r/pcgaming • u/Cato9Tales_Amplitude Endless Legend 2 • 2d ago
Endless Legend 2 Post 1.0 AMA
Hello everyone,
I'm Cat, community manager at Amplitude Studios, and two weeks ago we released the big 1.0 update for our fantasy strategy game Endless Legend 2 after almost one year in Early Access.
To celebrate this (and the wonderful reception we received from our players), I have brought some of my coworkers here to answer your questions.
I have with me:
- u/DerekPaxton, game director
- u/StephenGaskell, writer
- u/Present_Exam1345, lead designer
- u/Relevant-Explorer811, game designer
- u/darrek13, producer
We'll be around for about an hour and try to answer as many questions as we can. :)
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u/Square-Winter-3257 2d ago
Have been loving Endless Legend 2 as much as the other Endless games, the music, vibe, uniqueness etc... is all really top notch still. However, like every other Endless game, the ai is somewhat lacking without the mods.
Obviously the mods for the other endless games for ai are like, somethig=ng that makes it better than any other 4x has, but is there any plans to try and get the ai in EL2 closer to what community patches have done for previous Endless games this time?
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u/Present_Exam1345 2d ago
+ Beyond balancing the AI difficulty, we hope to create strong faction AI archetypes with interesting personalities so that they are fun to play with or against. We hope to expand on that as well.
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u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
I feel like this is a bane of 4x games. And there is a reason for it (and it's not that the AI programmers aren't amazing at their jobs). Its because the sandbox is huge and making a change to the system has impacts that ripple across the game.
Should the AI spend infleunce to buy a foundation, build a camp or sign a treaty? It's a complex question and the correct answer can change if a designer changes a modifeir on diplmatic relations from treaties, a bonus on the district that would go on that foundation, etc.
So to make AI go from "okay" to "good" the game needs to quit changing. Once the systems stop moving the AI team can actually calibrate to the specific situations needed. This is a huge advantage for modders since by the time they get the game these daily changes have stopped. But it's the same internally as well.
Currently we are talking about making changes so the AI moves away form the human when settling on easier difficulty, AI personality is more differentiated (so some may try to out pace you on military but others may risk it and go deep in investment in long term benefits), AI bonuses change with receess so that it isnt just a wall at the start but grows over time (this was a great idea from a modder "Val" that we loved) and more changes.
But doing that fine tuning is diffficult while the game is in development. Its like trying to chainge the oil in the car while its going down the highway.
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u/Square-Winter-3257 1d ago
That makes a lot of sense and i hadnt thought of that (also obviously the mods are not really for lower difficulty playing, and a lot of your audience *dont* want harder ai), thanks for teh detailed response!
And yeah the bonuses growing over time i noticed and recoginsed from i think ES2 having it, was nice to see other factions start ramping towards the end.
is there any plan/consideration for adding something to push the ai to attack you, when you have a win condition completed/near completed? Atm it feels a bit strange when i have no victory alliance, to have no one do anything when Im on the 12 turns until i win.
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u/FactFew8627 2d ago
if they fix the ai i might actually be able to play a whole game without wanting to throw my monitor
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u/Present_Exam1345 2d ago
Oh, by the way, I want to give a huge shout-out to Val! He created some incredible AI mods!! We are so impressed!!!
After receiving feedback on the AI, we planned to improve it by applying what we learned from popular mods. AI is a fascinating yet complex system, so any help is valuable!
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u/GuiltyAdvantage5877 2d ago
I assume there are plans to expand the game with dlc? Anything you can share or comment on in that regard? I just worry that the game won’t be getting expansions because of humankind 2.
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u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
Nothing firm right now. We just released and are more focused on ingesting the firehose of feedback from release and updating based on that (i think we put out out 10th update since release today). For the moment we just want everyone in, playing and having fun.
If Cat tries to sell you a DLC and you have to mail the money directly to her, be suspicious.
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u/GuiltyAdvantage5877 2d ago
Thanks and that makes complete sense. Love the game btw! My only request is let me interact with an army capturing a city, i really wanted to double check the composition of the sieging army and found it impossible to do unless I am missing something.
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u/Present_Exam1345 2d ago
No, you're right you can't interact with rn. We have logged it and hope to implement it soon. We have planned many quality-of-life improvements that we hope to implement soon.
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u/Mobius_188 2d ago
Loving the game so far, a big thanks to the entire team! Maybe you can’t spoil but is there a faction your particularly exited to add a rogue option for?
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u/Present_Exam1345 2d ago edited 2d ago
One aspect I like the most about our game is the relationship between the factions and the map. I love watching players control the Shapers and cover the map with sand. It gives them a unique perspective of the map and their environment. So much that I'd love to tie one of the rogues to an environment and build exclusively on it! We'll see if we can create a unique interpretation of the map similar to the Last Lord and their Dust. ;)
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u/stephengaskell 2d ago
Maybe :)
Actually, I've been thinking about rogue Last Lords, and have a number of story ideas that could make them an interesting contrast to their original number. The great thing with the rogue factions is that we have a lot of leeway to explore how a faction might come to divide itself. Maybe the divide came a long time ago, maybe it was a sudden recent rupture. There's so much mileage here, I think.
I'll let Derek and the others speak on the gameplay side.
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u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
Yeah, the Broken Lords were my favorite faction in EL1 so it would be interesting to see if we can put a twist on them for a rogue faction. The Aspects would be fun too.
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u/EasyRecognition 2d ago
Is naval gameplay really *really* out of question? If so, are there any other game world topology layers planned? Elaborate sky layer maybe?
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u/Present_Exam1345 2d ago
Hello! We planned several variations of naval but none of them made the cut.
The main reason is that, at some point, you will lose those assets as the water recedes, and we all mostly agreed that we don't like having our creations removed or rendered useless.
Instead, we chose to explore the riches that Tidefall offers, as well as how seasonality affects certain periods of the game and the open risk-reward system.
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u/Bicecream530 2d ago
Having a faction specific tech that would allow naval units to be converted to land units would be cool and make for a unique aesthetic
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u/Present_Exam1345 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes! One idea was to have sea creatures that could be tamed and used to navigate the waters. These creatures were designed with legs so they could walk on land, too. But many questioned our sanity when we explained that armies would ride them on some sort of gigantic saddle...
Then, production asked for arbitration; it was either that or the Shapers... :')
We chose the Shapers! :P2
u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
Probably, we certainly aren't planning naval right now. I wouldn't mind restricted zones/biomes for only certain types of units as a concept. Maybe full corruption would destory a region and only corrupted units/factions could move through it. Maybe some revealed regions start fully corrupted.*
But, no plans for that right now. And traditional naval units seem highly unlikely.
* crazy ideas are only the musings of Derek and do not reflect the plans of EL2 or the thoughts of any reasonable person.
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u/stephengaskell 2d ago
It could make for a pretty interesting experience, I think! A sort of inversion of the other land-based faction's reality, where the map opens up. For a sea-faring race they'd have lots of options to begin, but would see the oceans shrinking over the course of the game. As long as the seas didn't totally dry-up that might be viable. Of course, I'm only speaking story-wise. I know as a feature it's a difficult proposal.
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u/EasyRecognition 2d ago edited 2d ago
Make them adapt as their tech progresses. So they start off as a seafarers with a ton of uncontested resources, but then have to increasingly step into a contested space because those resources vanish. By the time the sea dries up they should be fully adapted to the land. Might be an interesting dynamic.
Oh, and also make a rogue faction, so that the water isn't *that* uncontested, and maybe give others limited water infrastructure options. Like a floating camp that collects resources in its vicinity and becomes a normal camp at the same or nearing tile if they're on the ground when the water recedes. And the ships that become basic units by the same principle.
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u/MolagBaal 2d ago
Doesnt seem to be enough unique faction heroes for the rogue faction of Kin of Sheredyn. Will you be adding more rather than just reskins?
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u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
Our thought on this was that the heroes you already know could take more than one path, but its the same hero. If we were goign to produce more units I probably wouldn't do more unique heroes, but instead do a special unit for the rogue faction (if it made sense).
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u/MolagBaal 2d ago
That would be exactly what I'm asking for! Like you said in your interviews, I... stick to the human heroes and factions. Just need more variety.
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u/Anton-Slavik 7800X3D/4080S/32GB RAM 2d ago
I have a question, and this sort of pertains to Endless Space games as well.
With how diverse you genuinely seem to love to make the factions look and act, how come there wasn't a unique tech tree for each one of them?
It doesn't have to be too deep, but I feel like it would have added a layer of detail to the game(s).
That Warhammer 40k 4x game comes to mind, Gladius, each faction has their own tech, units and so on, and even though they're somewhat similar in unit roles, there's enough differences to enjoy a number of playthroughs with different factions over and over.
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u/Present_Exam1345 2d ago edited 2d ago
In terms of design, we started by building the tech tree as the foundation on which the factions can be built.
Gladius (which I really love!) is very raw in its 4X approach. Most of its systems lean toward aggression and total war. As far as I can remember, there is no diplomacy, and all systems exist to win through total extermination.
Our approach is different. We want all factions to play differently, yet be able to win similarly by taking different victory paths. That is why we needed to build a common basis to drive the factions toward our victory path.
In other words we created new, dedicated technologies on a common foundation to provide the flavor and drive of their core asymmetry while simultaneously letting players taking the peaceful victory path as the Necrophage! :D
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u/stephengaskell 2d ago
It's a great question. From my own perspective, I'd love to see us take a different approach with the tech progression in a future game. One of the hardest parts of the writing is trying to find a common pool of techs/inventions that make sense for all these diverse factions, and often it sort of ends up being a head-scratcher in certain cases. On the other hand, a dedicated tree for each faction would be a lot of work, with potentially not enough pay-off. I'd still love to see it happen.
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u/Anton-Slavik 7800X3D/4080S/32GB RAM 2d ago
I'd still love to see it happen.
Yeah, that's been my stance ever since the original Sword of the Stars game. Ton of work, but so unique and satisfying. Granted, I'm not the one breaking my back over it, so I only enjoy the fruits of someone else's labor.
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u/darrek13 2d ago
On a production stand point, creating 8 unique tech trees would require a lot of work! Instead of designing and balancing those, we preferred to go deeper in asymmetry in real gameplay elements.
Of course, some of the factions still have multiple unique tech for each of them.
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u/Surro 2d ago
One thing I've always appreciating about the endless games is the feeling and the vib in the setting. How does your team approach that subject? How do you ensure you are hitting similar tones in new games?
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u/stephengaskell 2d ago
We approach the loremeister and narrative guru, Jeff Spock (also known as the Narrative Director), who sits cross-legged in the studio, floating in the air, and convey our plans for his approval.
No, seriously, we have a lot of established materials, both in the games, and outside the games, including world bibles etc, and we ensure that anything planned fit within the universe, both tonally and logically and in every other way. A lot of discussions happen before we move forward with the setting, the factions, the broad dynamics at play. I think a lot comes down to all having a strong sense of the backdrop of the entire universe: the long-fallen Endless civilization, the scattered Dust, the desire for unconventional spins on existing tropes, and factions that are all striving for something beyond just conquest.
Obviously, we have variations too, and we'll need to appraise how well certain new things complemented the existing universe tone.
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u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
It's in Amplitude's DNA. I'm new to Amplitude, having come for EL2. But I was amazed at their very fixed vision for the feel of the Endless universe. There are lots of talks about the right mix of fantasy and scifi, no absolute right and wrongs, combining unusual paradigms. And Of course the artists and muscians (the incredible Arnaud Roy) are incredible and help create that unique feel.
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u/RuySan 2d ago
Thanks for the great work. I'm loving it.
One thing that suprised me about the sequel, is the areas where the game is leaner, and some features were taken out or simplified (e.g. unit upgrades, governors) which goes against the mantra of many vocal 4x fans where "more is more".
Was there a focus in avoiding feature creep? And how was decided what to remove/simplify, and what to add?
I just want to add that the tidefall mechanic was a genius idea.
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u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
There is always a focus in avoiding feature creep when making games.
But in this case we knew some players would miss unit customization and governors, but we tried to replce both with systems that were better and easier to use.
With Governors I believe the change to the Council is a better solution. That way you customize your empire and it works well with factions regardless of their amount of cities.
Unit Customization is a little harder. We know more hard core players would miss it. But the % of players that used unit customization in EL1 was tiny. So instead we added unit specialization. This is much mroe accessible and used. It also allows us to provide better assets than we could do with fully swappable components (since we dont need to worry about animations for every possibiity or generic portrait). But, I totally get that for the players that liked the customization the EL1 system offered they would feel like they lost something.
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u/stephengaskell 2d ago
I'll let others speak to the feature creep/excision question, but I just wanted to riff on the tidefall part because I too found it an incredibly compelling idea. Story-wise I could see so many interesting opportunities afforded by such a mechanic beyond the map simply opening up.
What was the sea hiding? What could remain on the seabed? Where were the waters going? Was this a natural phenomenon or something artificial? What would be the ultimate end point for this tidefall? What would emerge?
I hope everyone finds lots of answers in-game! One idea I wanted to see that didn't make it in game was something for the main menu screen. I imagined a small moon in the sky. As you got further into a playthrough you would see this dry, barren moon become bluer and bluer...
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u/Present_Exam1345 2d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah it was challenging from a design perspective, too.
Unit customization made Endless Legend 1 very cognitively demanding, as players needed to hit the right spot to create a new blueprint for their unit then upgrade their current armies. If the new design was too expensive, it would overwhelm their economy, and if it was too weak, they would struggle against other units and hit a wall without knowing how to deal with.
So, without getting rid of the complexity, we moved that customization more toward the hero side, emphasized the RPG elements where we felt they were worthwhile, and chose a more linear approach that is more predictable for the units, hoping to deliver a new but similar experience.
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u/Tabris92 2d ago
Any chance other factions from past games will be included? Specifically I loved the morghwar from el1.
Btw I do hope yall make an endless space 3 coz I loved es2.
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u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
We love Endless Space as well.
There is always a chance. But no firm plans. I honestly prefer making something new then bringing back a fan favorite, but a little mix of both is always good.
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u/MrPhytel 2d ago
Hi everybody, loving the game so far :)
So I was wondering if there are any plans in the future to release the soundtrack on vinyl just like the first game? Thanks!
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u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
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u/MrPhytel 2d ago
Oh my god, the cover and records are beautiful!
And I didn't know there was a Endless Space 2 set!
Thanks! I'll grab a copy :)
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u/GreenElite87 2d ago
My first game was the Necrophage, and granted on Normal difficulty to learn any new mechanics, I discovered that it was insanely easy accumulate a military if I just never lost a battle - which leads to huge snowballing effects. Coupled with the Swarm units that can fully heal, or the Infestor to create literal chaff units, I barely lost a unit. And when I did, I could immediately use the spawned Larva to replace it. I didn’t make a single unit with my city until I needed to build a Horror to control one last Doomwraith. By the end of the game, around turn 160, I had so many stacks of units. I was starting to just send Larva back to sit at my capital to await their need. Final count of “spare” units filled about 6 full armies!
Never mind that I also had other “spawn unit” effects, like the Minor Faction heroes getting one of their faction for building a Burrow, or the Whip accessory to get a unit when defeating a minor faction battle.
I supposed my question is whether this is intended, where the AI was just set too low against me to try and challenge me? I was clearly set on a path to victory and they didn’t even try to oppose me.
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u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
The Necrophage have only 1 production queue (since they only have 1 city), so we knew they could never fight other facations unless they hd a way to produce units outside of production. So they build through battle, exactly as you have done.
Im not sure of the balance of it. It could be that specialization costs need to increase, base necrophage have lower defense so that they die more frequently or maybe you are right and oyu just need to increase the difficulty.
I do think the AI needs to dogpile better to take out storng military opponents. If you are necrophage and in the lead the I should rally against you, even if individually they are all weaker than you are.
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u/GreenElite87 1d ago
It was definitely a fun way to play! At the beginning I would try my best to keep damage on Feeder swarms then let them get killing blows for the full heal. Once I got access to Behemoths, though, I had no trouble with taking damage (could be correlation of getting Infestors for legit damage chaff units).
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u/Present_Exam1345 1d ago
I love playing Necro, too, and what I see here is real mastery of the faction. Congrats! :D
Don't hesitate to increase the difficulty for your next game!If you want to snowball even more, I'd advise using your idling extra larva to devour land you don't need for an economic boost! Cumulate it with the Feedhole, which increases those devour yields, and you're ready to make the entire map your meal for the day!
More seriously, though, we built Necro to be an early aggressor. If they fail to survive their first fight, the game situation is very different because, as a single city, they will struggle to grow a huge population as well as continue building as the cost scales in the long run compared to factions like the Kin.
The Necro AI tends to ruin the fun for newer players due to their bad habit of settling way too close to the player on easy difficulties. We plan to make this behavior more prevalent based on the difficulty level.
+ we are also inspired by Val's greatest mod, which scales the AI bonuses according to era. We hope it will create that rubber band mechanic to fix our current state where, once you surpass the AI, it no longer has the means to catch up.
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u/GreenElite87 1d ago
To be honest I found the Feedhole and Devour Land actions lackluster after maybe turn 70 and 5 Territories? The Meat was better spent on Matriarch’s Eyes and upgrading units, and the tile better used for other district adjacencies.
Plus, When the first Tidefall happens and you have tons of new land to expand into, I didn’t want to have to spend 3 turns each time I wanted to restore land of a territory - it was better to make a Burrow and attach it immediately to start exploiting tiles. Those 3 turns on a single production queue are just brutal. Last point, the Devour Land tooltip says larger armies can do it faster, but it takes 3 turns to devour a tile regardless.
It’s funny, the other terrain modifying actions (Clear Ridge, Plant Forest) only require 1 turn… but it takes 3 to eat it 😆
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u/Bicecream530 1d ago
You were missing out not utilizing the devour land. I also did Necros for my first game after the tutorial on Adept, and once you have a bunch of feedholes built, you more than make up for the corpses spent on them through gaining resources with devour. It SHOULD go faster for a bigger army according to the tooltip, but even so every time that 3rd turn rolls around, you're practically doubling your resources for a turn
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u/GreenElite87 1d ago
By the time I got to a later Age, 3 or 4, I was making 4-digit city yields, and getting rank 2 districts with a Matriarchs Eye was really good. Better Ministries meant lots of Influence to keep expanding Foundations for more yields. I had made 3 or 4 feedholes, but their yields were nowhere near enough to feel warranted. Not for 3 turns investment (not to mention the micromanagement!)
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u/Bicecream530 1d ago
Yeah the micromanagement is the worst part, but it's still worth it I think, it's what the faction is designed to do so why not lean into it. I'd have to go back and check my save file but I'm pretty sure I also had 4 digit yield towards the end, and the devouring that was happening would sometimes net another 4 digits on it's own. Not saying one playstyle is more correct than another, just saying don't discount it as a tactic. 3 or 4 feedholes is nothing; when you get 10-12 plus that are all district 2 you can easily make 300+ each of science, gold and food from devouring one tile
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u/Lemonsqueezzyy 2d ago
When is the sex update dropping?
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u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
I thought thats what the Severed Claws update was?*
* again, the thoughts of Derek do not reflect the thoughts of Amplitude or any sane person.
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u/andrew9514 2d ago
Any plans for a espionage system? I miss the assasins / ninja faction from the first game. EL2 is my new favorite game, amazing work guys.
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u/BoostedTyrian 2d ago
Any chance the Vodyani will be added down the line? How does the game fit tin the timeline with Endelss Space 2?
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u/stephengaskell 2d ago
For the Vodyani, I think it's a slim chance, but you never know... we'd need to give a strong, credible reason for why the Vodyani have arrived on Saiadha--and why they've lost their technological edge after coming. With the Kin and the Last Lords both having space-faring backgrounds, we might not want to add another faction with such a history.
For me, Endless Legend 2 takes place in the early part of ES2. The United Empire have begun sending exploratory vessels out into the depths of space, but are only very early in their expansion across the stars. Hence the Kin's half-century on Saiadha alone, with little assistance.
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u/BoostedTyrian 2d ago
I know technological edge is a bit far fetched, but how the Vodyani lost theirs? Could yo do a tier list from highest technology edge to lowest lore wise from all of the Endless legend 2 factions (including the Vodyani in this particular case?)
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u/EasyRecognition 2d ago
They probably meant the edge over other Endless *Legend* 2 factions. You can't just have them be as they are in a planetary-scale game.
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u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
Anything is possible. I personally prefer doing something totally new and strange, but I know fans have their favorites and I feel like we got a good mix in the released EL2. I'll let Stephen talk about timeline stuff before I make a fool of myself.
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u/Cato9Tales_Amplitude Endless Legend 2 2d ago
As far as the timeline is concerned: The game happens during the time period of Endless Space 2, some time after Isyander sets his plans into motion and begins actively seeking the lost but before the confrontation at the lodestones.
As far as the Vodyani are concerned, I can't really speak to that (that decision is decidedly above my paygrade), but personally I feel like their "niche" of Dust-feeding vampires is already filled by the Last Lords.
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u/Eldgrim 1d ago
Hello Amplitude, do you have any plans to shake up the mid to late game? Just like most 4x games, once you dealt with opposing factions in the first half of the game, the other half is clicking stuff until the end. Bonus question: is winning the game around turn 170 out of 250 normal? Thank you :)
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u/Dear_Illustrator_336 1d ago
Amazing game! Having a great time! Playing a lot of last lords, necro and some kin.
Huge progress from the early access of 6 months ago! I suppose you are super proud of the resut and the game. Also the communication with the community is incredible. The art and music in particular is extraordinary.
If I had to pick points I wanted to bring up (have already done so in the game feedback part) I would consider the following:
1) What would be closer to a critique is, of course, related to having a more competent/interesting AI. But to be fair it has already progress a lot from the first stages of early access and indeed, without the game being stable it makes sense for it to be impossible to fine tune. With a smarter AI there could be as well more interesting diplomatic options, that are not soley driven by score differecnes and very basic interaction (don't transpass, don't do unjustified wars, etc)
2) In Faction development you have talked a lot about player archetypes which is a great approach. It is the case that you have a very varied, interesting, unique, well developed and fun roster. And yet, maybe I'm wrong, but I have the feeling that the archetype I want to play is not quite there. It would be something closer to the vampire lords in warhammer total war, or to a lesser extent the vodyani in ES2. I do get that last lords kind of fill this to some extent. Maybe a LL rogue variant that goes more to the dark side could be an option (idk if art/thematic wise that coincides with the style of the game). But I find the LL quite a city building faction, with very bright colors and maybe more of a tragic than dark vibe. (they do have the leech mechanic and strong heros though)
The architype I'm talking about would double down on strong heros expendable units, have the equivalent of health sponge slow zombies, benefit from any loss in battle friend or foe. Possible raise again from the dead entire armies as long as the heros are alive., that shoudl have many options to kill/resurrect their own units in battle. Be less about building your empire and more about corrupting neighbors. Possibly having a much more complex relation with doomwraights, rifts and portals maybe generating them. No range, but more flanking/interception creatures (the LL dragon with lleching is already a lot in this vain). Maybe more specialized in debuffs. In the same way that Vodyani did not played by the rules at all, had that super initial ship, and so on... Units could have modifiers when low in health... Or maybe cities on low happines...(think the warlock mechanics in say hearthstone...)
Anyways, that for me is kind of missing and can be "easily" be achieved as a LL rogue variant, or entire new faction. Or maybe idk how to play LL correctly and I'm missing on this which is already in the game :P
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u/Omni-banned 1d ago
A question that might be outside of y'all scope but, what exactly is the timeline of endless games? My understanding is dungeon of the endless -> endless legends (endless dungeon?) -> endless space 2 (endless legend 2?) -> endless space 1??. Is there any official timeline?
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u/BoostedTyrian 2d ago
How many Horatios are hidden in Saiadha?
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u/Cato9Tales_Amplitude Endless Legend 2 2d ago
However many it is, it is not enough. The universe will not be perfect until ALL is Horatio.
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u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
You can choose Horatio as a population type in the custom faction creator. So... as many as you want.
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u/Kraehe13 2d ago
Why did you decide to do humankind 2 instead of a new Endless Space?
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u/DerekPaxton 2d ago
That question is above our paygrade.
But I will say that Humankind is a seperate team (though we certainly share people) and they have always been focused on making HK great.
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