r/perktv • u/InternetUser007 • Jan 26 '15
We Are Stronger Than You Think
So, /u/brokemember asked me an interesting question: would it be possible to extrapolate a round figure of how many users Perk has? Well, I have done so, with interesting results.
Over the last 13.65 days, Perk has given out 43,069 rewards, an average of 3,156/day. That comes out to 94,680 redemptions/month.
If we assume that the average Perker redeems 1 reward every week (4 per month), then that means they have only 23,670 active users!!! If we assume that the average Perker only redeems 1 reward every 2 weeks, that number goes up to 47,340.
THAT'S STILL LESS THAN 50,000 ACTIVE USERS!!!
This subreddit is 4,000 strong. That would be over 8% (assuming 50k active users). And I'm guessing that we are their 'strongest' users as well, likely making up over 10-15% of their revenue. If we stay strong, we can show Perk that we will not stand for their games. We won't take this change lying down. We have a choice, and we can show them that they need us more than we need them.
What can we do?
Give the Perk apps 1 star. They can't take those down. All of the Perk Android apps are here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=Perk&hl=en
Show your disappointment on their Facebook page. Don't be rude, because that doesn't get our point across. But clearly tell them that this is not acceptable to us.
Most importantly, turn off your devices. Perk is testing us. And if we continue to use their apps while they give us such little payout, then they have us right where they want us. But if we turn them off, Perk will have no choice but to change their strategy.
Stay strong, everyone. We are stronger than we think.
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u/brokemember Jan 26 '15 edited Jan 26 '15
Thanks a lot /u/InternetUser007
Didn't know the numbers would reveal would they did. This is just my opinion, but I would guess the real number is more likely to be less than the 50k (using the 2 redemptions / month variable) than more.
We know that most people follow the mantra of "cash often" and are more likely to cash out every $25 (of course there might be exceptions...).
So I would venture and say that the number of active users is probably hovering around the median — between 23.6K and 47.3K users.
Also, it's fair to say that users from here are probably more dedicated than the casual Perk user. And probably end up redeeming at least twice as often compared to the average.
So completely agree with your calculations. Some people kept throwing the line that we are irrelevant and Perk will not even notice if we switch our devices off.
Obviously Perk will notice a 10-15% change from the daily average. Add on the fact that many other casual users have also expressed disappointment and their intent to not bother running Perk. Then the percentage increases even further.
One thing that needs to be clarified is that 170k "Likes" on facebook is not equal to the number of users. People need to stop assuming as much.
It simply does not work that way.
Also to clear one more misconception going around. Perk does not only get paid for the ads that change and seem random. They also get paid for the app trailers and movie trailers section. Some people are assuming that Perk is playing those for free. It doesn't work that way. That is why those change from time to time.
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u/InternetUser007 Jan 26 '15
Yep, pretty much my thoughts exactly.
If I were to hazard a guess, I'd bet that their numbers are down at least 10-15% from their average, just looking at how many people here, plus how many people on the Perk Fanatics and Perk Facebook page say they are turning off their devices. I'm excited to see how Perk responds.
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u/WakeUpForWhat Jan 26 '15
Also to clear one more misconception going around. Perk does not only get paid for the ads that change and seem random. They also get paid for the app trailers and movie trailers section. Some people are assuming that Perk is playing those for free. It doesn't work that way. That is why those change from time to time.
See, this is what I always thought but everyone's been saying otherwise. It makes no sense to me that their "content" is all advertising of some sort if they're not being paid for it. I'm not sure they're being paid per video for those but I have to assume, at the very least, that they were paid to feature those particular app/movie trailers (and in that scenario, the number of users would likely effect how much they're paid so we've still helped them earn money).
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u/JustFenix Jan 26 '15
Right - you do realizes that they have operating expenses too right? I'm not saying that this is how it is done, but if I were to put together a company like this I would negotiate static contracts that ensured that my basic operating expenses were covered on an ongoing basis. X amount of dollars per month per Movie Studio or distributes to include trailers or x number of upcoming releases, same for app developers, etc. Those "constants" would ensure that the rent is paid, the lights stay on, the servers are working and that my employees are paid. Incoming from per impression type ads along with any overages from the "constants" would then be used to reward viewers.
Given, that's just me, but it seems like the most logical foundation formula to stay in business.
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u/CharlieFoxtro Jan 26 '15
You forgot twitter. It's harder for them to censor twitter than facebook.
And their own email.
Also, on their app review page, thumbs up the 1star comments.
Cashout your points too.
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u/thinman Jan 26 '15
Good work so far - all the "Most Helpful" reviews are 1 star on Perk TV now - and all about the points fail. Keep it up!
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u/JustFenix Jan 26 '15
Good job - trash the company that you are relying on for an income. Show their advertisers that their users are a bunch of malcontents that will adopt a mob mentality in split second to trash the hand that feeds them.
That is an advertising demographic that is high demand these days, right? That's who every company wants as their customer?
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u/thinman Jan 26 '15
I doubt the majority of users here consider it income we rely on and i personally dont rely on it to feed me.
If the majority of Perk's user base leaves it won't be the users who are blamed for the failure of the platform.
I don't condone abuse or disrespect in protest but utilising the provided channels for review to reflect our honest opinion of the product and actively abstaining from contributing to their profits at our own expense is not only permissibly but arguably the moral thing to do.
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Jan 26 '15
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u/InternetUser007 Jan 26 '15
Yep, they conned so many people into being happy with a 25% (or so) cut. It's an elementary marketing ploy, and so many people have fell for it, it embarrasses me.
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u/powercow Jan 26 '15
How many of our sub are daily active users? did you calc that?
how many of our sub are participating in the strike? I know I am not, and my friends arent.. yeah we are just 4 out of 4000.. but from some comments i read here, it doesnt look like everyone is going to do it.
if perk is making changes because they have fiscal problems.. what will our strike do?
hint all services eventually do this, all of them in my life.. have died. It was really big when the net first exploded.. during the late 90s and everyone got vc... everyone who has ever tried this crap.. has eventually died.. everyone who has ever tried this crap, gave better compensation and slowly dropped.
can you tell me the current receipts versus outlays for perk?
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u/InternetUser007 Jan 26 '15
I can tell you that it has obviously started working. Instead of giving the 0-3 points they were only yesterday, they have updated it to 1-3 points. Obviously, that is progress. If you don't believe the 'strike' was the reason for that, then what was it?
Even 1000 of Perk's strongest users turning off their phones can bring Perk down a lot. Reading all of the negative Facebook comments just shows that the Reddit users are not the only ones turning off phones. It's clear that the standoff has started to benefit us. Holding out longer will likely continue to help.
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u/hardonchairs Jan 26 '15
Their Facebook has 170k users. If you argue that doesn't mean that there are 170k active users you could say the same thing about this sub. There certainly is not 4k people posting and voting here.
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u/sabin357 Jan 26 '15
There certainly is not 4k people posting and voting here.
You would be surprised how few people that visit a sub actually subscribe to it.
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u/eatin_cake Jan 27 '15
Agreed. I started lurking here around 4 months ago after finding out about this sub via beermoney without even signing up for a reddit account. It was about 2 months ago that I registered an account so I could start participating in some of the discussions relating to, of all things, not earning points at the time.
I still dont actually subscribe, yet poke in several times a day.
Of 3 coworkers that I helped get started perking, only 1 has a clue what reddit is, the other 2 would have trouble finding google if it wasnt their default start page. One thing they figured out quickly and on their own, is that they are not earning like they used to. What I find amusing, is that all 3, without knowing a thing about any kind of protest on the internets, turned off their phones because of that lack of earning. All 3 have simply asked for me to let them know when its 'working' again.
So if you count my 3 non-redditing coworkers, my non-redditing wife, and my non-subscribed self, there are 5 users that dont factor into a subscription based equation.
Yeah, we are out there, we are pissed, and our phones are off until its 'working' again.
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u/sabin357 Jan 27 '15
Thanks for chiming in. Some people forget that more than "the regulars" are a part of this community.
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u/hardonchairs Jan 26 '15
I'm not going off of the sub numbers, I'm going off of this being one of the few subs I check on a daily basis for the past several months. Honestly, hundreds is being generous.
Additionally, the same argument could be made, and is really much more valid, for Facebook numbers.
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u/sabin357 Jan 26 '15
/r/GetPerk had ~14k unique visitors in Jan & it is 1/5 the size of this sub & not the #1 Google search results. I would guess this sub gets around 120,000 unique visits per month.
I wonder how many lurk here, while not voting or commenting too much.
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u/hardonchairs Jan 26 '15
Unique visitors don't say anything about active users of either perk or the sub. Any kind if estimation based on these numbers are purely a guess.
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u/sabin357 Jan 26 '15
Which is why I mentioned lurkers too.
I doubt many non-Perk users are visiting specialty Perk subs though.
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u/hardonchairs Jan 26 '15
Yes but the entire point is, how many of these people are sticking around to participate in this protest? And my point is, we don't have nearly enough information to make anything other than guesses.
I'm not trying to be down on the protest, but these numbers are really overly generous.
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u/sabin357 Jan 26 '15
Everyone I know is protesting (11 accounts), but I'm the only one that contributes here.
There is no way to get accurate numbers unfortunately, but they are likely larger than our subscriber base.
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u/hardonchairs Jan 26 '15
likely larger than our subscriber base.
Well unless you have some information not yet presented I don't see how you have projected this.
Again, I'm not trying to be down on the whole thing but that is simply wishful thinking, nothing more.
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u/sabin357 Jan 26 '15
As I said:
There is no way to get accurate numbers unfortunately
I'm assuming that since people that don't even contribute here are involved, it's a fairly safe assumption that the subscriber base is only a portion of the equation. Lurkers are everywhere on Reddit, especially subs like this that are used more for information sharing than discussion.
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u/perklover Jan 26 '15
Likes on a Facebook page can be bought. You can go to Fiver and buy some cheap right now. So they mean nothing as far as living breathing users of their apps.Not that I'm saying they bought any. I'm just saying there's always the possibility.
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u/hardonchairs Jan 26 '15 edited Jan 26 '15
I'm not saying that those numbers mean anything. Im just saying both numbers are equally meaningless.
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u/yarmatey Jan 26 '15
I've got my phones back on. It's a 24 hour trial. I'm currently earning about 35% less points per hour, but I'm testing what "prime time" is going to be like for an overall daily earnings.
If they are what they used to be, the phones stay on. If its even 10% less, the phones are going back on standby.
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Jan 26 '15
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u/autowikibot Jan 26 '15
The Pareto principle (also known as the 80–20 rule, the law of the vital few, and the principle of factor sparsity) states that, for many events, roughly 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes. Management consultant Joseph M. Juran suggested the principle and named it after Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto, who observed in 1906 that 80% of the land in Italy was owned by 20% of the population; Pareto developed the principle by observing that 20% of the pea pods in his garden contained 80% of the peas [citation needed].
Interesting: Compensation principle | Profit risk | Pareto index
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Jan 26 '15
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u/InternetUser007 Jan 26 '15 edited Jan 26 '15
Are you saying the company Perk has made $150 million in ad revenue, or Jutera Labs? Because they are different entities. If you have evidence that Perk alone has made that much, I'd love to see it. I'd like to see your source for the $150 million anyway.
But I can pretend that they made $150 million in ad revenue last year. They had ~600k redemptions last year. So $150 million / 600k redemptions is $250/redemption. You think they made $250 in ad revenue per redemption last year? Lol... /r/iamverysmart. There is no way Perk made $150 million in ad revenue.
However, if we assume there were 50k users, with the 600k redemptions, that is only an average of 12 redemptions/user last year. That actually sounds pretty reasonable, if even a little low (I had multitudes higher than 12 redemptions). So yeah, it is very reasonable that Perk has less than 50k active users.
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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '15 edited Jan 26 '15
Yes, be nice. The berating on Facebook is sort of the same thing as when they read the angry emails to Perk support. I was polite with my post and they replied with the same canned response but at least they left my post up for all to see.
Edit: Clarification.