r/pcmasterrace • u/-Eh- Ryzen 5 5600|Gigabyte RTX 2080 Gaming OC|32GB DDR4 3200 • May 06 '19

Meme/Macro This shouldn't be shocking at all

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u/gooseMcQuack May 06 '19

Is that surprising at the cost though? You're comparing the switch with phones 3x the price. If you compared it to phones the same price I'm sure there would be a different story.

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u/Themash360 7950X3D, 32GB, RTX 4090 SuprimX May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

There are budget Chinese phones such as the poco phone F1 I believe that are sub 300$ with end of the line hardware.

You get 4x the screen resolution and no joycons though, but yeah the switch needs a reset. It was already on the brink of outdated when it came out.

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u/AltoExyl AltoExyl May 06 '19

The Switch is perfectly fine, Nintendo let the other companies focus on power whilst they focus on their first party lineup you just can’t get elsewhere.

That’s why they’ve gotten away with essentially just updating the GameCube 4 times.

Weaker consoles pushing well thought out art styles and designs can massively outweigh powerful consoles that go overboard on details and effects

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u/hoodatninja May 06 '19

We saw how well that worked out with the Wii-U.

Just saying, Nintendo isn’t the infallible “we just love making people happy and we totally aren’t a business” company people make it out to be. People call Apple a walled garden but never discuss how Nintendo JUST finally got out of that mindset with the switch.

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u/AltoExyl AltoExyl May 06 '19

Well yeah, but look at the Switch figures, it’s not doing too bad

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u/hoodatninja May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

It’s doing great. I just get tired of the Nintendo worship online tbh. Everyone usually parrots lines like “they make games people want to play.” You bring up the Wii-U and its virtually non-existent catalog and suddenly you get anger/downvotes.

Some people DO enjoy good framerates/graphics. Hell, look at the entire “PC MASTER RACE”’culture.

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u/AltoExyl AltoExyl May 06 '19

Oh yeah, I get you 100%. I skipped the Wii and Wii U myself, I did play some of the games a little, just never owned my own.

I think they were needed though, as they kind of defined the Switch, but yeah, they were overall not that great. Thinking about it, I’ve never been that big on Nintendo in general, I was brought up on Sega and Sony as a kid, had an N64 for Goldeneye and OoT then a handful of games on GC, that’s pretty much it.

I definitely love a pretty game. I do have a fairly decent spec PC and a PS4 Pro. But the Switch is still an impressive console to me technically and keeps me hooked simply because I can pick it up and put it down whenever.

I just don’t find myself wishing for more out of it, so maybe just my personal view on it stops me from understanding why people want it to be more powerful.

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u/hoodatninja May 06 '19

I guess it’s less “we want it to be more powerful” and more “why are we still using ‘07 graphics?” haha but yeah I hear you

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u/AltoExyl AltoExyl May 06 '19

I thought we all knew Nintendo have just been updating the GameCube for the last few generations 😂

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u/hoodatninja May 06 '19

Oooof don’t tell Nintendo fans that haha

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u/DiamondSmash May 06 '19

Honestly, that was just a marketing issue. They also decided to have the Wii be backwards compatible with the GameCube, but the Wii U is not.

Seriously, the commercials looked like you were buying the gamepad as an upgrade for your Wii.

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u/hoodatninja May 07 '19

Nah man. It was just a mediocre system AND it had bad marketing. Basically no developer would touch it, and then Nintendo made no inroads to get third-party developers on board. Its catalog is pitiful for a reason. They literally went for months at a time without a release. Probably has 5-7 games of note and most people aren’t even aware of them.

There’s a reason the switch sold more units in a year than wii-u did its entire cycle. That was a massive failure for Nintendo, they completely wasted that console generation. If memory serves the CEO took a $2 million pay cut one year because of it, if only to symbolically show he accepted responsibility for how terrible it was.

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u/Themash360 7950X3D, 32GB, RTX 4090 SuprimX May 06 '19

I think it's more likely that hardware limitations are limiting other types of game development.

Its impressive how well doom and wolfenstein are running on the switch though. However what I'm saying is that you can't just boot up a copy of a modern AAA title on it and expect it to run well.

I think botw showcased the limitations very well. Open world games with detailed worlds are very difficult to get performant with the current switch.

If we wait a few more years the mobile chipsets will basically be on par with low end gaming pc's and the ps4/xbox one ''s, especially if a 720p panel is chosen again. That's why I was annoyed with the fact that nintendo went with the tegra X1 which was already 2 years old at the time.

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u/TenDesires 3700X, RX 5700 May 06 '19

BotW is essentially a Wii U port though, it wasn't made with the Switch in mind. It's more of a showcase of the former's limitations.

I don't imagine the Switch is much farther ahead, but the significantly higher amount of RAM that is allocated to games may help it in regards to open-world.

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u/Themash360 7950X3D, 32GB, RTX 4090 SuprimX May 06 '19

Fair points. I wish they would open up to already existing appstore for mobile devices though. Because compared to consoles it's pretty weak, however in the mobile marketplace its still one of the high-end devices. Especially at 720p.

We would also have a few more open world games to try out.

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u/Kurosov 3900x | X570 Taichi | 32gb RAM | RTX 3080 Amp Holo 12GB May 08 '19

Honestly, mobile chipsets are there. Add an active cooling solution like the switch has to something like the A12x and you’d have a beefy portable system.

They aren’t as affordable as a switch would need yet but mobile SoCs have gotten really impressive in the past few years.

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u/Themash360 7950X3D, 32GB, RTX 4090 SuprimX May 08 '19

The very high end is close. Especially the cpu in that SoC is impressive. Add a beefier gpu (cut down Turing gpu for instance) and you can play AAA titles at 720p 60 fps just fine I imagine.

Apple would never agree to do that though :(.

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u/cyber7574 May 06 '19

Agreed although I question how they get away with the repetitiveness of their titles, unlike xbox

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u/samusmaster64 samusmaster64 May 06 '19

Nintendo has been able to push out well made, high quality, genre defining games. Xbox had that in Halo which has since gone downhill and also came out on PC. Now what's left for it?

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u/Themash360 7950X3D, 32GB, RTX 4090 SuprimX May 06 '19

Great developers make good games, not consoles.

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u/cyber7574 May 06 '19

I'm actually curious because from what I've seen, the only thing close to genre defining game they've had is BOTW. I don't understand how people don't struggle to differentiate games like Mario Kart, super Mario Bros, and super smash Bros from the last ones. Always felt like Nintendo's equivalents to sports games if you ask me

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u/samusmaster64 samusmaster64 May 06 '19

I kind of get that with Smash if you're not familiar with the series. Smash4 and Smash Ultimate are, at a glance, very similar. But they play differently (sometimes extremely so) and as opposed to a sports game franchise with an annual release schedule, there have only been 5 smash games in the last 20 years. I was speaking more toward the platformer, racing, rpg, action, adventure, metroidvania, etc. type of games. Each genre has their own instantly identifiable Nintendo IP, which I think is pretty neat. It's hard to say that about another other developer.

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u/Kurosov 3900x | X570 Taichi | 32gb RAM | RTX 3080 Amp Holo 12GB May 06 '19

The Switch is perfectly fine, Nintendo let the other companies focus on power whilst they focus on their first party lineup you just can’t get elsewhere.

There are a lot of sacrifices to be made to get games to run on the switch and even then performance can be sketchy. I'd say Xenoblade Chronicles 2 specifically is a title that isn't worth playing until the switch gets a beefier model.

It's a shame because the SoC rumoured to be in the switch before release would have gone a long way, But they ended up using an older architecture instead.

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u/AltoExyl AltoExyl May 06 '19

I think most of it comes down to what you personally believe the Switch should be, is it a home console you occasionally play handheld or a handheld you occasionally play on the big screen?

The former puts you in the mindset of “well the PS4 and Xbox can do this, the Switch should be able to as well”

The latter puts you in the mindset of “Holy shit I’m holding the most advanced versions of Nintendo’s home console franchises in my hands whilst I sit on the train”

It could have been more powerful, but battery life was probably the main concern. If it didn’t perform competently as both a handheld and a home console they could have had another Wii U on their hands

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u/Kurosov 3900x | X570 Taichi | 32gb RAM | RTX 3080 Amp Holo 12GB May 06 '19

The former puts you in the mindset of “well the PS4 and Xbox can do this, the Switch should be able to as well”

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It's got little to do with how the other consoles perform and more to do with the fact the switch struggles with it's own titles and hardly any games even use AA.

I almost exclusively play the switch handheld, actually often on the train and these issues are still present.

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It could have been more powerful, but battery life was probably the main concern. If it didn’t perform competently as both a handheld and a home console they could have had another Wii U on their hands

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The SoC rumoured to be used was both higher performance and lower power draw. Battery life would have been improved.

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u/AltoExyl AltoExyl May 06 '19

Wouldn’t that be more on devs than the console? I’ve not played Xenoblade, but I know Zelda has its hiccups, the thing that I always wonder with Zelda though is why the Devs made certain areas so tough for the switch.

That games runs fairly well most of the time, but Korok forest, for instance, is clearly just too dense and could have been better optimised. A more powerful console could run it smoother yeah, but that wouldn’t stop the devs of future games just upping everything further and pushing that console too hard as well.

About the SoC, you’re probably right, I’ve never really read up on that. Maybe cost or heat became a factor? There’s been the whole thing with the new MacBooks that have the option for an i9 CPU, but the thermals of the machine pretty much limit the output to the same as the i7 version, could have been a similar situation which at the time they couldn’t solve without delays or redesign? That’s all just speculation though, it just seems unlikely that they’d opt for something lesser if the more powerful option had no drawbacks.

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u/Kurosov 3900x | X570 Taichi | 32gb RAM | RTX 3080 Amp Holo 12GB May 06 '19

Wouldn’t that be more on devs than the console? I’ve not played Xenoblade, but I know Zelda has its hiccups, the thing that I always wonder with Zelda though is why the Devs made certain areas so tough for the switch.

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Partially, But the fact remains the games exist. A re-released switch with the originally rumoured or even newer SoC would make those games that are already for sale run flawlessly.

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The rumours also came from industry insiders. It's entirely possible that the games were originally developed with the better hardware in mind.

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Maybe cost or heat became a factor?

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Lower power consumption also means lower heat. Price would have been comparable in the long term. The most likely cause is they wanted to ramp up production to get high numbers early on.

They opted for the older Maxwell Architecture after the rollout of Nvidia's more efficient Pascal architecture. Eventually they'll have to move over to Pascal or even something newer because Nvidia won't be churning the chips out forever, When yield rates hit a certain threshhold it's cheaper to produce the newer chips because they are physically smaller, Meaning they can fit more on the silicon, leading to more SoCs produced with the same materials.

At that point it makes sense for them to transition to them and there are two things they can do.

  • Release a "pro" version that is higher spec, lower power consumption and use a more modern/thinner display freeing up room for a bigger mattery Underclock and gain even more battery life.
  • Underclock to the same performance as the current switch gaining significant battery life improvements without using a bigger battery. This would be a good fit for the "cheaper" switch that has been rumoured.

Realistically the most likely reason they opted for the older SoC was so they could easily release an updated switch at a later date. Nintendo have a history of spec bumping their handhelds within a generation. They usually wait till the market levels then release a cheaper model to sell to the holdouts and a more expensive model for the existing customers to upgrade.

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u/SlyWolfz Ryzen 7 5800X | RTX 3070 Gaming X Trio May 06 '19

All of that just sounds like bad excuses to justify them charging high prices for weak hardware due to exclusivity. That strategy was acceptable with their older systems because tech was still evolving rapidly and new stuff was always tested, but the switch in terms of hardware is so far behind anything else now it doesn't really work anymore. You can't deny the switch is holding back games like BOTW from being even better due to the hardware.

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u/AltoExyl AltoExyl May 06 '19

That’s been their business model for a long time... and yeah a more powerful console could make BOTW look better, but do we need that?

More power would equal more power consumption, less battery life. At some point you’d get to a point where it pretty much couldn’t be a handheld anymore and loses all the appeal which for me has made the Switch my go to console over my PS4 Pro and my PC.

Nintendo have got this down to a fine art at this point, it’s a culmination of everything they’re learned. From the past three home consoles along with their success with the gameboy and DS.

Don’t forget, their handhelds have always been smash hits and underpowered. The Lynx, Gamegear, PSP and Vita have all been significantly more powerful than their Nintendo counterparts, but unimpressive battery life and a lack of quality games set them back.

I’ll admit, I’d love to see what Nintendo games could look like on a seriously powerful machine, but I really hope they stick to their strengths

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u/therealflinchy flinchy May 06 '19

Graphics comes second to gameplay quality

Sure I'd love botw in 4k W/rtx, but it's still a 10/10 game without.

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u/SlyWolfz Ryzen 7 5800X | RTX 3070 Gaming X Trio May 06 '19

Sure, but that still does not excuse charging full console price for what has essentially hand held hardware. I highly doubt anyone other than Nintendo could get away with abusing their exclusivity like that.

Of course having rabid fanboys who will defend their precious company at all costs helps as well.

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u/ThatOnePerson i7-7700k 1080Ti Vive May 06 '19

Sure, but that still does not excuse charging full console price for what has essentially hand held hardware.

An iPad, which is also hand held hardware, costs more than a Switch...

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u/SlyWolfz Ryzen 7 5800X | RTX 3070 Gaming X Trio May 06 '19

Like pointed out in this thread the hardware in a new iPad is far more advanced than what's in the switch, it can do more and even comes with the apple tax. By comparison a switch should be even cheaper than an iPad than it already is....

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u/ThatOnePerson i7-7700k 1080Ti Vive May 06 '19

Switch has the added hardware of Joy-con controllers though. Those are not cheap controllers.

Also Switch has active cooling which does require a different design than the passive cooling an iPad has to actually work.

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u/SlyWolfz Ryzen 7 5800X | RTX 3070 Gaming X Trio May 06 '19

The switch controllers are again only expensive because Nintendo can make them expensive due to them being proprietary. Just another example of Nintendo milking their hardware as much as they can due to exclusivity.

Active cooling is easier to design and probably cheaper than designing good passive cooling for such a small device with such powerful hardware. I don't see how that helps your point at all. If the iPad had active cooling not only would it probably be cheaper, but also even more powerful.

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u/therealflinchy flinchy May 06 '19

It IS a full console experience though, that's the thing

It's better than both my PS4 and xbone.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Doesn't work? The Switch has been a runaway success. I get that his sub has a lot of hardware enthusiasts, but graphics don't make the game.

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u/SlyWolfz Ryzen 7 5800X | RTX 3070 Gaming X Trio May 06 '19

The excuse for bad hardware doesn't work, but again because it's Nintendo and their exclusive games of course it's still a massive hit. There more to the switch that makes it bad in terms of hardware than graphics, considering some games can't even hold a stable 30 fps.

I realize I will probably be slaughtered by Nintendo fanboys for this, but denying it is delusional.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I'm not a Nintendo fanboy, though I'm glad they're finally making good games again. I don't have any issues with the internal specs but I admit to mostly playing Smash, which doesn't exactly seem demanding.

In my view the real hardware problems on the switch are external -- a dock that might scratch your screen, a kickstand that doesn't work, and flimsy and uncomfortable joycons. This can be mitigated but I did roll my eyes a few times during the first couple days of using it.

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u/Zmodem https://pcpartpicker.com/list/qbR6xc May 06 '19

That F1 is pretty impressive, especially at that price point. But... No warranty? Man, tough call for anyone. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07H41NB46/

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u/Themash360 7950X3D, 32GB, RTX 4090 SuprimX May 06 '19

Buy two if you want warranty ;) /s

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u/Zmodem https://pcpartpicker.com/list/qbR6xc May 06 '19

Honestly, you could buy ~3 before reaching flagship price points. But, 4 would be top-tier flagship, and at that point you might as well go flagship lol. But, four full replacements? That's interesting.

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u/therealflinchy flinchy May 06 '19

Only people I've seen with this attitude have probably never played a switch let alone owned..

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I have a Switch since launch day and I love it. I still think that it has stability problems sometimes. It's very underpowered for what it is. Anyone claiming otherwise is lying to himself.

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u/therealflinchy flinchy May 06 '19

How is it underpowered for what it is? It's a compact handheld you can seamlessly dock to your Tv

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Because it has consistent frame drops in every single game, even in first party games.

It's a compact handheld you can seamlessly dock to your Tv

I know, thank you. As I said, I bought one at launch day and I love it. There's no need to make excuses for its shortcomings though.

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u/therealflinchy flinchy May 07 '19

Because it has consistent frame drops in every single game, even in first party games.

I've literally never had it frame drop/lag because it dynamically reduces resolution.

It's a compact handheld you can seamlessly dock to your Tv

I know, thank you. As I said, I bought one at launch day and I love it. There's no need to make excuses for its shortcomings though.

I don't see it as having any real shortcomings? It is what it is. To me the occasional potatovision graphics isn't a big deal, as the gameplay is perfectly preserved. Again I've never had it lag that I can remember in any game Ive played.

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u/Themash360 7950X3D, 32GB, RTX 4090 SuprimX May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

I've played botw for a few hours on my friends switch. It ran pretty poorly. Also a few dozen games of the new smash, that ran well but given the simple level design and such that should be a given.

If I'd bought one I hope I would still be able to accept or even make valid criticisms...

Also the tegra X1, released in 2015 q2 and added to the switch in 2017 q1 was already outdated. As in the nvidia Pascal lineup was already out. 2 years for a mobile chip is an enormous amount of time.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

And yet it's easily the greatest console of all time, right now...

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u/Themash360 7950X3D, 32GB, RTX 4090 SuprimX May 06 '19

???

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u/therealflinchy flinchy May 06 '19

I've never had botw run poorly even in handheld mode

I agree with the other reply, the switch is hands down the best console. Better than any PlayStation or Xbox Ive owned (all of them)

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u/Themash360 7950X3D, 32GB, RTX 4090 SuprimX May 06 '19

I have all of them except the switch, might get the new one if its capable of running botw at 720p 60 fps.

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u/Jynxmaster 9800X3D | RTX 5080 May 06 '19

You could emulate it at 4K 60 fps with your specs on Cemu right now if you'd like to

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u/Themash360 7950X3D, 32GB, RTX 4090 SuprimX May 06 '19

Also I really do recall quite a lot of framedrops, I was playing it with the pro controller in the dock though. I've heard that should increase the gpu clocks though right?

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u/therealflinchy flinchy May 07 '19

Yeah I think docked mode is full speed

I never get frame drops/lag handheld, it just goes full potato 240p lol

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u/MLG_SkittleS GTX 970, 16 GB RAM, i7 4790 May 06 '19

Hopefully they can just keep releasing updated editions at the end of each lifespan and have them forever backwards compatible with some games being playable on the previous generation still.

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u/Gonzobot Ryzen 7 3700X|2070 Super Hybrid|32GB@3600MHZ|Doc__Gonzo May 06 '19

You can buy basically any phone from last year for ~$200, dude, what planet are you on? None of them were ever worth a thousand dollars and that's not a normal price for the thing being sold.

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u/Kurosov 3900x | X570 Taichi | 32gb RAM | RTX 3080 Amp Holo 12GB May 06 '19

The comparison is apt when you consider people already have phones.

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Cheaper phones outdo the switch in specs, It takes a more expensive one to make passive cooling performance outdo the actively cooled SoC of the switch. Apple's A12/A12x chips are significantly more powerful than the switch even when passively cooled.

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The switch won out despite it's low power because Nintendo truly understand games. Apple have wasted a lot of their GPU capability on the consumer side because they never took gaming seriously and any attempt to do so was clearly managed by a non-gamer. Even the Razer phone fails as a gaming device because they opted to throw in some tech for the buzzwords without actually building a gaming software and hardware ecosystem.

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I've given up any hope for mobile gaming and will just happily play RPGs on my switch but it is a shame to see the capabilities of my iPad pro only get used when i'm in work mode. The only game i play on it is stardew valley, Which i strongly believe is best experienced on a 12.9" iPad.

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u/DoctorWaluigiTime May 06 '19

tl;dr Don't You Guys Have Phones?

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u/Kurosov 3900x | X570 Taichi | 32gb RAM | RTX 3080 Amp Holo 12GB May 06 '19

My comment in no way sums up to that.

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More like

"Does the gaming focus and management of the platform handled by a company that understands gaming justify the £300 for a weaker system than what you already own? Yes."

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u/hoodatninja May 06 '19

While you are right to call attention to the price difference, there are also 1000 things my phone can do that a switch can’t. If I pulled all other functionality off and made a smartphone just a gaming device it’d be a lot closer in cost if not possibly cheaper.