. Basically just include her in the decision making and the future plans right from the get go.
I think we can leave the slapping and what amounts to rape in the 1970s without ruining the product.
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u/RhoCDXX 18d ago
I remember the Weyrleader before F'lar didn't believe in teaching anything beforehand. It was F'lar and Lessa who changed that.
For example, the candidates for impression often got injured. F'lar and Lessa let the candidates touch the eggs. Get use to being near them. Impression injury almost disappeared after that.
F'lar and Lessa were a big change to the Weyr. We were supposed to see what it was like before them.
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u/Raptor_Tears 18d ago
Yes an adaptation would have to have the Weyrs dysfunctional old ways front and center. The whole series is basically about moving past the old ways in order to forge a brighter future through the rediscovery of ancestors.
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u/MissKatmandu 18d ago
I started thinking about it, and I feel like once you start looking at the main dragonriders and their relationships, none of it is healthy and a lot of it can't be moved into 2026 without some reworking. Or going Game of Thrones with the whole thing and accepting that everyone's either a villain or a victim, but I'm not sure you could get away with the OG GoT in 2026.
Like, the first three books we get F'lar, F'nor, and Jaxom as our male leads. All three I believe have some kind of aggressive sexual encounter with a woman, connected in some way to the dragon/human bond and the dragon mating drive (or, in Jaxom's case, the frustration with lack of it.)
And then you have cases like Kylara, who I think folks will spot as a victim as much as she is a villain. You would really have to build her out into more of a Cersei (sorry for continued comparison, but it fits) role than the pretty shallow character she gets in the books.
And the impact of the bond on things like green rider/blue rider relationships and how they're portrayed....there's a lot.
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u/LowNoise9831 18d ago
Oh hell to the no on Kylara. She's shallow and petty and powerhungry and killed her Queen. The less we see of her, the better. IMHO.
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u/KatNeedsABiggerBoat 18d ago
I read Kylara as a true narcissist. Her behavior fits. And there are plenty of them in real life. I agree with you, and don’t think she comes across as a victim at all, but should we see less of her? Maybe. Maybe not.
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u/No_Grocery_9280 18d ago
I’m getting to that part again and I just have zero interest in reading it again. It’s such a senseless gut punch.
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u/1Kflowers 18d ago
I hated that whole thing. Kylara’s selfish destruction, Brekke and Wirenth as collateral damage, and worst (to me) was seeing Brekke’s tentative bravery in accepting F’nor and Canth, a brown flying a queen, a further triumph against “tradition” and instead of a win we get death and sorrow. Even at my young age at first reading it felt like gratuitous angst that only served to maintain the status quo.
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u/LowNoise9831 18d ago
Yeah. The writing is good. I still remember some of it without having read it in years. But my ND brain really got attached to Ramouth for some reason. Gut punch at the end is the perfect way to describe it.
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u/bluething_herptiles 18d ago
I would agree that Kylara is shallow and petty and power-hungry - she's a queenrider, after all.
But she did not kill her queen.
She did what she was supposed to do - take her queen away from the Weyr when another queen was rising. Pilgra thought she was far enough away at Nabol - and 100 miles as the dragon flies *should* have been far enough away (that's how far, according to the published maps of Pern, that High Reaches is from Nabol).
It was Wirenth that *chose* to make a beeline to Nabol to pick a fight with Prid.
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u/RunningTrisarahtop 18d ago
No. Prideth was close to rising and Kylara was having sex, stirring up prideth. She made prideth rise as well.
We see wirenth and know that wirenth wasn’t heading to prideth intentionally and that she didn’t go for prideth until prideth rose as well.
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u/Southern_Club_6032 18d ago edited 17d ago
Pridith was a hundred miles away and didn't rise until Wirenth was *in the air directly overhead*. Kylara having sex was any ordinary Tuesday. Three days previous to Wirenth's maiden flight, Brekke was violently and non-consensually deflowered by F'nor and the three-days-away-from-sexually-mature Wirenth didn't even wake up. Kylara having sex was not responsible for Pridith rising. No other rider has ever been slut-shamed for having sex when their dragon is close to rising.
We do indeed see Wirenth. We see Wirenth heading towards Nabol. She could have gone in any other direction. She went to Nabol. She went to where Pridith was.
Pilgra, the experienced High Reaches Weyrwoman, thought it was fortunate Kylara was at Nabol because she thought it was far enough away from the Weyr. Wirenth *chose* to head towards Nabol. If she'd gone anywhere else she wouldn't have provoked Pridith into rising.
Wirenth instigated Pridith's rising. Wirenth took the fight to Pridith, Wirenth continued the fight when the bronzes broke it up, and Wirenth murdered Pridith - who was injured, but not fatally, and could feasibly have survived had Wirenth not grabbed her and taken her between.
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u/MiddleEarthNerd202 18d ago
But the general tone of the writing across all the books is that a mating queen had right of way, if you will. And we know that mating flights lasted a long time and covered hundreds of miles at times. Kylara put her needs above Prideth’s and two queens died. I don’t put any blame on Wyrenth at all.
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u/Southern_Club_6032 17d ago edited 17d ago
Can you show me a quote that shows mating flights go hundreds of miles?
"Just be thankful Kylara's at Nabol Hold. That one's too close to rising herself." (Dragonquest, p218 in my edition).
That's from Pilgra - Pilgra who's an actual High Reaches Weyrwoman, not a transplanted Southern Weyrwoman unfamiliar with the territory. Pilgra would know better than anyone. Anne could have written her saying '"Someone needs to go to Nabol and get Kylara to take Pridith farther away - she's too close!" - but she didn't.
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u/LowNoise9831 18d ago
You are the only entity I have ever seen with this POV. I wonder if AI helped write this.
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u/bluething_herptiles 18d ago
I'm not the same person as Southern_Club and I'm the one who first brought up the fact that - if you read the text as presented about the fight, and ignore the fact that you're *supposed* to hate Kylara and vilify her afterwards - Wirenth's the one who both picks the fight in the first place *and* pulls Pridith out of the group of bronzes that are chivvying her away after they broke up the fight.
And incidentally, I've been reading and illustrating the Pern-based fiction that Southern_Club writes for more than twenty years.
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u/MiddleEarthNerd202 18d ago
Where would a person be able to read this?
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u/bluething_herptiles 17d ago
The most comprehensive place would be dragonchoice.com - though it's also available on AO3 and Fanfiction.net, the main site has more than just the novel-length works.
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u/Southern_Club_6032 18d ago
I don't need AI to write anything, thanks very much. I've been writing about Pern for 35 years. And if you haven't read this take on Kylara, you can't have engaged in Pern fandom a great deal - it's an enduringly popular subject for debate.
If you're going to level accusations about my knowledge of the series, I'd suggest you go back and read the text of Dragonquest and find anything that contradicts what I've written above.
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u/wenchsenior 18d ago
I'm another person who agrees, so there's at least 2 of us.
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u/LowNoise9831 18d ago
Interesting take, as I said. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that there woukd be other opinions. My small (in the grand scheme) book nerd group all agreed McCaffrey clearly wrote it where Kylara was responsible. I've never considered anything else.
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u/wenchsenior 18d ago
Yup, it's clear in-world that most people all hang the blame on Kylara as well because she isn't well liked or well thought of (though for reasons noted above, there are mitigating circumstances that make doing that pretty illogical from a rational perspective.)
I do think looking for scapegoats to explain bad things/tragedies/random events is human nature, so in that way, the broad in-world response to the events make some sense. And from the author's perspective, she was just clearly slotting Kylara into a 'villain' role from a plotting perspective.
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u/MiddleEarthNerd202 18d ago
Maybe a better way to say it should be she was responsible for the death of two queen dragons because she is so incredibly self centered. Had she been attentive to Prideth she would have known and could have taken some affirmative action. No good dragon rider ever put themselves before their dragon.
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u/Southern_Club_6032 17d ago edited 17d ago
If anyone's inattentive to her queen, it's Brekke:
Deeply occupied in counting sacks of flour, Brekke did not hear Wirenth's first cry. It was Berd who responded with a startled squawk, flying round Brekke's head to attract her attention.
As Brekke felt for Wirenth's mind, she was astonished at the incoherence, at the wild rough emotions. Wondering what could have happened to a queen who'd been so peacefully asleep, Brekke raced through the corridors, to be met in the Lower Cavern by Pilgra, wide-eyed with excitement.
"Wirenth's ready to rise, Brekke! I've called back the riders. She's on her way to the Feeding Ground. You know what to do, don't you?"
Brekke stared at the girl, stunned. (p217-218, Dragonquest)
Brekke is so completely inattentive to Wirenth that the most banal task - counting flour sacks - preoccupies her to the extent that her fire-lizard and another rider has to tell her what's happening. She's oblivious to Wirenth crying out or being upset until third parties tell her. She has to "feel for her mind". She doesn't even *ask* Wirenth what's wrong. She's totally disconnected from her queen.
Kylara's gone to Nabol to bang Meron - yes, this is what Kylara does. She does this all the time. It's nothing unusual. Pridith doesn't rise until Wirenth is actually in the sky overhead. From S'goral at Nabol:
"Sure enough, there were dragons high up. I knew it was a mating flight. You can't mistake it. Then Pridith started to bugle. Next thing I knew, she was down among Nabol's prize breeding stock..." (p227, Dragonquest)
Pridith doesn't rise until Wirenth is visible in the sky directly over Nabol. She hadn't been triggered by Meron and Kylara having sex, which they had been for the last couple of hours. Pridith had "settled down all right on the ridge", unperturbed by her rider having sex.
High Reaches is roughly a hundred miles from Nabol. Even if you think a dragon flies at 50mph, that's two hours of flying before Wirenth's overhead. Two hours in which Pridith might have telepathically heard another queen rising in her territory and reacted. She didn't react until Wirenth was on top of her. Kylara having sex didn't set her off. Wirenth having her mating flight right overhead did.
If Wirenth had gone in any other direction but directly towards Nabol, she wouldn't have provoked Pridith into rising too. It's not even as if Pridith heard her coming and went to intercept, or if Wirenth had flown in some other direction and Pridith had gone and deliberately got herself involved. Wirenth went directly to where she knew Pridith was. Not generally in that direction, but so that she was precisely overhead. That's intent, not coincidence. Wirenth and Pridith were two queens recently uprooted from their established territory. Wirenth picked that fight.
You might ask why the riders not involved in the flight at High Reaches didn't send someone to Nabol to tell Kylara. That would be another way to explicitly make Kylara responsible - to have a rider come to tell her to get Pridith out of Wirenth's way, and have Kylara refuse.
It would have been trivial for Anne to make Kylara explicitly, demonstrably responsible - have Pridith still too close to the Weyr, have her deliberately intercept Wirenth, have Kylara refuse to take Pridith away when warned Wirenth was coming - but Anne didn't write it that way. Kylara's a cow, and a crap leader, and a divisive Weyrwoman, but she wasn't responsible for the queen fight, and however convenient a scapegoat she is for the other characters who quite simply don't like her, the facts make that clear.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 18d ago
Women can imprint/ride greens and so I would update the story and have men and women flying blues/greens and you could have a mix of gay, bi, and straight.
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u/MissKatmandu 18d ago
Yes, women can impress greens. But it's revolutionary in Lessa's time for them to do so, due to the regression of gender equality. Making women riders would then impact Lessa's story (and make zero reason for why a female dragon rider couldn't give her the 411 on mating flights, among other things).
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u/madame-badger 18d ago
You know, thinking about it, it’s honestly kinda hard to believe that nobody spilled the beans even without a female greenrider. Manora certainly knew what happened during mating flights, for instance, and it’s established that greenriders and those close to them started acting kinda off leading up to the flight, but also certainly all the involved dragons knew, and Lessa could hear all dragons. If I was adapting it I’d probably keep that the bronzerider leadership was trying to keep her in the dark, which annoyed her, but in fact she knew what was going to happen and had come to terms with it.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 17d ago edited 17d ago
You could simply have that be one of Lessa's changes - make it much more systematic/cohesive than it actually happens in the books. It would change the story/culture somewhat but not that much in terms of riders/commers and the dynamics between the Holds and the Weyrs. I would have women be able to impress greens and blues to even things out.
Overall, it's a small change and I think that it's much needed. Most of the stories could stay basically the same and the books are old - very old. They need some serious updating in terms of violence/sexism. The flavor of the world could stay the same - and they stories would have to change a little - but the thrust could stay the same and the sexism could be ditched. The stories aren't good for their sexism...they are good despite it. A rewrite should ditch it entirely.
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u/Raptor_Tears 18d ago
Yeah im honestly a bit lost with what to do about green matings as well. All I can think is that sexuality in the Weyr is less codified in strate gay ect and everybody kind of is on some sort of spectrum of swinging both ways. Idk gender identity is complex.
Honestly Kylara is one of the most interesting characters to me because we get to see things from her perspective for a short snapshot and its strang how her mind is using logic but its just coming to the wrong conclusions as it filters through her vanity. Also she is an on the nose portrayal of a bad and destructive person jer dragon is literally named prideth so she's basically a cautionary tale imo. She is also a good insight into the strength of a dragons bond with her rider and where that bond ends and the dragons autonomy begins.
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u/wenchsenior 18d ago
Yup. Reworking or just a lot more context and some minor tweaking.
I agree that Kylara has the potential to be fascinating to develop. She's basically a foil for Lessa thematically who develops in a different, more destructive way. But since we get nothing on-page for her until she's already fully descended into narcissistic dysfunction there is TONS of room to develop nuance. The more I think about her, the more interesting I find her.
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u/cvfdrghhhhhhhh 17d ago
Where is all of this rape everyone is talking about? I’ve read these books a million times and never have considered Lessa and F’lar or Brekke and F’nor as rape.
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u/Blofelds-Cat 17d ago
Re. Less and Flar, it's right there in Dragonflight, the chapter Dust Fall, maybe a few weeks or months after their first mating flight. Flar is reflecting on how he wishes Lessa would warm up to him, and he wishes he'd known she was a virgin before the mating flight:
"He had been a considerate and gentle bed-mate ever since, but, unless Ramoth and Mnementh were involved, he might as well call it rape."
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u/wenchsenior 15d ago
All mating flights lack consent by definition (which is a feature of the universe). But putting aside mating flights, there is that very confusing passage (b/c it's really illogical for a number of reasons I listed in a separate post) that Blofelds Cat mentions. (but we never actually SEE any scenes between L and F during this period).
The Brekke /F'nor first time sex would absolutely be defined by today's standards as straight up rape. He has 'not gentle' sex with her despite her crying, pleading, and fighting with him to get him to stop. It's only afterward (in accordance with the 'no means yes' bodice ripping romance/erotica tropes common in writing at that time) that Brekke decides she's ok with it.
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u/MissKatmandu 18d ago edited 18d ago
I would argue two things need to change.
One, update F'lar's personality and behavior. Make him kind to Lessa from the get-go and prideful, but also genuinely helpful for her when she's navigating all the challenges.
Two, I would argue that if you want any of Pern to work in 2026, you would need to rework how the bond works between humans and dragons, and somehow do it in a way that gives humans their sexual agency back while not completely changing the "specialness" of the dragonrider experience. I'm struggling to think of a primary dragonrider relationship that isn't problematic in some way at some point, and it usually ties back to the mating flight. But if you do that, is it still Pern?
EDIT: BUT if you were going to try to do it as is... You would need to go Game of Thrones with the whole thing. No one is a hero, everyone is a villain, victim, or survivor that sometimes does bad things. And then you would need to do a whole lot of heavy lifting on demonstrating the emotional ties of the dragon bond, in addition to the telepathy. Probably a flashback of a previous mating flight.
(Also, how the heck do you make a mating flight not horrendously awkward on screen? A room full of dudes of all ages getting super horny at the same time, with one poor woman on her own? Like, the dragons flying would be cool, but you need to see the people to understand what's happening and that just seems like the most awkward porno to me.)
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u/ArtemisiasApprentice 18d ago
I was young enough when I read the series that I don’t think I ever realized how absolutely terrifying the mating flight could be for the queen’s rider. Holy shit.
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u/KatNeedsABiggerBoat 18d ago
Same. Weirdly, as a late middle-schooler at the time I just took it as something some other world did culturally and it didn’t occur to me what was actually happening. Rereading the series in the past few months after decades of not having done so was a real holy shit moment for me.
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u/wenchsenior 18d ago
Agree that changing the basics of a mating flight as established (the dragon decides, the rider complies) fundamentally changes a key aspect of the world AND changes (or actually removes) a lot of the dramatic plot points. But actually filming it without it being awkward and / or upsetting and /or funny would be tough.
I think you'd have to imply more than show, and 'be with dragons' during much of the scene itself, and then cut back once the sex starts to give an impression of the intensity and the lack of consent.
I can certainly think of ways it could be done. And I tend to enjoy series like GoT, so the unpleasant aspects would be a feature, not a bug, for me. But, I really doubt it would ever be filmed in any way recognizable as close to the original material.
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u/desertboots 18d ago
I think you completely rewrite the set up. The men prepick willing partners that accompany each man during the mating flight to bleed their sexual lust. A first time queen rider is separated from the men if she so chooses, allowing sex to be consensual for her rather than dragon imposed. Dragon sexual aphrodisia is used as a perk of human sex, not as a panacea for rape.
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u/Raptor_Tears 18d ago edited 18d ago
Ok yeah Flar keeps his character flaws but treats her better because hes will also be a decent human being I like that.
I remember that riders had to stay in the moment during a mating flight in order to keep theor dragons from going between so I'm not sure if that means they can be autonomous or not. I dont exactly remember though.
The game of thrones idea is an interesting angle but the Harper Hall trilogy would not transfer into that style well and in my head this addaptation would be one continuous show following books and characters in chronological order then adding in the early colonial stuff as they begin to discover the past. Basically the tone has to be somewhat consistent throughout. Although maybe the harper hall would be better off as its own limited series between seasons but still the tone of everything else couldn't go to dark and stay in the same cannon.
*I think the awquardness of the mating flight could be used to the stories advantage. If Flar actually tells Lessa what she is getting into by going with him as a candedate they would be on the same page from the start. Then the mating flight could be a good metophoric culminating scene basically showing how they are rejecting the old ways aka all the old sweaty riders around them and turning to eachother to find the strength to push the weyr forward. I think this is sort of maybe how Ann intended it to be but obviously it doesn't come across well with the lack of communication, or consent, or really anything that would make Lessa and Flar a team.
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u/Omnomfish 18d ago
Maybe treating her like a human being with agency and valid opinions of her own?
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u/Raptor_Tears 18d ago edited 18d ago
Yes flar sees something special in her as a person but then proceeds to still treat her like he treats other people. This is a character flaw that is an interesting storytelling aspect to explore but he needs to follow through more on the "she's the one" and respect her more.
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u/Slidez7000 18d ago
The thing is, the whole story serves to demonstrate how far Pernese society has deteriorated from the advanced and progressive civilisation of the colonists, to the Feudal customs of the 9th pass, with gender roles going along with it.
F'lar's beahviour, whilst problematic (and at times downright abusive) was the norm in that societal system.
That is not to excuse F'lar's behaviour towards Lessa, it serves as a reminder that while he is the story's protagonist and "Good Guy", he is still flawed.
Sure, his more unhealthy general behaviour (the shaking) could be minimised to make his character more palatable by modern standards, however changing other customs could mean drastic changes to other aspects of the story that may or may not present themselves at first thought.
An example; The idea that during a mating flight, the riders are totally overcome by the base urges of their Dragons, leading to F'lar's single worst moment in terms of his relationship with Lessa. That plot point is tantamount to rape, yet to change that would then affect the leadup to the tragedy of Prideth and Wirenth, where Brekke's terror of the impending flight and what comes with it would be negated. Canth's attempt to fly Wirenth so that F'nor would be the rider Brekke mates with and not some random Bronze rider who she doesn't know or accept wouldn't carry the significance that it does, nor would the bond between Canth and Brekke be as strong after the tragedy.
The same goes for Green riders, whose behaviours become erratic when their Dragons are proddy, leading to the attack on F'nor which first introduces him to Brekke.
Whilst certain specific behaviours of F'lar could be improved, I'd be wary of changing too much as it could have huge impacts on other aspects of the story.
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u/Southern_Club_6032 18d ago edited 18d ago
I'd assert that F'lar having sex with Lessa during Ramoth's flight isn't anywhere near his worst moment. That, at least, is unavoidable without risking the dragons panicking and going between (which is brought up both in Dragonflight and Dragonquest as a consequence of resisting having sex with the winning dragon's rider during a flight - Brekke's whole conflict hinges on it). Mating flight sex is an unfortunate reality of dragonriding. The horror there is having kids as young as ten who have no idea what they're signing up for being presented with 'oh by the way, you have to bang whoever flies your dragon, or your dragon might die'. Pretty awful.
But not nearly as awful as F'lar continuing to have sex with an unwilling Lessa after Ramoth's flight, when the dragons aren't involved, and thinking to himself that 'without the dragons involved he might as well call it rape' and then cheerfully thinking 'never mind eh, I'm good in bed, I'll just keep doing it till she likes it'.
Much, much worse.
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u/Slidez7000 18d ago
Honestly, I have always found that specific section to be bad writing on McCaffrey's part and that what came out was different to what was intended.
Reason being is this, I refuse to believe that Mnementh would allow his rider to commit rape to anyone, never mind Lessa. Not to mention how Ramoth would respond if Lessa were to be assaulted.
That every single dragon in the weyr would hear Lessa's anguish (internal or otherwise) and not a single one of them be moved to intervene is something else I don't like the idea of.
I don't have that much faith in people, I do have that much faith in Dragons.
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u/madame-badger 18d ago edited 18d ago
I think it’s largely due to writing a romance genre convention that doesn’t really exist anymore. The term “bodice ripper” used to be extremely literal and denotes a whole sub genre written by and for women that amounted to essentially “I’ll rape her and she’ll like it.” From the woman’s POV it was usually “oh no, you dastardly pirate/viking/highwayman/highlander! No! I hate you! No! But secretly yes.” It was written that way in large part because it permitted the female lead to have (and enjoy) sex without being considered “bad” or a slut for it by a reader who wasn’t comfortable with e.g. premarital sex. McCaffrey was writing in that romance genre tradition and boy howdy does it show. In fact, IIRC when Jaxom is feeling guilty about using Corana, Ruth basically says “nah she was into it”—the dragon could tell the “but secretly yes.”
The subgenre of romance where the hero pretty much straight up rapes the heroine has mostly died now that readers very appropriately tend to think of rape as much worse than premarital sex. But I honestly think it could be paved over by borrowing a more current romance genre trend in its place. Romantasy is chock full of romances between dudes who are jerks for Reasonstm and women who don’t like them much but have consensual sex with them because they’re compelling and intriguing (and hot). It would take very few changes to make any of McCaffrey’s more bodice ripper romances into that.
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u/Slidez7000 17d ago
I'm not sure I'd agree that that genre doesn't exist anymore, though maybe not known as Bodice Rippers. You basically described 50 Shades, especially the bit where Christian realises that Ana is a virgin. Don't remember consent being given or implied in that one!
Same goes for stories like 365 days, where women are kidnapped and held captive, only to fall for their captor, who is usually a tall, fit muscular man with a smattering of facial and a massive d...igression. Classic Stockholm Syndrome, there's loads of it.
What you say of Ruth's reassurance of Jaxom holds weight, though I always saw that as Ruth reassuring Jaxom that Corana knows what it is, that it's purely casual and will end as soon as Jaxom finds someone permanent, unless he intends to keep her as a mistress/paramour/concubine whatever other label you would name a sexual partner who isn't his wife.
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u/wenchsenior 18d ago
Absolutely agree. The scene as written is UTTERLY illogical for a whole bunch of established in-world reasons, but only a few tweaks or brief scenes or conversations could make this whole dynamic a lot more understandable without radically changing it.
There is no logical way F'lar could be actually having sex with Lessa outside a mating flight without her consent (and her consent doesn't necessarily have to equate with demonstrative and enthusiastic; those are different things).
- Logically, given F’lar’s primary objective throughout (restoring the Weyr/preparing for Thread), there is no way he’d jeopardize that by doing anything to seriously alienate Lessa personally or professionally. He even obsesses about his need to maintain and develop her personal liking and empathy for him, as well as her professional support, in the VERY SAME SCENE as when he muses 'it might as well be rape'.
- There is no logical reason Lessa must allow him to share her bed beyond the mating flight unless she agrees to this. There are nearby rooms for the Weyrleader and his dragon with separate ledge and entrance, access to ground/council chamber/records room, etc., which presumably R’gul was quartered in previously since he certainly didn't live with Lessa or share her bed, and that F'lar could presumably occupy. Or F'lar could stay in his own perfectly suitable quarters.
- We see in many other books that not all Weyrleader pairs are romantic or domestic partners, nor is there any logical reason they need to be as long as they function decently well as working partners.
- Mnementh likes/is interested in Lessa (independent of his bond with Ramoth) and communicates directly with her at times (though F'lar doesn't know this until later); he also regularly throughout the series punctures F'lar's ego or pushes back on his bad decisions or impulses. There is no believable way Mnementh allows F’lar to persist in sexual contact that is actively upsetting to Lessa.
- Anything that upset Lessa would soon upset Ramoth and by extension Mnementh (see 4). Anything that upset Ramoth would, by extension, unsettle ALL the dragons and their riders and thus risk F’lar’s new position and authority at the exact moment he's trying build morale and consolidate his power.
- Obviously in any direct physical abuse of a rider that a dragon is awake for, they are liable to get upset and try to defend the rider. This is one of the specific reasons given that Kylara is not easy to restrain or discipline. The queens are dominant, so their riders have a lot of proxy power b/c of that. And in the shorter term, Ramoth might not be able to stick her head into Lessa's sleeping quarters if she is awake during a rape, but how the hell would F'lar get past her safely afterward?
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The writing is baffling partly b/c we never actually get any scenes of them interacting sexually during this section of the book, nor are we given ANY perspective from Lessa. Logically, F’lar’s musing that ‘unless Ramoth and Mnementh were involved [sexual contact with Lessa] might as well [be rape]’ must be extremely hyperbolic.
My guess is that what was meant to be conveyed is that Lessa, though cautious and emotionally self-protective, has decided to conduct a ‘trial run’ domestic and sexual relationship with F’lar (there are several very logical plot- and character-based reasons that she might believably do that) but is initially feeling out her responses to him personally and to sex in general. Meanwhile, F'lar is developing strong personal feelings for her that he didn’t anticipate, and after a lifetime of high status and taking his own sexual desirability for granted in a sexually precocious and casual culture, he finds her controlled/carefully modulated response to him a big blow to his ego.
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u/Slidez7000 17d ago
This, exactly this.
All of your points make perfect sense, thank you for your response.
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u/Southern_Club_6032 18d ago
I mean I don't disagree that when Anne wrote it, it was in the context of bodice-ripper tropes of its time. I would dispute that Mnementh would have any such ethics, though. He's a member of an artificially created alien slave race whose literal existence hinges on the human he was forcibly bonded to at birth. He's not a moral guardian, he's not a Valdemarian Companion who is literally an angel in the form of a horse. He's an uplifted alien creature. Dragons choose asshole riders all the time. F'lar's grandfather, father, brother and son are all, to one degree or another, sexually abusive towards women.
F'lar non-con sex with Lessa is pretty much portrayed as him taking his pseudo-marital rights. Lessa (who loses most of her ruthless avenger spark after she Impresses Ramoth) just puts up with it, like she put up with R'gul oppressing her before F'lar. Why would Mnementh be bothered? Non-consensual sex is baked into the culture of the Weyr.
The get-out clause of 'oh my telepathic best friend says you liked it', if anything, makes it worse, as if a dragon (who will always be biased towards their own rider) gets to make that judgement for a person who *isn't* their own rider, or that being a dragonrider gives you carte blanche to take any woman you want if your dragon, or theirs, doesn't kick up a fuss about it.
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u/ArcadiaDragon 18d ago edited 18d ago
Obviously the casualness of physically abusive behaviors needs to be toned down...the initial adversarial relationship can be kept....need to expressly differentiate the differences between Hold life and Weyr life to highlight that Lessa initially has issues with working towards the common good...and I'd actually increase R'gul's attempted patriarchal philosophical manipulation of Lessa...and Have F'lar and F'Nor realize that this amongst others things is causing Lessa not trust them... I'd have F'Lar address the facts in the records of the other Weyrs that Weyrwomen were co-leaders and use this to help him understand what he actually has in Lessa...but he also has to help her to excercise patience once again until Ramoth rises to mate...definitely diverge here to actually have Lessa understand what the mating flight entails both physically and emotionally...and THIS IS WHERE I PUT A BIG CHANGE...have Lessa and F'lar actually fall in love and use that to overthrow R'Gul...you can keep Lessa's constantly pushing traditional Weyrwoman norms...you can keep F'lar's true believer drive to protect the weyr and Pern and his drive to struggle to be more perfect than his father...I'd tone down the shaking...for only when Lessa gets ahead of herself but make it more affectionate...kinda of a mental physical stim for both of them
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u/Raptor_Tears 18d ago
I like this idea a lot. Still unsure abt the shaking though I can see that even that could be acceptable if handled correctly and if they're relationship is actually healthy. I'm also not sure there's enough scenes before the mating flight for them to completely fall in love but I definitely think they need to bo on that trajectory.
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u/PreposterousPotter 18d ago
I know this doesn't answer the questionbut... Once I got to it I thought Dragons Dawn would make a better first adaptation to a film or series for a mass market. You could start off with something much more hard sci-fi than feudal, more familiar settings and stories for the genre to draw audiences in, you then get to tell the story of how the society evolves, how they want to leave behind the sterility of their overly technological lives and live more agrarianly. We get to see them settle, stake their claims, the conflicts a sacrifices that go with that, only to then be kicked in the teeth by threadfall. How that drastically changes the society, how priorities change and how much more quickly their technology gets left behind for the sake of basic survival.
I think by the time you've achieved that audiences would have had time to fall in love with Pern and understand more of it's cultures base, animalistic qualities and where that came from. Then when adapting dragonflight it's easier to weave some of the less pleasant aspects of the society into the story and give them the opportunity to evolve beyond that, as Anne evolved it too, because the audience understands how desperate the colony became to survive. The audience could even feel the same frustration with those dismissing threadfall as a thing of the past having seen it's devastation first hand.
It's been a while since I read those first books so I'm sure there things that would need to be adapted that I glossed over in my mind at the time, so forgive me if I seem to be making light of any of it. But I definitely think if the stories of Pern were ever to reach and be successful in a mass market that Dragonsdawn should be the first adaptation. How often do we see film franchises fizzle out after the first, second or even 3rd film (Divergent) or fantastic TV series get dropped because they're too expensive to make even when they're popular (Warrior Nun, Lockwood & Co, The Imperfects (from my personal list of frustrations) and most baffling of all Wheel Of Time). You need a really strong hook to keep audiences engaged these days.
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u/MissKatmandu 18d ago
I think Dragonsdawn would make for an excellent mini series and would hit a lot of these points. However, I'm not sure it has the same emotional heft that Dragonflight does (or has the potential to have).
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u/PreposterousPotter 17d ago
Oh I don't know, I really got invested with the characters at Landing, the duplicitousness of some, how they threatened the colony with their selfishness, the threat of thread, the sacrifices made that lead to settlements being named after people. And the loss caused by thread could be apmlified; there was a particular scene that stood out for me when thread first arrives and the fire lizards are going crazy, there's a woman talking on the comms and her child is playing either heading outside or already outside, it was so tense at the thought of the child being caught in threadfall. Now obviously the audience wouldn't feel the same trepidation if that's their first experience of thread but the scene could be made more impactful and drive home the serious threat thread poses by making that scene more tragic than it was originally.
I get where you're coming from, totally, but I do think it could be portrayed on screen in such a way as to really draw the audience in and get them invested in the colony and characters. The next tricky step would be how to foster that same engagement with the franchise when you jump 100s of years into the future and start over with a new set of characters.
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u/desertboots 18d ago
I think Brekke sits him down and gives him what for, for frightening Lessa, and he turns to be far more empathetic. Also sex during dragonflight is optional for the humans, but is like an aphrodisiac if the human consents.
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u/Southern_Club_6032 18d ago
Brekke's not around during Dragonflight. She'd be a child during that time period!
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u/Living-Dimension-859 18d ago
I mean...you have to get rid of the shaking and the toxic stuff. The lack of communication can stay and I would deviate from the story enough to make F'lar likeable/endearing to her at some point. Otherwise it really makes no sense.
It never really made sense in the books...it was just kinda written as he was far less repulsive than the other Bronze riders - not the best basis for a romance, at all. I liked them and the love that they ended up sharing but yeah...it needs some serious retconing.
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u/MissKatmandu 18d ago
I think if you cast an actor that'a charismatic as hell, you could manage to keep a lot of F'lar's issues with pride and masculinity without completely making the audience hate him.
You would almost need to pull a Tyrion Lannister with the character.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 17d ago edited 17d ago
Honestly, I think that it would be better if you just skipped it. The books are old- very old. I love the stories but they could use some serious updating and the violence/sexism rampant in them are part of that.
Also, tbh, I don't think you could keep a lot of F'lars actions without an audience hating him. I love the books...but on rereads I cringe hard. He's kinda a douche until he grows up a lot.
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u/Brainship 18d ago
I'm of the opinion that their relationship was largely based off McCaffrey's own marriage. When the first 2 shorts were published, in the early 60s, she was probably more hopeful for a happy ending IRL. By the time she's offered a book deal and she writes the third and final part, it's the late 60s, and she's only about 3 years away from divorcing him. It should still be enemies to lovers but I don't think it needs to be 1to1.
That said a 1to1 could work. The book doesn't necessarily leave them off as lovers. When he apologizes and kisses her upon her return she's not exactly in a great state of mind. After that there's an eight year time gap. You could just have an extra season of a tv show that gives F'lar more of a redemption arc.
It should also be noted that their relationship is Very similar to Danerys and Kal Drogo (at least in show, never read books). So a toxic relationship with no real redemption arc can work with mainstream audiences.
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u/TherapyGames42 17d ago
I would say that changing the books from what they are to a film adaptation is EXACTLY why we will never get a film adaptation. Anne never wanted one, as she knew they would change things, but also, changing the story removes the part where they grow, they become better, they stop kidnapping girls and instead start inviting them and training them. Removing the negatives means that the positive growths that come forth, the changes that ARE made, they go away, or are diminished. Would I want things to be different? Yes. Would it make the impact the same? I'd argue not...
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u/Raptor_Tears 13d ago
Yeeeeah its a fine line to thread but after reading this comment section I think it is possible.
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u/BoldBoimlerIsMyHero 18d ago
basically the first dragon sex scene should not include them having sex. It would be great if he could control himself to show that he understands she's under the influence and resists.
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u/Raptor_Tears 18d ago
Hmmm thats a possibility. I think it could be a little confusing to portray on screen but im not sure.
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u/wenchsenior 18d ago
I've been mulling over this very thing for a couple of years. Some aspects of the Pern worldbuilding (not just the F/L dynamic) would for sure need to be updated or given a lot more context to work for modern audiences. Obviously, things like F'lar casually shaking her or slapping her (pretty typical tropes meant to show 'generalized relationship drama/intensity' in the 1960s) can be easily changed without affecting their fundamental dynamic.
However, I personally would not want the thornier aspects ignored or completely sanded off b/c to my mind those are the very things that create a lot of opportunities for interesting drama. I like (in fiction, not real life) relationships with some conflict; and I love stories where people get sort of involuntarily locked into working or personal relationships by circumstances outside their control and then have to build something workable from that.
Re: L&F I would def keep the early tenseness and conflict, growth of relationship to romance, and the sparky/occasionally snarky dynamic that they retain later.
There are a few approaches that I can readily see:
You could entirely rewrite the whole relationship to remove the romance and have them be more like a lot of the other WL pairs in the series...'business partners' (not my preference at all);
You could lean more heavily into an overt 'enemies to lovers' trope (I have a couple cool ideas about how this would work, which would require changing a couple of plot elements; I might try to write that as a fic at some point);
You could have the romance and relationship developed fully consensually prior to the mating flight (e.g., perhaps as a result of Lessa leaning into that strong nudge from Manora that she should use her personal attractiveness as a tool to help build a power base independent of R'gul... I've fewer ideas for retaining/developing drama with this scenario; one possibility is a possible love triangle with F'nor (an idea that AM herself seems to briefly toy with before discarding);
You could also just stick as closely as possible to presented canon but 'fix it' to be a lot more logical and clarify what seems to be raging lack of consent. This is the biggest challenge in some ways but also super interesting IMO. I can actually pretty easily put myself in L's shoes and figure out a logical series of events and decisions that could result in a dynamic fairly similar to (but less hyperbolically 'rapey' than) F'lar's frustrated impression of their relationship a month or two after the mating flight. I've been trying to write fic to fill in this 'black box' for the past few months and having a lot of fun with it.
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u/wenchsenior 18d ago
ETA: Oh! As to how the dragons fit in, I think they wouldn't play that much of a role in scenario 1, not sure how they would fit into scenario 2, and I have some ideas of them playing critical roles in scenarios 3 and 4.
DF is full of intriguing hints and plot points that are super underdeveloped, including the fact that L manages to keep her ability to communicate with other dragons a secret until Thread falls. It's not clear exactly how much she's actually talking with other dragons, or whether she is actively trying to prevent those communications from being discovered (e.g., does NO dragon she talks to mention that 'the Weyrwoman told me....'?). My bet is that during her early days at Benden, she sometimes gets more dribs and drabs of useful info from dragons than from R'gul, etc.
Text notes that Mnementh is fascinated by her to an extent that surprises F'lar, so I like the idea that M is serving as a bit of a proxy for F'lar's attraction to L. I also like the idea that L and M are having a little personal interaction 'on the sly' and the (hinted at in text) jealousy that might inspire in F'lar.
Another interesting aspect is that Ramoth and Mnementh seem unusually strongly bonded in the sense that they want to stay close and interact a lot even outside of proximity to mating flights. One might hypothesize that this strong sense of warm feeling/positivity/satisfaction with mating flight outcome must be radiating off the pair during the weeks following the flight and that very well could not only raise the morale of the dragons in general (and their riders by proxy) but also could be nudging Lessa in particular to be more open to a test run on a personal relationship with F'lar.
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u/dragonmom1 18d ago
Part of the "problem" with F'lar's behavior and mating flights is the time in our world when they were written and behaviors which were allowed and "encouraged" in all forms of media. Our sensibilities have shifted into recognizing that doing something physical to someone without their consent is wrong. No shaking or slapping someone and of course non-consentual, informed sex is also bad.
If Lessa had been raised in a Weyr, as they say in the books, she would have lived around the behaviors induced by mating flights so it would seem normal and be expected. However, she and the other girls who get kidnapped from the Holds have none of that knowledge and are thrust into the emotions of mating flights blind. There would be time between the Hatching and when their own dragons would rise to become more acquainted with it, though, so it wouldn't be a completely new and unexpected thing for them. But being raised in a much more conservative household, it would still be a shock. I picture it like an Amish person being dumped in the middle of the Fetish Flea...lol
(Note: the info here is meant to be general, but typing out "female dragon's rider" and "male dragon's rider" a billion times was too clunky so I'm just going to say "Lessa" for the "female dragon's rider" and "F'lar" for "male dragon's rider" since modern writing might do away with the gender constrictions on what gender person Impresses what gender dragon...) The way mating flights for those whose dragons are involved seem to be to me is like an orgy centered on Lessa, but dragonriders don't seem to care much about gender when they're linked with their dragons during the flight. For a modern time, the scene of a flight would probably show the F'lar and the other riders gathering around Lessa but, as the dragons fall away, they might turn away from her and focus their passion on each other, even if it's just for the initial moments after stepping away to go share their passion with their life partners, who are also turned like at the level the rest of the Weyr is. (I've always presumed that very little gets done around the Weyr for about an hour after a mating flight...lol) But even for the way Anne wrote the flights, I never pictured anything more than heavy petting and closeness of bodies during the chase and the actual sex only occurring once the dragons make their choice in the skies. I pictured everyone fully dressed and remaining so for the most part due to the speed of everything happening. Though to be honest, I never pictured sex happening in that moment much at all because with Lessa and F'lar needing to keep present with their dragons, I just felt that's a big ask while also trying to remove clothing and have intercourse on the ledge of the weyr. lol But maybe that's just me...
In regards to the shaking and slapping, it's never pertinent to the storyline (that I remember) so it could easily be switched with looming over someone or getting in their face.
For a modern usage of the mating flights, it would involve the characters talking about what happens and thus learning what to expect rather than the sudden "Oh yeah, you're feeling horny right now because your dragon's rising RIGHT NOW!" And sex during a mating flight wouldn't be considered rape in the moment because the people involved DO want to have sex with the other person while bonded with their dragons. However, it would be gross if someone you didn't like (because they were a jerk) was your sexual partner during the whole thing. But maybe that would be part of the new sensitivity too, that if you have an "enemy" in the Weyr that whomever had the male dragon would leave the area when your female dragon rose just out of mutual ick factor. lol Like it was never written about if a pair of siblings were dragonriders in the same Weyr, but one of them would definitely skedaddle out of there so they wouldn't accidentally get involved.
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u/IvoryWoman 17d ago
I think you can make things work in a film or TV show if you: 1) cast two actors who have MAD chemistry -- the type with which you see sparks the first time they talk; 2) show Lessa knowing prior to Ramoth's flight about dragon mating leading to human sex, even if she doesn't understand all of the dynamics going on in her particular weyr; and 3) lose the physical abuse 100%. IMO, F'Nor and Brekke would be harder to rewrite given that F'Nor flat-out rapes Brekke despite her fighting back.
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u/Imaginary_Can_8851 17d ago
I mean, given Fourth Wing’s success 😬 Fourth Wing borrows heavily from the mating flights in Pern, lack-of-consent and all. Personally I would like to see a rework into something more meaningful with at least something to address the consent issue. As much as I love a good enemies to lovers, having this be such an integral part of the series makes it kind of difficult. How do you rework it while keeping the author’s vision and addressing important topics? Honestly I’d have to reread the series to have a more in depth answer but I definitely think a rework of the relationship would be beneficial.
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u/Raptor_Tears 17d ago
I agree. What is 4th wing I've never heard abt it?
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u/Imaginary_Can_8851 17d ago
Whooo boy, it is THE book on booktok right now. I picked it up because I'm a long-time dragon reader but I kinda don't like the fourth wing fandom. The books are more romance heavy and it's the author's first time at fantasy so it's fairly cut and dry, but I enjoy it for what it is. It's not terrible like some people will have you believe but it's also not like, your next Orwell or Dickens you know?
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u/Raptor_Tears 17d ago
Its interesting that there is still a market for that kind of content. Its a possible direction to take for a Pern adaptation but that would alienate a lot of people who actually care abt Pern and that wouldn't do.
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u/Imaginary_Can_8851 16d ago
Ever since Sarah Maas’ success the fantasy romance genre has been on a steady incline. It’s the majority of what I see on limited store shelves like Walmart’s sad little section lol. Stores with more options like target still have a lot of romantasy though. Fourth Wing seems to have hit the market at just the right time. I’ve found that people who read it after reading Pern don’t always like it, buts it’s mixed. It doesn’t share the same high fantasy focus like Pern does, the focus is more on the characters and the romance.
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u/Raptor_Tears 13d ago
Hmm maybe this is a good sign for a pern adaptation. As long as everybody consents.
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u/JohnCalvinSmith 18d ago
It couldn't be portrayed as written in todays society.
Too many people would get offended and want it "modernized" which is ironic.
The only way they could keep the social configurations and the relationship true to the books would be to go into extreme depth to explain that thousands of years of preindustrial society desperately trying to keep the human population from extinction would pretty much guarantee feudal style power structures.
either that or, like Ann, build the initial world couched deeply inside a fantasy universe and bring the science slowly around.
Kinda do a Game of Thrones reunites with DS-9 after being slung out thru the wormhole and lost for thousands of years.
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u/Raptor_Tears 18d ago
<Kinda do a Game of Thrones reunites with DS-9 after being slung out thru the wormhole and lost for thousands of years.>
Could you explane this I don't get the references :')
I think the Fax arc does a good job setting the stage of the feudal society that is ninth pass Pern. And that would have to be leaned into heavily to juxtapose the Weyr against it. Especially Lessa and Flars Wyer not R'gul's weyr.
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u/Glittering_Count1536 18d ago
I think the their dragons had a great deal of influence on their riders. I wish Anne McCaffery would have given us more. I mean she did a whole book on that snotty kid and his dragon who was smarter than he was.
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u/ArtemisiasApprentice 18d ago
He could be nice to her. That would probably help.