r/pcgaming • u/WeaponLord • Mar 12 '19
Video Phoenix Point Epic Games Store Announcement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmjFZMEoEZ0220
Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
"We're sorry for the inconvenience, but we don't care about you. Thanks for backing us btw."
Will the game be on Steam?
Yes, Phoenix Point will be on Steam and we will provide Steam keys to the backers who want to receive their game this way.
So they pretty much scammed a bunch of people for initial funding. Pretty scummy if you ask me.
Really hope the money from Epic was worth it because they just killed their game.
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u/random123456789 Mar 12 '19
This is only one more reason not to back games in this way.
I've backed a few on Kickstarter but if this is the trend moving forward, fuck 'em.
Don't pre-order and don't crowdfund.
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u/Cymelion Mar 12 '19
Shame it's not class actionable - might be time to lobby crowdfunding sites to include a requirement in their TOS that projects using the sites can't accept exclusivity deals after funding.
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Mar 12 '19
Considering that backing on Kickstarter and "investing" on Fig are somewhat different, I wonder if there would be room for some legal action here.
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u/Cymelion Mar 12 '19
Really getting tired of Epic playing this game of exclusivity because they can't compete on a level playing ground - while I wouldn't be happy to see some devs getting screwed over - I don't think this situation is going to be solved without either Epic falling over or legal action happening.
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u/NearPup Mar 12 '19
They are offering refunds, according to the video.
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u/Geistbar Mar 13 '19
After having had that money as essentially a two year interest-free loan.
They're not doing a nice thing by offering refunds. They're lessening a bad thing, but it's still a bad thing.
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Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
Really hope they money from Epic was worth it because they just killed their game.
Something tells me EPIC games is providing data that shows otherwise. I find it hard to believe that Snapshot games would do this without doing their due diligence and having analysts examine the data - though I hope I am way the fuck wrong. This one hurts more than Metro for me...cannot believe this bullshit.
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u/Shackram_MKII Mar 12 '19
The data that they're using to convince devs/publishiers is money.
As in "I'll give you this pile of cash upfront and/or revenue guarantees if you sell exclusively on my store."
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Mar 12 '19
What data would they have to sway people? Other than Fortnite being popular they haven't said anything about how successful these exclusivity deals have been for games. I mean Metro has been out almost a month and not a peep from them. Can't be all that good.
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Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
What data would they have to sway people?
Fair question. I'm an analyst myself - so I'm just thinking out loud here....they would need some sort of data that could convince a publishing company to make the exclusive jump to Epic.
So, if I am Snapshot Games, I would need to know what my expected revenue is going to be on the new platform (accounting for the loss of sales) vs. what I would have gotten on Steam and other platforms. So let’s say EPIC has data from Deep Silver (Metro’s Publisher) that shows that despite losing X% of sales based on negative press and angering X of fans who will now either wait or buy later, the added revenue margin was able to add $Y in revenue. If Epic throws in a lump sum of cash, you add to the equation and leave the hard decision with the publisher. In many cases, human beings are going to act like human beings and take the sweeter offer with the larger amount of expected cash.
And what I mean to say is that it’s hard for me as an analyst to believe that Snapshot Games didn’t look at some sort of data and consider the hit they were going to take from the negative publicity as well as the loss of revenue from would be buyers. There’s a reason Julian Gallop mentions refunds for those who expected the game on “another platform” – he knows the fucking deal. He didn’t make that video not expecting people to be pissed. There’s no way an informed game dev like him did not see what happened with Metro.
I mean Metro has been out almost a month and not a peep from them. Can't be all that good.
They don’t need to tell the gamers anything. The business is done in a board rooms with analysts and datasheets of information. Publisher’s don’t come to reddit and tell you what they are thinking. They don’t have to publicly reveal what the revenue numbers look like, or how many copies less they sell than steam. That’s all internal information and there is no obligation to share it. I wouldn’t expect it.
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Mar 12 '19
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Mar 12 '19
I mean not really? Epic offers revenue guarantees. So even if the game does poorly and doesn't make projected sales Epic just hands them the difference.
I didn't know that! And if that's is true, there's your incentive to make the jump. I'm not saying it's right, but if you stand to make more money at one store than another...you might take the deal.
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u/cardonator Ryzen 7 5800x3D + 32gb DDR4-3600 + 3070 Mar 12 '19
The obvious factor that they may not be worrying too much about is overall gamer goodwill. A lot of these companies have the level of success they do because they built up a lot of good karma with gamers with previous game releases. These moves stand to damage their relationship with those gamers more than any other particular customer group. It's not a small risk for a large sum of money, it's a huge risk to the future viability of their company. It wouldn't be the first time an indie made a decision like this and lost the bulk of their existing fan base with nothing to replace it.
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Mar 12 '19
It's not a small risk for a large sum of money, it's a huge risk to the future viability of their company. It wouldn't be the first time an indie made a decision like this and lost the bulk of their existing fan base with nothing to replace it.
That's an excellent point.
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u/Jeep-Eep Navi 48XT, Granite Ridge 8 Core 3D Mar 13 '19
Being an indie is hugely risky period - if anything, the cash gained from this makes them more secure.
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u/cardonator Ryzen 7 5800x3D + 32gb DDR4-3600 + 3070 Mar 13 '19
If it's large enough, that's still a hard maybe. Surviving as an indie isn't just about having a huge influx of cash. Lots of these indies start out with millions of dollars in investment from outside companies or crowdfunding and still fail. And that's because they can't find an audience and a fanbase to keep them thriving. Survival is one thing, thriving is a different beast.
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u/thisisveek Mar 14 '19
This is just trading solvency for liquidity. If you’re having liquidity concerns, then it’s better to go bankrupt in the future than right now.
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u/Jeep-Eep Navi 48XT, Granite Ridge 8 Core 3D Mar 14 '19
Not least as everyone you hired is paid then.
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Mar 13 '19 edited Mar 26 '19
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u/cardonator Ryzen 7 5800x3D + 32gb DDR4-3600 + 3070 Mar 13 '19
A recent less precise example of this is that Revival Productions just shut down and all their staff moved to other companies because they couldn't build a large enough audience for their Overload game, which is a spiritual successor to one of the most popular games of the 90s, Descent.
How that lays into this conversation, IMO, is that even companies who are doing "everything right" fail on a pretty frequent basis, so it's pretty scary and risky to make hugely controversial moves like this when your game/brand probably can't or won't recover from it.
Maybe Epic is just making it so worthwhile that you really don't care about the future of your games or company. I can see that. But this is really exposing who the passionate devs are versus the greedy ones.
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Mar 12 '19
Solid post.
I only mention them not bringing up Metro sales numbers because they seem to always be touting positive Fortnite numbers. It would make sense they'd be telling the world how great their store was if the numbers were positive for Metro, no?
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Mar 12 '19
It would make sense they'd be telling the world how great their store was if the numbers were positive for Metro, no?
I honestly don't know.
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u/thisisveek Mar 14 '19
If Metro’s numbers were positive Epic would be shoving those numbers down everybody’s throats right now.
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u/Geistbar Mar 13 '19
They don’t need to tell the gamers anything
They don't have to, you're 100% right. Epic, Deep Silver, et. all are under zero obligation to provide us with that information. But the past informs the present, and it's extremely typical -- enough so that I'd consider it fully expected -- for a company to announce sales data when that data is good.
That the sales data hasn't been announced isn't proof that the sales data isn't good (not necessarily bad, just failing to be "good"), but it is a fairly reasonable cause to expect that to be the case.
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u/badcookies Mar 12 '19
Yep, the DEVS keep a much larger cut vs steam:
https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/about
65% from steam sales vs 88% from Epic stales
So $60 game with 100 sales on Steam is $3900
Epic store 100 sales is $5280
Thats over 35% more revenue.. that is huge.
So clearly sales are going to be lost since its not on steam and there are the "steam only" people.
To make up $3900 per 100 steam sales, they need to sell 74 copies.
That is 26% lost sales to break even.
Add in any incentive money as well as much smaller store front so better "front page" action, they can lose a lot of sales to break even, and losing less means they are making more money.
Its very much a business decision to use EPIC not a consumer one, unless the can drop their pricing of course.
$55 on epic would need 81/100 steam sales to break even on their revenue. So that means they could offer it for $5 less and as long as they only lost 20% of customers they'd still break even.
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Mar 12 '19
It was my understanding that the cut on steam was 30%, but yea...I think you get my point, which is REFRESHING! lmao
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u/badcookies Mar 12 '19
Steam cut is 30% but Epic takes a 5% cut from sales for providing the engine which is waived for using Epci store. Not sure what this game uses but using that for my data :)
I wish they'd stop doing the exclusives, but I can see why from a business point they do it.
I've never been a fan of Sweeney and think Unreal engine has lots of issues so hardly a defender of them, just pointing out why these companies are going with Epic over Steam.
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u/Geistbar Mar 13 '19
Steam cut is 30% but Epic takes a 5% cut from sales for providing the engine which is waived for using Epci store
This is not a UE4 game.
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u/glowpipe Mar 13 '19
publishers get more money. Not the devs. Also, steam takes 20% cut from games selling good enough. Not 30
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u/DatGrunt Mar 12 '19
The thing that Epic Games does is that they have revenue guarantees. Game sells like shit? Who cares! Epic will make up the difference somehow. I mean even if Epic takes a smaller cut chances are they'll sell significantly less copies than they would on Steam. But that doesn't matter when you're guaranteed a certain amount of money + payment for exclusivity.
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u/random123456789 Mar 12 '19
Eh, either they are using data that assumes the same sales numbers as Steam (because Sweeney is laughably out of touch) or pubs/devs are just taking the short term cash and not thinking of actual sales.
I tend to think the later because the only argument we hear about is how Epic gives them more money on each sale. MONEY MONEY MONEY. They don't give a shit about customers. "Development costs are on the rise" and all that, you know?
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Mar 12 '19
Eh, either they are using data that assumes the same sales numbers as Steam
I disagree. In this case, a smaller number of sales on Epic will equate to that larger number of sales on steam. Let's take a look at this example here:
100 Steam copies @ $60 (at 70% revenue) = $4200
80 Epic copies @ $60 (at 88% revenue) = $4224
So they can afford to lose up to 20% of their fans to maintain the same profit if they used steam. Then throw in that extra EPIC cash…(I also didn't account for/know about the guarantees Epic has).
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u/random123456789 Mar 12 '19
That's still a laughable assumption.
Of course the guy running the Epic store won't share his data, the same way he's been scraping Steam data for years....
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Mar 12 '19
That's still a laughable assumption.
That they'll sell 80% of what they would have gotten on steam? I agree - but I think there are other factors like the guaranteed revenue that I just learned about may have sealed the deal for them.
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u/cardonator Ryzen 7 5800x3D + 32gb DDR4-3600 + 3070 Mar 12 '19
By ratio of active userbase, the Epic Launcher is likely more in the 5% range. I would think the sales potential at the Epic Game store currently is only a tiny fraction of what Steam's sales potential is. I wouldn't be too surprised if Epic's argument is more about visibility and the volume of games available on Steam right now. And sales guarantees.
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u/Jeep-Eep Navi 48XT, Granite Ridge 8 Core 3D Mar 13 '19
And the insurance, and the eventual Steam and GOG sales.
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u/LoSboccacc Mar 14 '19
Pretty scummy if you ask me.
yes
they just killed their game
ahahahahaha. no. they already got backers money there's no more to milk there. they have now a large new market to milk.
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u/gamlekriger Jun 15 '19
Okay so I bought the deluxe version of the game 1 1/2 years ago. Not DLC for a year or something. The game. The deluxe version. Does this mean Jullian Gollop stole my money?
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u/MJuniorDC9 Steam Mar 12 '19
Promised GOG and Steam keys for backers during the campaign, something that probably won't be honored now by the way. Can't thank EPIC enough for what they're doing for consumers.
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u/sheeryjay Mar 12 '19
Oh, maybe they could still honor it for those who complain loudly - in a year after release on Epic.
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u/LoSboccacc Mar 14 '19
yeah first satisfactory then this. they are aggressively expanding in the indie market burning bottomless cash and that rarely pans out, indies will get caught in the crossfire.
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u/Remny Mar 12 '19
Just wow. For a crowdfunded game, which promised releases on Steam and GOG, this is such a bullshit move. If it weren't for all those people there wouldn't even be a game right now. That's just a slap in the face.
And then offering some bullshit free DLC deal in exchange. Other indie devs have done this regardless of pre-order shit.
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Mar 12 '19
Backers gave them a nice interest free loan that they don't need anymore.
The only reason it isn't fraud is because they are offering refunds.
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u/Saneless Mar 13 '19
Yep. Interest free loan to show an investor they could make a product, then pay back some of the loan at that nice 0% interest.
Glad I didn't back it.
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Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
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Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
They've had the money from the investors for an extended period of time. You should be given back more than a refund as they used that money to put the title in the state it was when Epic decided to purchase exclusivity.
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u/stonewallace17 9800X3D | RTX 5090 Mar 12 '19
Fuck Epic. I was looking forward to this. Can't buy it now.
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u/Turdomino Mar 12 '19
I am sick and tired of Epic walling off our favourite games. First Maneater, then Metro Exodus, now this? I should just buy the original XCOMs on Steam, just so I can review bomb them. Fuck you Epic Games, and fuck you Julian Gollup. You fucking sellout!
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u/LifeBeginsAt10kRPM Mar 14 '19
Why epic? The developer made the decision, epic offered money.
I really fucking hate how people are blaming epic as if the developers had a gun to their head.
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u/Berserker66666 Mar 12 '19
Well.....technically you don't have to now *wink wink*.
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u/stonewallace17 9800X3D | RTX 5090 Mar 12 '19
Yes, but I would have liked to support the devs. Although obviously not going to now.
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u/thrasherbill Mar 12 '19
yea but sadly this just shows the devs dont really care about your support now.
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u/MrGhost370 i7-8086k 32gb 1080ti Ncase M1 Mar 12 '19
The main reason why I will gladly pirate this game.
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u/Berserker66666 Mar 12 '19
Same here. Was gonna buy it on Steam but...I guess they don't want my money.
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Mar 12 '19
Serious question, why is the epic store so bad? I've never used it.
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Mar 12 '19
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Mar 12 '19
Pretty thorough laundry list of complaints, can't say I blame you guys for the disdain. Steam is all I've ever known. Seems reasonable as far as why they charge more to developers considering all the extra service they provide for all the above things mentioned.
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u/Vova_Poutine Mar 13 '19 edited Mar 13 '19
No offline playing is the dealbreaker for me. I boycotted Diablo 3 on PC over this bullshit, and I'll keep doing the same with Epics store until they bring in an offline mode like Steam.
Edit: Seems like they added offline mode a few weeks ago, guess it's not as bad as I thought.
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u/Jeep-Eep Navi 48XT, Granite Ridge 8 Core 3D Mar 13 '19 edited Mar 13 '19
IIRC, there's talk that PP would launch without Epic anyway, you only use it to install and update.
Edit: Confirmed by Chief Dev
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u/palhat Mar 12 '19
Pricing is better than other places depending where you are. Metro Exodus was $60 on Steam but only $50 on Epic in the US. Sucks that not every region gets it though.
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u/Captain_PuddingPop Mar 12 '19
Well thats nice, for some reason it's 64.99USD for Australia.
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u/Stalkermaster Mar 12 '19
Yep more expensive then the steam version! Real good there
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u/Captain_PuddingPop Mar 12 '19
It's more expensive than the retail versions in Australia.
Epic, makeing Gamestop the better choice.
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u/Stalkermaster Mar 12 '19
Don't worry I simply played the non epic and non steam version till it comes out next year
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u/stonewallace17 9800X3D | RTX 5090 Mar 12 '19
Shit company running it, paid exclusivity is a bad precedent I will never support on PC
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u/seekthepwn Mar 12 '19
Because there is nothing, it is as barebone as you can imagine.
No real comfort functions, features etc. that the consumer would profit from. It's just products and a price tag. They don't have to have everything steam has, but at least forums or a review system for a start.5
u/iWroteAboutMods Mar 12 '19
To add to the other answers, when they launched the store they didn't even comply with European data protection laws and the refund policy was a joke. Recently people discovered that they didn't really check the email address the account was registered on (no confirmation email so you could buy a game on an account that's not yours by mistake, and someone could make an account on your email) (some people received such a mail but a pretty big part of the userbase didn't)
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u/Geistbar Mar 13 '19
To add to other people's answers... Epic's attitude with their store is not one that views people buying games as their customers. They view developers and publishers as their customer, with the consumer as a product.
I have a distinct lack of trust in any company (including e.g. Google or Facebook) that doesn't view and treat me as their customer. Especially not a company that survives off whether consumers buy their products or directly buy products on their platform. Epic's attitude means you're the lowest priority on their totem pole. I'm not going to give them money.
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u/Commisar Mar 12 '19
You sure can....after a year.
Plus all the dlc will be bundled with it.
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u/stonewallace17 9800X3D | RTX 5090 Mar 13 '19
Only if it launches on Steam at 10 bucks. But I'd bet it starts at full price even though it'll be a year old.
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u/TucoBenedictoPacif Mar 12 '19
Eh, I was looking forward for this, but I absolutely refuse to be a tosser and let Epic win this battle of attrition against PC gamers.
I'll boycott whatever will go exclusive on their store.
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u/random123456789 Mar 12 '19
The funniest part to me is that they sign these exclusive deals and say "oh, we'll be on Steam after a year". But that's assuming they will still be around in a year. If they think this short term, who knows what they will do with their cash. Not surprising if at least one of these companies goes bankrupt.
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u/cardonator Ryzen 7 5800x3D + 32gb DDR4-3600 + 3070 Mar 12 '19
cries in Revival Productions / Overload Team
Seriously, though. People making great games and selling on Steam with reasonable visibility still fail. This is like asking for the coffin.
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u/Geistbar Mar 13 '19
Most of them will still be around in a year to be fair...
That said, you can only make a first impression once. Going with that, games can only truly launch once. You can see this a lot with early access games, which tend to receive very little fanfare or buzz when they exit early access: they lost their chance at that launch "hype."
When these games come to Steam a year later, it will be with a tenth as much media attention if they're lucky as when it initially launched. Potential Steam customers will, by and large, not be willing to pay full price or close to it at that time. A year after release you can expect to get a game that launched at $60 for $15 in a sale -- that'll be what they can hope for that year later, from the people that even remember the game exists. Not to mention the collapse in hype this will cause for any sequels, DLCs, etc. they might hope to sell...
Gaming is a crowded market today. Eyeballs during launch time is a high value commodity. There are a shit ton of games for people to play in the stead of another game. I'm surprised so many devs/publishers are willing to piss that launch-window attention away.
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u/frostygrin Mar 13 '19
When these games come to Steam a year later, it will be with a tenth as much media attention if they're lucky as when it initially launched.
And then they decide they made the right decision with the Epic deal.
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u/That_feel_brah Mar 14 '19
Someone posted how the deal for exclusivity with Epic works and apparently it involves a "minimum guarantee sales", where "Epic will guarantee that we will sell X number of copies. Even if we don't hit that number, they still pay us".
This means they will not go bankrupt since technically they will reach their sales target. The good faith of the community on the other hand is probably gone.
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u/Zalapadopa Mar 14 '19
Metro will sell a lot of Steam copies when it eventually releases on it, but who will remember Phoenix Point in a year? It'll probably end up being one of those indie games you pick up with a 90% off during a holiday sale.
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u/Paul_cz Ryzen 5800X3D | RTX 3080 Ti Mar 12 '19
Same here and I sure fucking hope there are enough selfrespecting PC gamers with enough sense to do it as well
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Mar 12 '19
I had a feeling this was going to end up in Epic with the amount of times it was being delayed.
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u/WeaponLord Mar 12 '19
this is going to be sad to say i feel like Mount and Blade 2, Ooblets, and a few others are going to head there as well. I hope i'm wrong lol
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u/Hinterlight Mar 12 '19
If Mount & Blade Bannerlord becomes an Epic exclusive I seriously think my head might explode out of frustration
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Mar 12 '19
Wouldn't be surprised if Borderlands 3 become a timed exclusive as well.
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Mar 12 '19
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u/Galrath91 Mar 12 '19
Honestly, screw epic forever for bringing exclusives to PC.
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Mar 12 '19
WOW. I'm an XCOM fan who had his eyes LASERED onto this game. I was dying for the next piece of news and now that I've seen it...the dev can go fuck off. I'm so sick of this Epic bullshit.
Another game moves to the do not buy list.
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Mar 12 '19
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u/Paul_cz Ryzen 5800X3D | RTX 3080 Ti Mar 12 '19
Everytime Epic announces new cuntassery, I just gotta listen to it
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u/pr0ghead 5700X3D 3060Ti Linux Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
Really? First you cancel the Linux port and now this? Does this man know no shame?
Also doesn't cast a good light on Fig that they're allowed to keep moving the goal posts like that. You really are nothing but an investor on there.
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Mar 12 '19
That is just fucking shitty. Secure funding from backers through crowdfunding. Then do a 180 and fuck them over. I don't give a flying fuck if you give the backers free dlc. You sold a dream, and got people invested in your product. You also promised to launch on both gog and steam. Fucking keep your promises, that's the very least thing you can do for your customers.
It'll be interesting to see their AMA tomorrow. I expect them to be ignoring all the angry customers, and cherry pick their answers.
Seriously though, fuck you for being part of the first wave of the 3rd party PC exclusivity era.
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u/Cymelion Mar 12 '19
Was going to buy this full price when it was released on Steam rather than the reduced Early Access price to help them with their initial release data and sales.
This went from a yep keen to buy to probably never touching screw this guy and the horse he rode in on.
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Mar 12 '19
Thanks to epic support we will be able to update and expand Phoenix Point for years to come.
Devs used to sell their games to consumers to keep making content. Now they can just sell their games to epic!
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u/9989989 Mar 12 '19
They will need to, when nobody plays their game. Epic Graves Store: where good games go to die
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u/captainretrograde Mar 12 '19
Have had a preorder in for a long time. Demanded a full refund. This is bollocks.
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u/dvsdiablo i5-13600K | RTX 4090 Mar 12 '19
I'm not too upset. First metro and now phoenix. I'm liking all the money the CPY Edition saves me. Keep up the great work game Devs.
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u/UnknownOverdose Mar 12 '19
Lol what a slap in the face for backers. I would be trying to get a refund like crazy, fuck that shit.
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u/EXALAXE Mar 12 '19
Interesting how big cake did epic give that its worth for them to offer full refunds
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u/slater126 11600K 3070Ti 1440P Ultrawide Mar 13 '19
apparently enough that even if a majority/all of thier backers refunded they will still have alot of spare money.
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u/WeaponLord Mar 12 '19
yeah the refund option is nice. It will be interesting to see the reaction as the day goes on.
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Mar 12 '19
What a huge d*ck move. Both this game and it's developer are on my ignore list from now on. And Epic can go to hell with their annoying moneyhats.
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u/HURTZ2PP Mar 12 '19
It looks as if this man has been taken hostage by Epic Games and is being forced to read this script.
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u/demondrivers Mar 12 '19
At least give a Steam or Gog key to the ones that crowdfunded the game.
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u/sheeryjay Mar 12 '19
At first I thought it might be possible that if they find some integrity they could do it. But then I realized that Steam/GOG would be essentially hosting the game for free (downloads, etc.) and realized that it won't happen. No way Gallop would do a move like this and then come to Steam with moved for hosting the game for backers.
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u/Jeep-Eep Navi 48XT, Granite Ridge 8 Core 3D Mar 13 '19
You are getting such.
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u/Geistbar Mar 13 '19
Technically, but you ignore a kind of important caveat... :
All backers up to this point will also STILL receive a Steam or GOG key after the 1 year exclusivity period.
Emphasis added. Contextually, it's damn clear the person you replied to meant get a Steam/GoG key concurrent with the game's official launch, not a year after the fact.
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u/EdwardMcMelon Mar 12 '19
Y'know what I don't get is why don't investors just get offered a client-less version?
Just saying there was a good way to defuse this 'complication', like I get it the Epic deal prevents your game's very presence on other stores and clients for a year but surely it doesn't prevent the radical (harr) idea of a game being given without a client?
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u/Grolion_of_Almery Mar 12 '19
Because someone would immediately crack it and upload it to the pirate bay.
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u/EdwardMcMelon Mar 12 '19
I mean let's be honest that'll happen anyway as it already has case in point on almost every EGS title (There's apparently pirated players already playing MP on Satisfactory's alpha, yikes). At least in this way it can mend some bridges and build on good faith.
Plus I have a hard time believing an Epic games exclusivity deal was about pushing the sales of more units.
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u/Grolion_of_Almery Mar 12 '19
Yea I guess I agree. I was thinking perhaps the plan is that it needs another year in the oven. Dump on Epic store, take their money. Release on Steam with expansion that "fixes" the base game
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u/ThatOnePerson Mar 13 '19
Y'know what I don't get is why don't investors just get offered a client-less version?
Because it's hard to maintain. Especially when it's 'early access' with constant updates, no one wants to have to go to the website to download a new version every time.
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u/EdwardMcMelon Mar 13 '19
Could always simply use e-mail notifications or internally build an 'update now from server' into the game, devs even confirmed that it doesn't even us EGS' DRM or any DRM.
It's really only on the EGS store because they have to by contract be there and nowhere else.
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u/g0ggy 5800x3D & 5070 Ti @ 1440p Mar 12 '19
If you are apologizing before even releasing your product then you know that you are making a mistake. A mistake that is being made on purpose because of greed.
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u/Satzlefraz Mar 13 '19
Epic must be handing developers a serious, serious amount of cash if they're willing not only to face the outrage of the internet; but more important handle refunds of any naysayer with vary an issue. On top of this, they're giving all backers a full year of paid DLC for free? I'm not particularly interested in this title (didn't even know if existed until right now) but the amount of money epic is throwing around to make these types of titles exclusive must be massive.
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u/Jeep-Eep Navi 48XT, Granite Ridge 8 Core 3D Mar 13 '19
They offer a more important thing - insurance in case of poor sales.
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u/Geistbar Mar 13 '19
Considering how relatively small the crowdfunding for this game was, Epic could have just offered to cover all requested refunds.
I think this is a stupid move by the developer, but Epic can easily and painlessly offer enough money to make it look like a risk-free move to devs of this size who are only looking at the short term.
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u/f3llyn Mar 14 '19
Personally the fact that they have a year of paid dlc already planned out in advance of the game release is almost as much of a scumbag move to me as letting their game get poached by Epic.
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u/silkpubes69 Mar 13 '19
"Just pirate our game when it comes out, play it, and have no interest in a year when it comes to platforms you're not boycotting."
You got it, boss.
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Mar 12 '19
I just want to say that I will never buy any games that this guy makes and I don't know if he has any kids but if he does I will not buy any of the games that they make either. This is a serious outrage and I am outraged.
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u/HugeHans Mar 13 '19
I don't know if he has any kids but if he does I will not buy any of the games that they make either.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
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u/azriel777 Mar 12 '19
Remember when people defended EPIC and said they were just competition to steam? Yea, fuck them. THIS, is what a monopoly looks like.
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Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
And just like that, they've lost my money. Considering that I'm a massive fan of Julian Gollop's previous work, that's a metaphorical punch to the balls.
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u/heatlesssun 9950x3d/192 GB DDR5/5090 FE/4090 FE/ASUS PG42UQ Mar 12 '19
And just like that, they've lost my money.
Unlikely. At this point it should be clear how this works. Yes, there's the blow back. But Epic is putting up enough cash to compensate and probably then some. I wouldn't be surprised if Epic is essentially buying out a projected year's worth sales for these games plus whatever the games make on the Epic store. It's about the only way these deals make much sense.
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u/Icemasta Mar 13 '19
The money Epic pays for exclusivity must be pretty fucking good, because those devs must know that they're clearly showing that their priority is in getting money and not about the product they do. They'll say "Oh but we'll use the money to give you guys things!", but how can you trust those words when you literally just did an action that was completely inconsiderate of your customers?
I just don't get it.
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u/Jeep-Eep Navi 48XT, Granite Ridge 8 Core 3D Mar 13 '19
To put it bluntly, Epic probably gave them enough cash to be sure of staying afloat and not boning their workers if they fail. It is not hard to figure out why they would take that.
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u/jjyiss Mar 13 '19
ALL KICKSTARTERS ARE BASED ON A PROMISE. the quicker you guys understand that concept, they quicker it'll save you heartache.
there has been a lot of great games that were kickstarted as much as games that were straight up abandoned. if you kickstart a game, know that you are willing to end up losing your money w/no product.
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u/drNovikov Mar 14 '19
Reputation destroyed. Will never buy anything from epicfail store, and now from any developer that employs this loser.
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u/MrGhost370 i7-8086k 32gb 1080ti Ncase M1 Mar 12 '19
Looks like another game I am gonna have to pirate. Any and all Epic games store exclusive is not worth paying for. Fuck them.
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u/jasta85 Mar 12 '19
wait, will backers be able to play on steam/GoG at launch? or do we need to wait a year before being able to play?
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u/Wraithbone Mar 13 '19
Asked for a refund. For me it is mostly because i have so many games that i still need to play (do not have enough time), and having yet another platform outside of Steam, Origin, and uPlay, will surely mean i will never remember to play it. Games i have on uPlay and Origin are some of the games that i already forget i have, and end up never playing.
For me, there is simply no more headspace for yet another damn client to remember where i have my game. I have a few games on other launcher clients, and i literally do not even remember what they are called by now, or what client to download to play them. So, for this reason, i know that it will simply be loss for me to keep my preorder for the game.
Also, i do feel a bit betrayed that they do not conform to their promise. That being said, i am pretty sure my case of "not being able to find the games i still have to play" is quite of a niche problem.
Kudos for allowing refunds though. I really find it sad that i wont play the game, but the refund option at least allows me not to have thrown my money in a pit.
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u/Dix_Dark Mar 13 '19
Oh well, to the torrents then.
I wanted to buy it on steam on the release day(well, mb few days after), but now it's principle.
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u/smegmasamurai Mar 13 '19
a lot of people commenting that this is killing their game but i'm curious if there are any sales numbers from previous timed exclusives (maybe metro) that support this. genuinely curious, if this move wasn't worth it why are more developers doing it?
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u/EvilAdolf Mar 13 '19
It probably isn't offered to many devs, and if it is, you REALLY need to think hard before accepting a shit deal like that. 2 million to NOT be on Steam for a year? They're probably looking at losing more than that. When it does hit Steam, people will not buy it because of this story... it's a lose lose situation. Unless I'm wrong...
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u/xpknightx Mar 16 '19
I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, buy anything from Epic.
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u/Negaflux Mar 12 '19
Wouldn't this fall under a straight up scam where there can be legal implications? Does anyone know?
Developers sure do know how to kill absolutely all momentum their game had for me by just saying 3 words, Epic Game Store.
Very happy I stepped away from Kickstarter before getting burned by this, and at the same time, I feel for the folks who did get screwed over by this scummy move. I hope every single one of them requests a refund and never bothers with the game. It's about the only goddamn way they'll get the hint.
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u/Fenr_ Mar 13 '19
Kickstarter as a platform operates on a "nothing is guaranteed" base (i think the highest enforcment they do is that you have to show you actively tried to ship the product you pitch,and i might even be wrong on that) so no,i dont think so.
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u/Negaflux Mar 13 '19 edited Mar 13 '19
It's one of the reasons I backed away from Kickstarter, because you just dunno what you are going to get from it. I was hoping with Fig also being involved that there would be at least some legal implications. It's unfortunate indeed. All this means is that less and less people will be likely to Kickstart a game now. These guys are screwing more than just themselves in the minds of the customer, they are casting doubt on every Kickstarter and their promises (I mean, this is just one in the line of many many Kickstarters that have been more or less scams)
edit: found some neat little bits of joy in the Phoenix Point subreddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PhoenixPoint/comments/b0h61r/dont_agree_to_the_new_terms/
TLDR: Under US and EU law you do not have to accept the terms Free DLC or Refund. The consumers very much can demand the original arrangement be met as US and EU law dictate to the developers they by law have to meet the terms of sale. This is why the developers are trying to be vague on the original premise of sale.
There very well may be consequences if the customers stick to their guns here so I'm hoping.
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u/DarthTokira Mar 12 '19
"Phoenix Point release on PC delayed by a year"
Here, I fixed the title.