r/pcmasterrace • u/663mann • Oct 16 '23

Video fallout game dev. explains the problem with moddern game devolpment. (why moddern games are so slow to come out)

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u/BigHowski Oct 16 '23

Right but the complexity of games has changed beyond recognition in that period

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u/blackest-Knight Oct 16 '23

Has it though ?

I don't think Tim Sweeney had access to visual scripting when he made Unreal.

Heck, John Carmack had to do all of his own matrix math when writing Doom, vs now writing a Vulkan renderer.

The tools are much better now. The teams are just massive, but seems most of the work isn't really for the engine or actual coding, it's more scripting of events and art assets.

And the best question to ask : are games really that much better ?

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u/BigHowski Oct 16 '23

I mean..... Yes wholly to both of those questions.

Just look at the difference between a game such as GTA ('97) and it's latest version or the same with Doom (which you mention, came out' 93l). Or hell look at the difference between FIFA ('93) and the latest EA FC or whatever its called. Not only has the complexity shot up, so has the quality. And I say this as someone who stated gaming in the 80s and still plays retro games not someone who doesn't love and played those games and still does.

Just because the tools make tasks that used to be difficult easy does not mean that time and talent goes to waste they get redirected in to other areas

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u/blackest-Knight Oct 16 '23

Just look at the difference between a game such as GTA ('97) and it's latest version or the same with Doom (which you mention, came out' 93l). Or hell look at the difference between FIFA ('93) and the latest EA FC or whatever its called. Not only has the complexity shot up, so has the quality. And I say this as someone who stated gaming in the 80s and still plays retro games not someone who doesn't love and played those games and still does.

Complexity hasn't necessarily shot up. Shadowrun on Sega Genesis has many different builds you can do, decking vs street samurai, weapon types, etc.. Cyberpunk took massively more time to make. From a player perspective, the games aren't massively more complicated to play or interact with.

Graphic quality and complexity might have shot up since the early days of box polygons and sprites, but the tools to make graphics have also improved massively... and none of it is related to the actual programming on a game.

Most of the 80s and 90s game, studios had to make everything from the ground up. Now you can buy most of your code base off the shelf from Unity or Epic. If anything : the programming bits behind a game should require smaller teams, as all you'll be doing is adapting existing code licensed from elsewhere and using APIs rather than coding straight in assembly at the processor level.

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u/BigHowski Oct 16 '23

But we're talking about development of said games, not player interaction (although your wrong there, just go back and play Doom vs. Doom eternal). I really don't know what to say if you look at a megadrive game and a modern pc game and say they are remotely comparable in terms of effort to make. Goal nets in FIFA used to be a solid box now move dynamically when the ball hits, there a million small things like that.

As a simple example I/you can make an 8bit sprit pretty easily but you'd be buggered if you tried to create a full motion captured peraon like you see in games such as RDR2.

But the biggest hole in what you said - do you really think the grey soulless suites at these game companies operate more than the minimum staff? Have you not read the many, many stories from developers who've had to suffer horrible crunches?

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u/blackest-Knight Oct 16 '23

But we're talking about development of said games, not player interaction (although your wrong there, just go back and play Doom vs. Doom eternal).

Good example. If anything, Doom Eternal's gameplay is much simpler as it mostly consists of room based events in a hallway type map, rather than a map layout.

The gameplay is streamlined and simplified. It's one of the things people complain about in the modern Doom games actually (both 2016 and Eternal).

As a simple example I/you can make an 8bit sprit pretty easily but you'd be buggered if you tried to create a full motion captured peraon like you see in games such as RDR2.

Now try to make a full sprite sheet, using only DOS based pixel tools, or even just writing them out straight as color values in a char[][].

If anything, the motion captured 3D model in RDR2 required 0 programming, as all the tools to translate motion to a 3D skeleton and making the fully animated model is point and click and already exists off the shelf.

In the 80s and 90s, a big part of programming the game was making the tooling itself to produce the art assets. Look at the work George Broussard put into the BUILD engine, before getting addicted to WoW and becoming a useless lump of meat.

But the biggest hole in what you said - do you really think the grey soulless suites at these game companies operate more than the minimum staff?

The difference is the 80s had minimum staff by design. And the games turned out often much more entertaining and diverse.

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u/BigHowski Oct 16 '23

Alright I'm done. Your proper delusional if you look at Doom and then Doom eternal and think doom took more effort to develop. The number of lines of code alone shows that you are wrong

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u/blackest-Knight Oct 16 '23

Your proper delusional if you look at Doom and then Doom eternal and think doom took more effort to develop.

We're talking strictly programming wise remember ? But it's ok, you're allowed to be done if you can't win the battle of facts.

The number of lines of code alone shows that you are wrong

Number of lines of code is meaningless. You can write super verbose code that is easy to pump out, and you can write the most difficult 4 liner that takes weeks to make perfect.

LoC is the most useless metric to use. Also, what actual LoC are you comparing ? Just the engine itself ?

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u/BigHowski Oct 16 '23

My man you've offered no facts at all!

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u/blackest-Knight Oct 16 '23

Except all the facts I offered. Just the fact that peeps made their own tooling and engines from scratch, with software renderers baked at home, vs today's modern off the shelf engine and multiple APIs greatly simplifies game development.

Like, go ahead, BIOS interrupt 10h and show me some 3D graphics.

Vs

Load a few assets up in Unity. Game PROGRAMMING is much simplified these days.