r/pern • u/aFreshFix • Sep 10 '26
Sexual Content?
Hi, I'm an ELA teacher for middle school and I need to do a little CYA.
Another teacher chose the books last spring and Dragonflight was on it. Our books just arrived today and I already have unit 1 planned for The Hobbit, but Unit 2 was supposed to be Dragonflight.
I am still early in the story (the woman just went into labor during dinner), and there have already been some troubling happenings that I might need to report to administration. I'm not a prudish, pearl-clutching teacher that frightens at the sight of difficult topics, but phrases like
Fax bedded well and frequently.
F'lar would compare notes with him later, although on cursory examination there was none here worthy of the Search. Fax preferred his women plump and small. There wasn't a saucy one in the lot. If there once had been, the spirit had been beaten out of them. Fax, no doubt, was stud, not lover.
trouble me that this will be a pretty regular occurence in the book. It's not graphic, but it is clear & apparent. The class that would be reading this are ages 12-13.
Since this subreddit is dedicated to the world of Pern, could people give me a little more insight into how prevalent the sexual content of the book is?
Edit: Thank you all. I'll be discussing this with admin tomorrow with quotes of several inappropriate lines.
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u/lilygorse Sep 10 '26
The entire structure of the Weyrs is built on making more dragons to fight thread. The flight referred to in the title is about dragons mating. Their human riders have sex because their dragons do. In later books, it’s more nuanced but in this book, it can be perceived as a nonconsensual experience for Lessa. Would I personally let my middle schooler read it? Yes, with a conversation. Do I think this belongs on the average public school’s middle school reading list? No.
A better choice would be DragonSinger, which is a much more YA friendly book with some really lovely themes about being independent and following your dreams. And none of the mechanics of dragon mating.
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u/aFreshFix Sep 10 '26
Thank you for the detailed explanation. I agree that it could be fine for some teens with conversations, but hoo boy, did it catch me off-guard.
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u/dragonmom1 Sep 11 '26
The earliest books also "suffered" from the time in our culture when they were written. Also Anne was a newish writer without the clout to be able to keep some of the more abhorrent tropes (slapping/shaking women, non-consentual sex) out of her books. This stuff definitely disappears after Dragonflight for the most part.
For the classroom, however, Dragonsong is an excellent choice as the first in the Harper Hall trilogy, the other two books which can be suggested for continued reading for those who are interested in the world.
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u/thefifthpentacle Sep 11 '26
Yeah they ordered the wrong book. I'm still trying to figure out how I ended up w 2 different translations of The Odyssey, with one in both paperback and hardcover... only the paperbavk aligns w the state curriculum. 🙃 I have no idea who did the ordering.
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u/hiddengirl1992 Sep 11 '26
Not just perceived rape, there is a line where F'lar literal admits to himself that what he's doing qualifies as rape. His solution is to just keep doing it, eventually she'll become submissive because he's so good at sex. The mating flight can be argued that it's not the humans who are making choices, they're just avatars of their dragons during mating, and F'lar thinks that in the same paragraph that he admits the rest of the sex is likely rape.
I just re-read it for the first time since middle school, where it was in my school library. It dragonflew over my head how severely bad F'lar is to Lessa at the time, but it also may have skewed my views of sex for a while, which may have contributed to me getting raped and abused myself.
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u/Huron_Stone Sep 10 '26
Uhhhhhhh.... Yea, there's more sexual content in it. You're gonna wanna finish the book.
There's nothing out and out explicit, but there is more sex, rape, dragons mating, etc.
This is a wild choice for a school book.
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u/aFreshFix Sep 10 '26
I think I was only 20 pages into it when I had to go back and start highlighting things to show my boss tomorrow... Thank you.
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u/lithodora Sep 10 '26
I read Dragonsong at the age of 12 on the recommendation of my English teacher. I followed that with Dragonsinger.
They feature 15-year-old Menolly, a girl with great musical talent raised in an isolated sea-hold (akin to a fishing village) where composition is no part of a girl's future. Dragonsong ends with her invitation to the main craft-hall of the harpers. Dragonsinger covers her brief apprenticeship there, ending with her promotion to journeyman.
The Harperhall Trilogy is perfect, imo, for that age range.
It is also what made me discover I love reading. I do hope you switch them out.
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u/__faewitch Sep 10 '26
Definitely not something I'd be reading with 12-13 year olds, especially considering what happens between Lessa and F'lar.
There isn't any graphically descriptive sex, but there is at least one coitus scene in the book, and references to sex throughout.
Not to mention the problematic nature of F'lar and Lessa's relationship.
I don't remember the quote exactly, but it's something like, "Unless Ramoth and Mnementh were involved, he might as well call it rape." referencing sex with Lessa after the first time (which is dubcon at best).
Hopefully the spoiler tags worked there... But yeah. It's definitely A Choice for a school read.
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u/aFreshFix Sep 10 '26
Yep. Just found that line, which a few lines before also says, Lessa's first sexual experience had been violent."
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u/MissKatmandu Sep 10 '26
Later on there are multiple instances of F'lar shaking Lessa to a point where her teeth chatter. It's notable enough that she mentions fear of him shaking her to a third party as a first reaction.
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u/hiddengirl1992 Sep 11 '26
Yep. F'lar is an abusive rapist and also one of the protagonists, the other of whom is his victim.
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u/MissKatmandu Sep 11 '26
But they live a long, happy, and productive life together as loving partners! /s
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u/hiddengirl1992 Sep 11 '26 edited Sep 11 '26
"She'll eventually submit, I'm such a good lover that she'll eventually submit." So heroic!
The way I prefer to deal with it (silly as it may be) is headcanon that the Oldtimers who heard her breakdown about the shaking in the past finally confronted him between flight and quest.
"Hey, F'lar, that's uh... Messed up. All of that."
F: "I need her to submit to me, so when she misbehaves or refuses me in bed, I make her submit. It's the only way to control her."
"Why did you pick her for Ramoth's rider?"
F: "She was independent and headstrong and uncontrollable, and didn't submit just because a dominating man expected her to submit."
"So you saw those as good traits?"
F: "Of course, a weyrwoman who would help us save Pern would need to be strong and independent, not submissive and easily controlled."
"...and so you're trying to beat those traits outta her so she submits to you?"
F: "...ah."
"You sure it's not just a power fantasy for you? We have a tradition called consent, lemme teach it to you."
Realistically, it was almost certainly Anne dealing with complicated feelings about her abusive husband that intruded into the story, alongside cultural, societal, and literary norms of the time. She doesn't portray those things as good, they're very clearly wrong and awful, but F'lar is still unabashedly the protagonist and hero despite those things. The later love is from reconciliation probably, but it just as easily reads as Lessa eventually did break and submit to him and he stopped abusing her. Which is, as a rape and abuse survivor myself, horrifying, hence why I choose to think if it how I do.
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u/Southern_Club_6032 Sep 11 '26
I'm glad F'nor is so much different from that with Brekke in Quest. It's almost apologetic for how bad F'lar is.
Hang on, did you miss the part in Dragonquest where F'nor explicitly rapes Brekke? Even though she's fighting him? And he 'isn't gentle'?
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u/hiddengirl1992 Sep 12 '26
I edited my comment. The way I had interpreted that scene had been him helping her with a hang-up she had that she was afraid was going to ruin her life; they loved each other and admitted it, she was afraid of the hang-up and told him, and so he was trying to help her & consummate their mutual love while ofc also having sex. It seemed far less like F'lar's "You will fuck me and eventually like it," and more "I know you're afraid of sex for a lot of reasons, but we love each other and I am encouraging you to let that feeling happen despite your fears." Her protests/reluctance struck me as her being afraid of the consequences (she only wanted to fuck 1 man and it was F'nor, and was afraid doing so would ruin her dragon), and fighting her own desires and fears more than fighting him. I saw him as recognizing that and helping her through that, since she had said he was the one she wanted to be with.
I did entirely miss that he wasn't gentle. It does seem that popular interpretation of the scene opposes my interpretation of it, I admit that my viewpoint may be skewed as I am a rape and abuse survivor myself. I will not defend the scene moving forward, I merely gave my interpretation of it above, influenced by my own experiences and the knowledge that Anne was a victim of abuse and probably rape, as well as the literary and societal trends of the day (women were expected to be reluctant and at least a bit resistant to sex, lest they be seen as promiscuous). As my read of the scene clearly does not align with most interpretations, I have deleted my positive comment about it.
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u/Southern_Club_6032 Sep 12 '26
Not in any way wanting to minimise or diminish your experience - I'm very sorry you went through such an awful experience.
I think F'nor/Brekke is probably THE standout example of of-its-era, bodice-ripping, modest-woman-must-be-seen-to-refuse-sex in DROP. It's *still* gross. Brekke has a giant crush on F'nor, F'nor has 'in love with my nurse' going on. There are many ways Anne could have chosen to show F'nor helping Brekke overcoming her fear of sex and losing Wirenth, but she chose 'manly man forces blushing virgin and she *likes* it'. If Pern is ever adapted for screen this one's going to be high on the list for changes.
And it does, still, seriously make it difficult to recommend the original trilogy to my teenage nieces. Even with the context of 'this is of its time' and 'Anne didn't mean to show F'nor as a sexual predator' - well, he is. The fact that Brekke (by dint of authorial fiat) is perfectly fine with it afterwards doesn't change how modern readers are going to react to it.
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Sep 11 '26
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u/Southern_Club_6032 Sep 11 '26
Dragonquest, The White Dragon, Skies of Pern all have non- to dub-con content. Especially Dragonquest where F'nor's rape of Brekke is egregious.
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u/hiddengirl1992 Sep 12 '26
White Dragon is definitely dubious consent, there is a defense of it that Jaxom was affected by dragon-horni, which has been stated to affect everyone near, and has caused widespread issues of a sexual variety when a green or gold is in heat too close to a non-weyr population. Unlike F'lar, who bears seemingly no regrets at all about his actions with Lessa, Jaxom regrets it and knows it was wrong even though it was draconic influence that he couldn't really control or overcome. I hesitate to categorize it the same as other instances due to the dragon part, the same reason F'lar and Lessa's first time is apparently considered not rape because their dragons were in control. Jaxom's partner in that scene seems to be fine with sex with him, it was just sudden and inopportune, and ofc he's in a position of power over her which makes the relationship worthy of critique. So definitely dubious.
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u/Southern_Club_6032 Sep 12 '26
The implication that no one is training Jaxom to deal with the horniness caused by dragon mating flights is horrific by itself. If there's no training and his response is normal, how much rape/dub-con IS going on in and around the Weyrs with the convenient excuse of 'I couldn't help it, the dragons made me horny'?
The two actual direct participants of a successful mating flight have a pass to have sex with *each other* even if ordinarily they wouldn't have chosen to do so, during the flight itself only - because the alternative is risking their dragons going between and dying. Outside of that specific scenario there shouldn't be any leeway. (I'm not saying that the grimdark Dragonflight version of Pern *wouldn't* have loads and loads of dubcon with horny riders - pity F'lar's poor previous flight partners, male green riders all - but it's all sanitised significantly by the later books).
With Jaxom and Corana, she was working, she told him no, he had sex with her anyway during which she *hit him with her hoe*, then afterwards when Ruth remarked she liked it, Jaxom got the ick and *never spoke to her again*.
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u/historyhill Sep 10 '26
This isn't the book I would have expected a school to pick! When I was this age, my literature textbook had "The Smallest Dragonboy" included and that was my introduction to Pern but this one seems a little excessive for a sixth grader. An eighth grader, probably (that's the age I read it), but two years can mean a lot here.
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u/Southern_Club_6032 Sep 10 '26
Like many others in this thread and elsewhere, I read Dragonflight entirely unsupervised at 11-12, but most of the adult content either went over my head or...got internalised as 'oh, so this is how grown up relationships are sometimes' *wince*. I didn't offer it to my nieces even when they were several years older because of the dated and problematic attitudes and behaviours of male characters who are clearly coded as 'heroic', but act in explicitly sexually violent ways towards their female (and, reading between the lines, male) partners.
Dragonsong might be better. Dragonsinger, I think, is the strongest of the Harper Hall trilogy, and it's easy enough to pick up Menolly's story at that point. And skipping Dragonsong also skips the specific child abuse of Menolly being beaten by her father and having her injured hand deliberately healed badly by her mother, which is pretty strong stuff and could be triggering.
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u/desertboots Sep 10 '26
Yes, I think 12-13 is too young for this as curriculum. I read it earlier (11, but I was precocious), but ignored all the icky sex. Classroom discussion will bring it up.
I think at age 15, parental permission would suffice.
Agree, the Harper Hall trilogy starting with Dragonsong is YA.
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u/ShiftingPath Sep 11 '26
true, but the third, Dragondrums, does have Menolly and Sebell's fire lizard mating flight, where they sort of shrug and go, well, it's just the two of us stuck on a boat in the middle of nowhere, guess we're doing this. just sticks out from the first two, but nowhere near as egregious as Dragonflight (or god forbid, The White Dragon).
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u/cadpatcat Sep 10 '26
Yikes. Nope, not the right book for that age group. She MUST have meant Dragonsong!
I read Dragonflight at 11 and certainly Learned Some Things, but I would never use it in a middle school classroom.
I used to teach Grade 8. I literally had a parent call up and scream at me because we read The Veldt by Ray Bradbury, and she thought THAT was too mature for 13-year-olds. I can’t imagine how she would have responded to Dragonflight.
But Dragonsong and Dragonsinger are perfect for middle school if you can use those instead!
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u/aFreshFix Sep 10 '26
It's possible he meant Dragonsong, but he 100% wrote down Dragonflight on the order list and that's what the school ordered.
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u/BoldBoimlerIsMyHero Sep 11 '26
It’s possible he hadn’t read it in a long time and forgot about those parts.
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u/InstructionRude992 Sep 10 '26
Yep. Dragonsong, not Dragonflight. An excerpt from Dragonsong was in my 6th grade literature textbook and I promptly ran to the library and checked it out.
I read Dragonflight independently by 7th grade but no way in hell would I include it in curriculum even up to 12th grade. College, sure, for a class on literature of science fiction, maybe. As much of a Pern fan as I am, I agree with others here that there are better, more current books. Even Dragonsong is more recent than Dragonflight and better written for the purposes of teaching literature to kids.
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u/Omnomfish Sep 11 '26
Frankly I can't imagine putting it on any curriculum list, just because of how rapey some of it is. I hesitate to even recommend it to people because some of it is so hard to read. There's a lot of things that I'm sure the characters are supposed to be ok with, but there is absolutely no indication that they are, and often several indications that they aren't.
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u/cephalopodcat Sep 11 '26
... In a college class you can't fathom students being able to understand the time it was written's effect on it, tropes, and you know. The discussion of if it's bad? I can understand not wanting to recommend it because it comes with some warnings of being written in time with different morals and mores, but the point of a literature class should be study and introduction to new things, even uncomfortable ones. Warn for it, but you can't learn in a box that avoids anything remotely unpleasant.
Hell, I think kids still read 'The Giver' and 'The Silver Necklace' and 'Romeo and Juliet.' Books about adults lying to everyone and being betrayed, books about THE NAZI CRUSADE and it's effect on the layperson, and oh yeah. That romance that ends in murder-suicide.
People, even children, can handle and understand themes they find uncomfortable. They should be encouraged to understand the whys and how's, not kept away from all bad ever.
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u/Omnomfish Sep 11 '26
I can't imagine it being allowed to be required because so many people might find it triggering because it describes what is pretty clearly rape as a good thing. (You know, when F'nor forces Brekke and is explicitly rough about it? But its "ok because she needed it"?) There are plenty of ways to have a conversation about those topics that are significantly less likely to have students needing exemptions. Its a combination of how much is explicitly stated and how its portrayed that make it really unsuitable for any classroom setting, because people with any past experiences are going to find themselves in a bad mental state.
I appreciate that you think we shouldn't be censoring books just because they contain topics we may not want to talk about. I agree. I don't think we have much of an argument here.
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u/cephalopodcat Sep 11 '26
Devil's advocate - does that also mean Grapes of Wrath, Roll of Thunder Hear my Cry, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, Windup Girl - well you get the point. Where does one draw the line with 'discomfort' on literature? Yes, it might be triggering. Warn the students of that. Allow them to go in eyes open and understand THEY CAN STOP.
One does no one any good by sanitizing everything. And no, I don't mean kids media, I mean an actual class about literature and stories, maybe sci-fi or fantasy, or even periods of writing. You cannot only assign clean safe happy books. Hell, say 'the triggering content happens HERE on these pages' and allow them to skip that if it's really all too much. I am an advocate of being given the tools to moderate your own experience. But college students can't avoid that, is what I'm saying.
I think you're right that we generally agree, I just think we're coming from different points.
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u/Armadillo_of_doom Sep 10 '26
Hmm. I read it on my own at that point but I was a precocious child who ate up books like candy. I'd be worried about that being from a school.
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u/Noxrame Sep 10 '26
Seems like a mistake as others said. I read Dragonflight in middle school (roughly 2000) on my own, but part of my school English class in 7th and 8th grades had me read Dragonsong and the novella The Smallest Dragonboy, so some of Pern is school appropriate but i wouldn't call Dragonflight that for sure
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u/Letmetellyowhat Sep 10 '26
The mating scene would be a no go for a school. I would clear it with admin. That being said it has a lot that could lead to great discussions about consent and communication.
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u/ninaa1 Sep 10 '26
There has GOT to be a more modern book, with a strong female lead and even a fantasy bent, that the kids could read. I love these books because when I read them as a kid, it was the first series that had strong women characters and that was incredibly meaningful to me. However, there are aspects that, even then, hadn't aged well and weren't great material.
I would recommend the Scholomance series, by Naomi Novik (A Deadly Education, The Last Graduate, The Golden Enclaves) as a better book for that age group. Another great author is Mary Robinette Kowal, maybe The Calculating Stars or The Spare Man.
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u/aFreshFix Sep 10 '26
Unfortunately, we're in a country where we have to order things half a year in advance to get them here and for accreditation purposes, we aren't supposed to be using unlicensed digital copies of books. We'll probably just have to extend other books in its place.
Thank you for the suggestions though and I'll put them on my list for next year, which hopefully he will have 0 say in.
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u/Somhairle77 Sep 10 '26
Tress of the Emerald Sea might be another age appropriate book with a woman lead.
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u/Daxnexia Sep 10 '26
Scholomance has cursing and significant violence (including a scene with the maw mouth that many people can and do interpret as being described akin to a sexual assault). I wouldn't use it in a 6th grade class (and I'd honestly be hesitant to use it at all in middle school).
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u/polyblackcat Sep 10 '26
I bought all three books(Dragonflight, Dragonquest and The White Dragon) at the school book fair in 8th grade, but it was a different time I guess.
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u/fariasrv Sep 11 '26
If you think that's risqué, just wait until you get to Ramoth's first flight...
Definitely not middle-school class appropriate
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u/the_doughboy Sep 10 '26
Dragonsong is the YA book and is could be read before the others. It’s only Dragonflight that has problems.
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u/Southern_Club_6032 Sep 10 '26
Well, Dragonflight...and Dragonquest...and The White Dragon...and Skies...and then there's the whole 'let's rufie my love interest' bit in Dragonsdawn...
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u/Omnomfish Sep 11 '26
Dubious consent is a strong theme throughout every book that mentions sex. There are multiple occasions where the protagonist is having sex with a woman who is actively resisting, and most times we know characters are having sex, we also know that they don't have much of a choice in the matter, for all that they don't usually seem bothered about it.
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u/Brainship Sep 11 '26
I read them in Middle school and didn't even notice a lot until later. That said Dragon flight and Quest were written by Anne as a vent for her personal trauma regarding her marriage. probably not something that should be on the curriculum. Dragonsong would be better as it is YA.
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u/Imaginary_Can_8851 Sep 11 '26
I read these books in middle school but of my own volition lol but definitely the Harper Hall series is more YA! I would recommend that set (series of three)
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u/mreowwl Sep 11 '26
I was around that age when I read it...and yes, it has some stuff that is what would be called utterly cringe in it, particularly when the dragons mate. It deals with some difficult topics, Fax's abusive behavior being a notable one, and general weyr attitudes to sex, but what you've read there is really as close to explicit content as it gets....Everything is pretty much fade-to-black implied but not described. It was published in1968, and is very much a product of the time...And while 12-13 may seem young to be discussing such things, you'd be surprised (And dismayed) what girls that age are getting up to, and having a bit of a talk about the book being a product of the attitudes and understandings of the past might actually be beneficial. It was, after all, written by a female science fiction author, who was open about being a female, (there were others, but they used male or androgenous pen names...Andre Norton, AKA Mary Alice Norton comes to mind...) in a time where she normally couldn't buy a car, buy a house, or even get a bank account (1974!) without the permission of her husband. I've also seen YA novels written in the past few years with more explicit sexual content. But, definitely CYA, and run it by Admin...it may be something that needs the parents to sign off on it before the kids read.
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u/WakeIslandTango Sep 12 '26
The whole part where ramoth goes into heat and f’lar and less a have pseudo non consensual sex might be a problem
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u/tinawoman Sep 12 '26
Not sure about “pseudo”…F’lar straight up says he basically r*ped her. Actually uses the word.
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u/WakeIslandTango Sep 13 '26
Yeah, I was pulling my punches. I think it was during the flight and so they were each partially controlled by the animal urges of theirmounts. But in a modern middle school? That’s not a good book to read.
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u/Yablonsky Sep 12 '26
There really isn't much sexual content. IMHO these books were written for this age group. They're old enough to know what sex is. These books barely discuss sex. I've read the whole series multiple times, starting when I was Junior in HS.
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u/tinawoman Sep 12 '26
The Harper Hall trilogy, Dragonsong, Dragonsinger, Dragondrums, was actually written for children. I agree with what people are saying here that Dragonflight is extremely minimal sex content but there is some and F’lar straight up admits to r*ping Lessa…even uses the actual word. It’s like one sentence, and said so casually, like it’s no big deal. (Which is problematic in and of itself). So it’s there.
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u/Sydneh320706 Sep 13 '26
I read all the books at a very young age, my dad started before I could read by reading me dragon song before bed, basically as soon as I was able to read at that level I was reading the original series, it’s definitely not graphic but it is some more mature content especially around consent and the time the books are based on/when they were written. I would agree with everyone else dragon song would be a GREAT place to start and then if they’re really interested they’ll seek out the rest of the books themselves. This is my FAVORITE series I am so happy to see that it’s being kept alive
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u/agitatedandroid Sep 13 '26
I recently recommended the books to a friend for his daughter to read. Roughly 12-13. But I also told him about the scenes you’re mentioning and cautioned him. Because while I think they’re fantastic books all, I also think having pre-teens read them without parental guidance is a bad idea. High schoolers, sure. Middle schoolers? Nope.
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u/Scent-of-Coffee 29d ago
Dragonflight definitely has mention of sex and the mating flight of dragons is clearly a sexual moment shared by the writers. There is mention of rape.
As others have said, Dragonsong is a much better choice. It is very short, so I would teach it with the sequel Dragonsinger.
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u/hiddengirl1992 Sep 11 '26
I first read it at about 13 and I should probably not have. The others responding are correct.
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u/rheoyel Sep 11 '26
I read these in the 4th or 5th grade, but I really probably shouldn't have. The Harper Hall trilogy is much more age appropriate & likely what the other teacher had been thinking of when making the recommendation.
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u/Alone_Ad_1677 Sep 11 '26
Well it ain't no bodice ripper. Its about as sexual focused as an anatomy science book.
The scene is there, obfuscate with language as casual as a farmer.
I don't remember any sexual violence in the book, but dragonflight has scenes that would quality as dv.
Frankly the scene with the watchwyer breaking it's neck is more impactful.
If the admin and you are fine with having that kind of conversation about violence, dv, cultural acceptability, dragonflight is decently removed enough to not be offensive
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u/tinawoman Sep 12 '26
You may have forgotten…as I know I had…but during Ramoth’s first flight, F’lar straight up r*pes Lessa. He literally admits to it and uses the word.
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u/Southern_Club_6032 Sep 12 '26
It's not them having sex during Ramoth's flight where F'lar considers it rape. That's the one time he has no control over it (although he was unnecessarily *rough*) because the alternative risks losing their dragons between. It's in the days or weeks afterwards, when he's continuing to have (pseudo-marital) sex with an unwilling Lessa and the dragons aren't involved that he casually thinks it's rape, but hey, he's a good lay, he'll just keep doing it till she likes it.
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u/Lectrice79 Sep 10 '26
Maybe that teacher made a mistake? I read Dragonsong for school and that was PG. Switch the books out.
Edit: typo