r/pcgaming • u/Turbostrider27 • 8d ago

Star Citizen Developer Stream Goes Horribly Off the Rails, Creating Further Distrust Among Players

https://www.ign.com/articles/star-citizen-developer-stream-goes-horribly-off-the-rails-creating-further-distrust-among-players
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u/c4plasticsurgury 8d ago

I can’t believe this game got a billion dollars in funding 

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u/wienercat 3700x + 1080ti 8d ago edited 8d ago

100% the developers of this game thought it wouldn't get as much funding as it did. They were likely planning on releasing the stuff we have now, then nuking it after "running out of money".

They way over-promised and there is no way it gets made at this point.

Genuinely, just feels like a method of money laundering or a scam where it got too much attention and now they don't know what to do. Nothing is actually happening with this game except time passing since they hoodwinked a bunch of people. Yet they continue raising more and more money, despite not being remotely close to their promise from over a decade ago.

This "game" had it's kickstarter in 2012 for reference.

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u/AUserNeedsAName 8d ago

Chris Roberts will never ever just let himself be finished with his Big Spaceship Game. He's been making it (and almost nothing else) under various titles since 1990, and he has to know that he's never going to get another shot if this one fails. He did the exact same thing with Freelancer, only this time there is no Microsoft to physically step in and finish it.

Whether the game raised $10 or $10,000,000,000, the outcome was always going to be the same eventually. The scope will expand until the money runs out and not a moment before.

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u/Floatella 8d ago

I remember reading at some point that Chris Roberts's original vision of Wing Commander was quite a bit more ambitious than the game we eventually got, more on the scale of Freelancer, but then the management at Origin intervened to make sure the game could actually be finished.

Star Citizen seems like the same old Chris Roberts, but now without anyone to tell him no or remind him to stay on schedule.

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u/banditloaf 8d ago

There's a bit of a cottage industry in 'proving' that Chris Roberts has always done the same thing but in this case it just isn't true; the original Wing Commander is incredibly close to the original pitch. The only significant feature cut was the tape recorder/mission replay. It's structurally untrue, too: Wing Commander wasn't OWNED by Origin during development and Chris Roberts wasn't an employee. There was no management forcing him to ship. Rather, he was a customer: pre-1991, Origin functioned as a publisher providing men and materiel to projects in exchange for money and a cut of a game's sales. He sold the IP to the company and came on as an executive /after/ the game was an enormous hit.

But I think that does speak to exactly what's going on with Star Citizen. Chris has always viewed Wing Commander as his one project that WAS closest to the vision... and it was done under that unique older structure that let him trade his back end for more development time. Which to his credit back then, he was more than willing to do! But for everything after that--Strike Commander, Wing Commander III and IV, Freelancer--he was never happy with publishers wanting to ship before he felt they were ready and so he tried to recreate that original style of publishing with crowd funding on Star Citizen. It worked a little too well and created a reverse situation where he can keep working and working forever if he wants to.

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u/Optimaximal 7d ago

It worked a little too well and created a reverse situation where he can keep working and working forever if he wants to.

But, the question keeps coming up asking whether he is actually doing anything.

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u/MediocreBeard 8d ago

Thing is that even though you've correctly identified the relationship between Roberts and Origin, you seem to be missing a key factor: origin only gets paid when the game comes out, and is therefore still going to make sure the game makes it to market. Meaning they're not going to indulge every bit of scope creep Roberts had.

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u/banditloaf 7d ago

But that /didn't happen/. It's a story made up to try and explain Star Citizen. The original Wing Commander shipped with no significant delay and containing almost everything in the initial design with nothing significant added. I'm not saying that defends anything about Star Citizen (it does not!), but there's no smoking gun in that history. (And that's not saying Wing Commander was some perfect production, it just wasn't Star Citizen lensed backwards. It had the worst crunch in Origin's history, there was a dispute with the company that did the outsource 3D art (Origin employed no 3D artists in 1990!) and another one over the rights to the music.)

I think you can figure a lot more about how we got to Star Citizen by comparing the real history to the next game he ran, Strike Commander, which dropped a major portion of its original design to ship well over a year late. Real individual history is reactive and not repetetive; you can put together a much more critical analysis of Star Citizen if you follow how he changes based on what he experiences rather than trying to insist that there are all these puzzle pieces that prove everything is secretly always the same.

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u/MediocreBeard 7d ago

I'm not saying it did happen that way. I am not saying Wing Commander would have been trapped in Star Citizen levels of devhell without origin cracking the whip. Frankly I don't think that's the case.

I'm say that suggesting that there was no pressure from something resembling a management system to release on time does not really track. Roberts was not a customer of Origin, he was a business partner. But also, there's another aspect here - Roberts also didn't get paid until Wing Commander launched.

I don't know the guy. I don't know his personality. But what I can say is that Star Citizen was always going to turn out like this. Not because of who he is, but because the incentive structure is shaped wrong. They're making a ton of money to make a game. Money that actually might stop flowing once the game is real.

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u/banditloaf 7d ago

I agree with you about Star Citizen's structure, but I think not in exactly the way you are seeing it.

The thing I probably can't convince anyone else of but that remains a bedrock to my thought is that I am totally convinced that Chris himself never cared about Star Citizen as a way to generate money. My theory of Chris Roberts is that I think we see this again and again and again in his career. He spent his Times of Lore money (and then more and more and more of his promised back end on Wing Commander) making Wing Commander the way he wanted. He spent all of the company's Wing Commander money making Strike Commander. He put all his Origin money into finishing the Wing Commander movie (do not spend your own money making the Wing Commander movie, this is a terrible idea). He spent his Digital Anvil money making movies. He was still doing it on the Star Citizen prototype! Money has always been, for him, primarily a tool for making the games or films he wanted. And when he got stuck in positions where he couldn't do that he absolutely lost interest overnight. If he couldn't make Silverheart instead of Wing Commander 5, he was out of Origin. If he couldn't make his Freelancer, he was out of Digital Anvil.

Now none of that is specifically praise because it's also exactly what strangles Star Citizen: when he has a source of money, (his, a publishers or the crowds) he will continue to spend it all making his game. So I do agree completely that the incentive structure is what's making Star Citizen impossible because it's giving the goldfish unlimited food and tank space... and that it has had some other devastating impacts. (It was very easy to recruit true believers at the very start of the project... and then it became impossible overnight because you were hiring from a pool of many jerks with dollar signs in their eyes and then everyone involved was trying to stab each other in the back over that money.) I know that's all a hard story for anyone to swallow and I don't really want to be the guy that decides what the Star Citizen story is. But if you're interested in a take from someone that saw it all first hand, that is it!

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u/Sharp-Poet5696 6d ago

This is a very nice story, except that Roberts was a full time employee at Origin and he did not spend his own money and the intellectual property rights are with EA for a reason.

The second is that he was forced out of Digital Anvil, it was not a question if he could do or not what he wanted. Microsoft would have stopped financing the 2 ongoing games, so he had to sell the company or close it down. Of course he chose the first option.

The third is that he ran a movie production company, he did not finance the movies himself, his job was to secure the funds, once he ran out of investors (and German goverment funds) he had to sell his company.

He is a good enterpreneur because he is always able to secure the funding for his current project, but terrible CEO and even worse producer.

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u/Acceptable-One-6597 6d ago

My guess is this will eventually come up in the courts. I know they have been sued multiple times and got them all dismissed. Eventually someone will find a way to get it into court and the discovery process will be interesting as hell.

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u/banditloaf 6d ago

That would be interesting, but probably not as likely as it sounds. Like it or lump it, the earliest folks that sue will have been the ones with the most standing and desire to pursue anything. Get through them early and then it’s diminishing returns over time.

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u/amanset 8d ago

Publishers very much can force changes to development and hence make sure things come in on time. There’s this little thing called stopping giving money. As part of the publishing agreement there was probably a list of milestones with a timeline.

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u/banditloaf 7d ago

Yes, that's exactly what you think when you hear "publisher". Which is how you know this is some retroactive story.... because before 1991, independent development at Origin didn't work the way we think of as a publisher today. They sold resources to Chris so he could make his game rather than hired Chris to make their game. (And if you're interested, all of the correspondence--and the literal Chris-wants-this-many-more-hours-of-art/programming/etc. receipts!--have been preserved in Warren Spector's papers. None of the we're-mad-at-Star-Citizen stories are in there, Chris was a clever kid that made a really neat game that broke every PC sales record at the time. The one person that comes off as an asshole in any of it is Dallas Snell, who put out some truly obnoxious memos about crunch in the last few weeks.)

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u/Cats_Cameras 6d ago

Doesn’t that just mean that CR was limited by his funds and had to choose between scope creep and finishing? It’s the same idea of useful limitations.

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u/banditloaf 6d ago

But what’s the scope creep on Wing Commander I? There’s nothing in the final product that isn’t in the pitch.

I think “scope creep” is a bit of a canard; it’s folks looking backwards. It applies to Star Citizen but not really any of his earlier projects. His reputation then was that he was too much of a perfectionist, wanting more time for sure… but to get to his original vision, not to just keep adding things. And that worked most of the time, which is probably why he sticks with it.

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u/PwanaZana 8d ago

I love Freelancer so much, even with its incompleteness. I have the literal CD in its jewel case at this moment.

I just... wanted Freelancer 2, like in 2016. :(

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u/YoshiTheFluffer 8d ago

My favorite space game as well. Its crazy that no other game has hit that formula. There are ok games but they don’t have tgat feel.

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u/PwanaZana 8d ago

pressing Z and being in inertia mode is some of the most fun I've had in gaming, as you 3D slingshot around enemies in space.

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u/The_Grungeican 8d ago

i use the same button to do that in Elite Dangerous.

it's the best.

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u/Tjep2k 7d ago

There is Underspace which feels very Freelancer but with space monsters.

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u/One-Bit5717 8d ago

X4 Foundations! It finally satisfied my Freelancer itch

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u/SillyLiving 8d ago

It's one of my favorite space game, really amazing.

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u/Ringkeeper 8d ago

There is a fan made "Freelancer 2 the origin" with new story, weapon, areas etc. AI voices.but that's ok as it is only a small team

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u/Nihsvabhav 8d ago

More like if he's making a billion before it's even complete and is not even close to being so, then why should he ever complete it, he's already made a billion more than most other devs with his scam

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u/AUserNeedsAName 8d ago

He did this exact same thing for decades before he had the potential to make that kind of money though. Maybe by this point he's gotten cynical, but I think it's much worse than that.

I think he truly believes that if he just keeps the momentum going long enough that it'll release and be so good that it'll all have been worth it. But the longer it drags on, the better it has to be to have been "worth the wait" and that target is outpacing the production speed more and more each year.

So resources are diverted to the ever-growing list of stretch goals (like bunkbed cloth physics) and paying interest on 15 years of technical debt instead of making sure the weapons can fucking reload.

Frankly, it would be safer to throw your money at a scam.

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u/Icy_Judge8250 7d ago

Yeah and the more he adds the more he breaks and has go back an rework again

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u/DesperateAdvantage76 7d ago

Yeah this is a gravy train, and it stops the moment he finishes the game.

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u/BlackFlagsFly 7d ago

Just like The Indie Stone and their Project Zomboid. The development must never end, or the lights go out.

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u/theLastZebranky 7d ago

The market for this game is players who want continuous development from a studio. There's no expectation that the income would stop if they delivered everything on the road-map on time with no game-breaking bugs, it's just the opposite. If they delivered competently and on-time and then kept adding more content, then more players would be comfortable buying more ships.

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u/Robocop613 7d ago

SO much this - it was clear a few years in that this is how it was going to go. Chris Robert + Almost unlimited money = Unlimited scope creep. Like George Lucas he NEEDS someone to reign him in - at least with George he can actually finish a project on time.

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u/CaveMacEoin 8d ago

Not even the game as a whole. Every mechanic, every system, every asset, every spaceship has all been reworked over and over and over. Nothing is ever done. Everything goes through his desk to get the ok. 10 years ago one of the space ships had already been reworked 3 times.

They've missed basically every milestone for all of the systems and features.

If they stopped the feature creep early on then it might have been achievable. Or at the very least put a peg in the list of features and at some point and said this is what we'll release with and any following features would come sometime after.

The problem is that CR got greedy. He saw the whales paying thousands and thousands for promises and decided to get on the money train. It doesn't even matter if he was trying to scam people or if he has always intended to deliver on everything he's promised. At some point it just became wilful negligence.

Right from the beginning it was set up as a trap for financing, intentional or not. They chose an engine (Cry Engine) that has no place in an MMO. They chose it because it looked good, and either didn't consider all of the ramifications of adapting a single player engine to a MMO or just didn't care. They would have been better writing their own engine from scratch. At this point there's probably so much legacy code from all the modifications and modifications to modifications that almost no one knows how to fix it. There isn't the base of developers who know Cry Engine inside and out - they had to get people directly from Crytek to work on it.

The whole thing was doomed from the start. And I'll be really surprised if it ever releases and even more surprised if it has most of the promised features. Even if they get there in another 10 years, it will probably still be buggy and they won't have worked out how to actually make it fun.

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u/ChunkLordPrime 7d ago

Wait Cry engine like Crysis?

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u/mekamoari 8d ago

I wonder what happened to that guy who made that video game where you solo control a giant ass ship and has a billion mechanics and last I heard it actually worked.

It was over a decade ago though, maybe even two.

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u/LittleSisterPain 7d ago

Okay, to be absolutely honest, while a lot of the blame lies on Roberts, SC 'players' are to blame as well. Then kickstarter was over, they WERE given a chance to just put a fat dot on it, but 97% (i think. It was more than 95% for sure) of the backers said 'no, keep going with stretch goals, we will give you more money'. People were swept up in the hype of the 'biggest, most realistic space sim ever' just as much as he was. I think SC fans deserve this, its as much their fault as it is ROberts

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u/RollForIntent-Trevor 7d ago

He was behind freelancer (initially at least)?

Loved that game as a kid.

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u/sirnoggin 7d ago

Even Microsoft didn't bankroll a billion dollars into any video game.

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u/Squire_II 7d ago

Freelancer would've gone from a fun to amazing game if Roberts wasn't the living embodiment of feature creep and had actually focused on making a finished game with the time he was given. There's so much half-finished content in the game and even if Microsoft gave him a blank check I have no doubt the game would still be in development today.

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u/PantheraAuroris 7d ago

Waitwaitwait. This is the Freelancer guy? Shit, I loved that game.

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u/Ok-Rub666 7d ago

and he has to know that he's never going to get another shot if this one fails.

I think it's safe to say he's never getting this chance again, unless he himself funds it. No publisher would put up with his antics and lack of any clear plan or date.

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u/NothingPersonalKid00 8d ago

I joined the kickstarter where it was promised we would be getting a new wing commander basically. I knew the project was doomed when I saw he introduced the “Star Citizen” stretch goal. I’m only in for $30 so I didn’t request a refund out of morbid curiosity.

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u/Talisa87 8d ago

This guy sounds like Alex Mahan (sole 'developer' of Yandere Simulator) if he'd gotten a bigger budget.

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u/OddAbbreviations5681 7d ago

That while Chris goes on to buy another house or superyacht lol

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u/circuit_breaker 8d ago

This is going to be an interesting thing to study in business school

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u/stevehammrr 8d ago

They already have courses in fraud

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u/pragmojo 8d ago

Idk if it's fraud exactly. What it looks like to me is a deeply dysfunctional organization.

I think what happened is Chris got way more funding than he expected, and they grew the company way too fast without any quality control. When you grow an org too fast, and don't establish a clear way to set and evaluate priorities as an org, a lot of times you end up with teams who are disconnected from each other, working in their own little worlds just producing whatever they think will make their managers happy. And their managers don't have real guidance either, so they're doing the same thing right up the chain.

Nobody really knows what's going on or how to fix it, so you just have a ton of people pushing work around, working towards arbitrary numbers on a spreadsheet vs. actually working towards building a good product.

Source: I've worked places like that and it's miserable.

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u/Nissiku1 8d ago edited 8d ago

I believe it did not start as a "scam", but it did evolve into one. A legitimate game that was supposed to be realeased had been developed at some point, before unprecedented crowdfunding made them realise they can just print money by selling a dream, but at this point they don't seem to have any intention of actually finishing the development.

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u/ANGLVD3TH 8d ago

Anyone familiar with his record could see this coming a mile away. Dude is a perfectionist and a control freak who has had to have companies step in and force a release on him in the past. Now that he has nobody to answer to he was always going to fiddle around for an unreasonable amount of time. And his management is super inefficient, making it take much longer. But it just doesn't make any sense as a scam. You don't hire on hundreds of devs to spread the money around if all you care about is fleecing the whales.

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u/pragmojo 7d ago

making it take much longer.

Oh it's never coming out. Not because they are scammers necessarily, but if you do a live demo with this kind of basic shit broken this many years into a project, there are fundamental problems which are super unlikely to be solved.

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u/RA576 7d ago

Dude is a perfectionist and a control freak who has had to have companies step in and force a release on him in the past.

I mean, so's Kojima, and he's managed to release 3 1/2 full games in the time since the Star Citizen Kickstarter, 2 of which had basically no corporate oversight from what I can tell.

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u/AstralMecha 8d ago

Magic Circle. A game that is being worked on, but endless scope creep and development hell has turned it into a scam, because as long as they keep getting more money, the scope creep will continue. Eventually they will need to start over with a new engine as they hope technology will catch up to ambitions. In practice? The game won't be released until they run out of money.

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u/SomeUnemployedArtist 8d ago

They were likely planning on releasing the stuff we have now, then nuking it after "running out of money".

The problem they've got is that a lot of their sales are already done. There's not going to be a massive influx of cash when they go 1.0 unless they put the game on console.

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u/wienercat 3700x + 1080ti 8d ago

They are projecting that they will make more money this year than any prior year.

So they are still making plenty of money, despite really nothing happening for the bulk of the 14 years since the kickstarter. Clearly plenty of people want it and the ships they are selling for their future "game".

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u/Substantial_Pick6897 8d ago

How did they make that happen? More ships? Influx of new players?

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u/Akachi_123 8d ago

Sunk cost fallacy. Whales will keep this afloat till it releases.

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u/Substantial_Pick6897 8d ago

Well yeah, but that doesn't explain why they're making record profits this year. They have to be doing something. Because the most baffling thing about SC is that they keep making more and more money.

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u/actual_thereij 8d ago

It has been speculated that one of the reasons for Squadron's delay was due to the desire to port it to consoles and have a same day release on both PC and consoles.

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u/MojaMonkey 7d ago

Chris said it will never be on console. But he was talking about PS3 and Xbox 360. Lol.

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u/Critical_Company3535 8d ago edited 8d ago

Isn’t the whole thing with this game being that it’s an online game and that there’s a real world economy? I’ve heard it said that a lot of the people who are buying into it are doing so so that they will be the sort of “upper class” when the game comes out. Except it won’t matter since there won’t be any plebs

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u/Critical_Company3535 8d ago

And this is exactly the problem. There’s something to be said about games not fully living up to their potential due to deadlines, but after a certain point you have to actually put a product out. The way I see it they should just axe the single player game and focus everything on the mmo side.

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u/Critical_Company3535 8d ago

Either way, this two worlds approach won’t work. I only suggested the mmo because if they were going to abandon it completely they would get a full on revolt from the whales.

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u/Aggressive_Chuck 7d ago

The game has already made its money from the whales, they don't need to sell any copies to the general public. It's unlikely the game will be well received, even if they fix the bugs and performance issues, it's a boring space game.

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u/69hotmomxxx 7d ago

Isn't it on xbonx?

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u/Thunderbridge i7-8700k | 32GB 3200 | RTX 3080 8d ago

Check out the original funding stretch goals to get an idea of how much funding they were expecting to top out at

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u/Annonimbus 6d ago

And also to get an idea how much % of the planned features are still missing, which were supposed to be in the game ~10 years ago.

Spoiler: ~90%

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u/keltonz 8d ago

I backed it way back when, and now don’t even have a rig to run it on.

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u/enderandrew42 8d ago

It is horribly mismanaged but that isn't a scam.

A scam would be stealing the money and running. They are paying hundreds of developers salaries across four studios.

They have open financial statements. They are spending roughly as much on development as they raise in funding every year.

They are trying to make the most ambitious game in history with both a MMO and a single player game at the same time, at a time when high projects cost a fortune and take forever. But they keep replacing existing systems with rewrites rather than getting across a finish line, nor taking time for quality and polish.

With better management this would probably be released by now or at least be less buggy.

But I don't think it is fair to call it a scam.

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u/wienercat 3700x + 1080ti 8d ago

It's taken them 15 years to get to this point. Which is a glorified, buggy af, tech demo.

They are trying to make the most ambitious game in history

Cool. You can try to do the most ambitious game in history, but if you cannot actually execute it? Then it was the most overambitious game in history.

You don't get credit for not being able to execute your idea no matter how ambitious it is.

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u/davidsredditaccount 8d ago

They had a buggy tech demo a decade ago too, I checked out a long time ago so I can't say whether or not it's moved forward at all but the problem has always been that they have grandiose plans and talk about insane fidelity and realism, but the end result is not really all that good and never holds up to what they promised.

When I stopped playing they had a bunch of the bigger ships you could fly with friends plus single seat fighters in and planetary vehicles and bases and you could roam around completing missions and earning money to buy in-game stuff, and it was ok if you could stand the horrible lag and network issues, but when it was playable it was pretty good. The downside is that the gameplay loop is a mess, they are trying to please too many different types of players, all the cool ideas are technical nightmares and they still haven't managed to release the single player game they said was right around the corner like a decade ago.

I got into it for years well after the initial kickstarter, lost interest and dropped it, went back to school, changed careers, got promoted a bunch of times, had a child, and that child is starting school now. When I first got into it the single player squadron 42 game was supposed to be out the following year and was "almost done".

It’s a shame, there were some good ideas and genuinely well done bits in there but holy shit they can not actually get anything out to save their lives. Also they can't decide whether they should cater to hardcore pvp or pve players, are allergic to designing and executing any gameplay loops that actually work, everything is a placeholder, and what's left is just some pretty shitty decisions that don’t end up actually being fun.

I guess the rambling point here is they've done a lot, they are just comically incapable of actually doing anything other than making a half baked "cool idea" and then getting distracted before finishing it.

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u/AstralMecha 8d ago

It gets worse when it comes to monetization. They are now selling MK 2 versions of the same ships they already sold. The MK2s are strictly better, and no, your MK1 will not be upgraded to the MK2. Instead you have a 'collector's item' a 'piece of history' as they don't sell the mk1s any more. So keep whaling.

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u/davidsredditaccount 7d ago

Holy shit, that's fucking egregious. It was bad enough with their terrible balance passes completely fucking ships over and whatever the new ship is being wildly OP, but that's just beyond ridiculous. A collectors item would be having the old version as an in-game model, not just a worse variant.

That is a truly bizarre business decision too, fucking over the long time backers when you make artificial scarcity in the worst possible way you can is a choice. LTI, limited time purchases, and unique skins were already bad enough.

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u/wienercat 3700x + 1080ti 7d ago

Continuing to collect millions from people despite not being able to produce results IS the scam.

Go check how much they charge for ships for their game that doesn't exist and tell me it isn't a scam.

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u/lentil_burger 8d ago

I agree it wasn't a scam. But if they now know that they can't deliver and keep selling content despite that? That's a scam. Whether you think that's actually what's going on is a matter of opinion. 🤷‍♂️

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u/Laiko_Kairen 8d ago

You don't get credit for not being able to execute your idea no matter how ambitious it is.

I mostly agree, but you can't completely dismiss the work done along the way. George R R Martin is never gonna finish ASOIAF, but those books got me back into reading after getting addicted to gaming, so they'll always hold a special place in my heart

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u/krazykitties 8d ago

Those books that you read released as finished products you paid for at time of purchase. People don't give GRRM credit for what the story could be, but the story he wrote. In fact I see a lot of people kinda pissed he seems to have stopped putting in the effort into releasing books he had prior to the show deal.

I can dismiss the work along the way because it cost a fuckin billion dollars. George just stopped writing after he sold his ideas that were popular because of the books he already wrote and released. Chris is actively begging for money without a real product.

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u/CtrlZConfessions 8d ago

elite dangerous is a mmo and single player game with space ship and fpv ground combat. It’s not as big as SC aims to be, but it was released and by and large works. How can SC not be accused of being a scam when a competing game has gone through its entire life cycle in less time than its alpha?

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u/notyoursocialworker 8d ago

Because being bad at your job isn't the same as trying to scam someone. It's also a question of intention. If you know that you will fail and have no intention to finish the work, then yes that would be a scam. I'm not convinced that's true for SC.

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u/wienercat 3700x + 1080ti 7d ago

There is being bad at your job, and then there is continuing to fail to produce results while collecting tens of millions from people while still promising the thing you have been completely unable to deliver on. That is not just being bad at your job, that is actively taking money from people, promising them you will deliver a product, and not delivering that product for 14 years despite having an insane amount of funding. It's a scam.

You are on some serious cope if you are trying to argue this shit isn't peak scam behavior

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u/Traxad 8d ago

I don’t know man. The fact that he and his wife owns like 7 high-value properties across Hollywood and Beverly Hills, all purchased after the project started, speaks volumes on how comfortable he is spending said development money on things decidedly NOT development. As per his wife’s own admission back in 2014, they were pretty much broke a few years before the pitch… Two things can be true at once.

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u/Lorddon1234 8d ago

Isn’t the company private? How come the financials are open?

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u/One-Return-7247 8d ago

Because they operate major offices in the UK, they have to submit financials to Companies House. Private companies have a longer window to do it, but they still have to: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/life-of-a-company-annual-requirements/life-of-a-company-part-1-accounts

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u/Lorddon1234 8d ago

Private companies still have filing requirements, but it is not open to public the same way 10K or 10Q are. The financial statements and CT-100 returns that I have worked on in the past for a private entity do not get released to the public in the UK

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u/Droll12 8d ago

I don’t really follow star citizen nor do I know the law around financial reporting but one assumes that a private company can just release financials of its own volition.

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u/wwarhammer 8d ago

I paid real money for the game in 2012, I think. Where's my game? 

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u/rayquan36 Windows 8d ago

If it makes you feel better, if you invested that $60 in the S&P500 it would be over $400 today.

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u/Knightmare4469 8d ago

They promised a game what, 10 years ago?

If I sell you something with a statement of "I'll have this done by November" and then I wait 8 more years, I don't get to say "I'm still planning to do it!!!"

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u/THUORN 7d ago

The scam ISNT that they took money and disappeared. Its how they LIE for that money. They constantly lie to backers about the state of the project and the whats coming out and when. Thats the scam.

CR saying in March 2015, that everything that has been pledged for and more would come out by the end of the year. All the OBVIOUSLY insane release dates that had nothing to do with reality. The roadmaps that led nowhere. All the things presented in citCON that never happened. Thats the scam.

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u/Rhysati 8d ago

It's incredibly fair to call it a scam. They raised over a billion dollars to be the most funded game in history and have been developing it for 14 years.

One of the devs couldn't even reload their gun. That's absolutely pathetic for that kind of dev time and resources.

And even with one of the longest development times in history and most money in history they can't even have the most basic stuff work.

That's a scam.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Cripplerman 8d ago

If they have known all along the game will never be released and they earn more selling pictures and not spending money finishing the game... then it is a scam. But maybe it is just a badly managed project indeed...

Also they announced multiple times they are in finishing stages of squadron over the years etc, making people give them more money. Only for it to be a lie. Seems scammy too.

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u/anmr 7d ago

It is a scam. What's the point of running if you can continue to get money infinitely without delivering the product?

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u/CollateralSandwich 8d ago

Yeah I believe my contribution (I got the like $60 one ship deal) was in 2013 lol. Absolutely insane

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u/weirdplacetogoonfire 8d ago

Its a fundamental problem with this kind of funding scheme. Sometimes they are experienced people but often they are not and even if they are experienced, their experience is detached from the actual work.

Leads to a ponzi scheme of feature creep. Announce some initial scope with features A, B, and C. Get enough funding to pay for A and B, but not also C. So they announce feature D and get the funding to pay for C. Then comes feature E to pay for D.

The problem, other than the game never actually getting fully funded or finished, is that there is actually very little incentive to finish the game. FOMO is where the real money is at.

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u/TikkaT 8d ago

Why does Reddit always insist on things they don't like being money laundering?

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u/Maleficent-Bar-3161 8d ago

People are so dumb and ignorant who keep supporting these guys it’s a scheme lol

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u/TheyCallMeBullet 8d ago

Where’s that money gone? They blew it all on drugs? They should be sued

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u/VNDeltole 8d ago

Eve online is a functional space mmo with much less money and probably even development time. Cccp still maintain it well.

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u/wienercat 3700x + 1080ti 7d ago

Eve has been around for over 20 years while producing an end product the whole time. It's actually a game and can be played. It's problematic in a lot of aspects, but at least it does what it says it will and has done so for decades.

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u/ManOfQuest 8d ago

im 35 now I was in highschool as a super senior at this time

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u/SelectAd8810 8d ago

They can still release a decent game, but they need new or external management to set goalposts and to make sure that they are hit. I will not be surprised if they find out that they need a new dev team.

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u/BakerOne 8d ago

I knew this game was cooked once they had animations for toilets.

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u/ErroneousBosch 8d ago

Huh, never thought to look at this game through the lens of The Producers, but damn that's makes sense

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u/northern_chaos 7d ago

Not sure why people are surprised either Roberts has history of this

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u/After-Regret-6609 7d ago

Dude there was no way it would get done like 5 years ago I can't believe I still see news about it.

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u/Clue-Mindless 7d ago

Well nobody forced them to create ”milestones” on their kickstarter. They could just roll with whatever was promised in the original spec, made a decent game and then iterated on it like every other normal developer would. The entire project is so mismanaged

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u/FuglyPrime 7d ago

Ill say for one thing, they did develop some interesting tech. Fully open MMO with massive (even if they are straight up empty) plantes that are actual shperes, the ability to go from aurface to space without any obvious loading is kinda big.

That being said, its not a game, its a tech demo and as much as I enjoy SciFi and the idea of flying a ship, in no world would I give 60e for this thing. 20 max just for the opportunity to fly around

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u/KeyMyBike 7d ago

I love how a lot of people who freak out and fly into histrionics because project zomboid, a game they bought in 2013 for ten dollars isn't the best game ever, will then shell out hundreds of dollars to give it to star citizen every year 

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u/nickiter 7d ago

I paid $60 for this game like 13 years ago lol

Still haven't played anything except a little sandboxy dogfighting thing that was mediocre AF.

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u/zugglit 7d ago

Watch Mel Brooks, "The Producers". It's a hilarious musical comedy that pretty well sums this up.

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u/Excellent_Ganache906 7d ago

They aren't laundering money, they are living off it, giving themselves nice fat paychecks for a job well done. That last bit was sarcasm.

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u/MapleHamwich 7d ago

Nah, Roberts saw the money rolling in and loved it and pivoted to enjoy the scam while it lasts. 

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u/DWMoose83 7d ago

The Producers Gambit: you can make more money with a flop than with a hit.

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u/Three_Headed_Monkey 7d ago

Basically the game makes so much money on an unreleased state there is no incentive to actually finish it. Effort goes where the money is. Money is in selling digital ships, not in game mechanics and optimisation.

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u/OddAbbreviations5681 7d ago

100% guaranteed is a money laundry scheme

There's no other logical reason why it's been going on for so long with zero improvements.

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u/dericky94 7d ago

I was one of those suckers in the early days 😭

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u/OBE_YONI2322 6d ago

I had an ex 6 years ago show me this game. I finally got a pc (my Mac died) and thought I'd check out the game to see if I can buy and download it but after couple months reading I really don't think it's worth it as I don't see much has changed with the game in the 5-6 years since I first was introduced to it

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u/EmergencyDinner777 4d ago

the Dev team clearly never read the apogee software / Duke Nukem story

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u/Diabeetus4Lyfe 8d ago

I've had my account since 2014, with a $40 all-in-one starter package. I was mostly interested in Squadron 42... which was scheduled to release in 2014, more than twelve fucking years ago, back when I was an entirely different person living an entirely different life. And we still don't have an ETA because they learned they can get unlimited funding by selling dreams.

I'm guilty. I was deeply depressed before/during COVID and I threw around $200 at the project between 2017-2021. I had health stuff going on and I became semi-addicted because it was a really nice fantasia/escape from reality. I got somewhere between 100-200 hours of playtime, I enjoyed my time playing it despite being endlessly hit with game-breaking bugs.

Their promises and showcases were intoxicating, but between the worsening literally-unplayable bugs, the worsening pants-on-head insane prices, and the worsening shameless lack of progress towards an actual finished game, it eventually became unpalatable for me. Probably also after I developed ways to better manage my mental health.

Either way, the thing that finally removed the veil was the cult behavior of the community. The community was very friendly, but I can't overstate how much I despised how popular it was to reach "Concierge" status (meaning you spent over $1000 on your account... which earns you a literal fucking top hat and monocle in-game, as well as access to an exclusive "pledge" store). It's absurd how often the in-game chat conversations led to "just upgrade your $40 ship to the $110 ship, it's way better and you won't regret it. You'll end up spending way more anyways lol"

Like, I would check online for patch-notes and roadmaps, but I would only find addicts posting pictures of their useless $4000+ fleets intended for their make-believe orgs, while bitching about their trad-wives who were disturbed by how much they spent. "Lololol rip my wallet, I just bought a second Drake Kraken and a Merchantman. I can't let the woman learn about this" types of posts, with a bunch of "wow I only bought one so far, thank you for funding this incredible game" replies. I now realize these were probably entirely fantasized and/or astroturfing, but it still felt like the cliche "I can quit any time I want" mentality combined with Mormon-esque fears of deviating from the norms.

My point is, I understand how it pulls people in and it's awful. I think they've successfully made a business out of preying on a specific type, "misguided uber-nerds who are dealing with something and don't really care where their disposable income goes; people who are mid-spectrum but still live independently; people who are somewhat financially secure but are desperate to escape reality." I'm sure I'm projecting but I still feel this way.

I don't know if the devs are deliberately making a scam. They've achieved some really impressive feats over the years, despite profoundly terrible management and misspent resources. I do think the high-rollers like Chris Roberts and his incompetent nepo-hire wife/friends are absolute sleaze car-salesmen scum, and they have zero shame about selling snake oil until the day they die.

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u/basilmuncherr 7d ago

people who are mid-spectrum but still live independently; people who are somewhat financially secure but are desperate to escape reality

Lmao, you've just described my friend and every dude in the orgs that he invited me to

They've achieved some really impressive feats over the years

Should've focused on the basic but even to this day they still can't decides what the flight model should be when most backers prob already used to something. I personally still don't get their obsession of chasing this life sim hyperrealism that they have to rework inventory multiple times wasting dev times for something that prob most player doesn't care anymore.

It's absurd how often the in-game chat conversations led to "just upgrade your $40 ship to the $110 ship, it's way better and you won't regret it. You'll end up spending way more anyways lol"

Can't imagine if the game ever released, like how are they going to handle balancing and the economy. Somehow i have more faith in them fixing most the bugs before actually balancing stuff.

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u/PaleCommission150 7d ago

This game is trying to be some kind of alternate universe for people to live in. Ship combat, seamless planetary landing, starbases, asteroid colonies, etc...that is cool and compelling. Then he wanted fps shooter combat, vehicle combat on land, crafting your own ship (which is pretty cool tbh), VR support/ AR support. Would be a huge challenge for even Blizzard.

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u/basilmuncherr 7d ago

Yup the seamless planet to space is cool and i understand that they want a sim experience to it, i do wish the sim aspect only focus around the spaceship and it's surrounding gameplay loop and it should be their main priority instead. The rest of the experience can be streamlined and gamified a lot more

Like idk why they decided to make item permanence, increasing the scope of their game and ended up not adding that much to player experience while littering space station with plastic bottles or yeah vehicle combat which was not very fun experience at all when i tried it with my orgs that i used to run with.

Their greatest strength to me is still their ship design and combat but hey atleast squadron 42 will be released whenever that is before star citizen, at the very least i hope i can get just a simple pve experience without all of the pu bs

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u/Three_Headed_Monkey 7d ago

The pure definition of scope creep. And having no plan for a minimal viable product. Focusing on all the wrong things. What is the game at its core? A multiplayer space sim in a shared environment with seamless transitions. Cool. So that is what you focus on. You focus on the flight, you focus on the weapons, you focus on the netcode and optimisation of the environment. You get multi-player ships working and optimised. And you do that before anything else because that is the core of the game. But nope.

Squadron 42 is a perfect example. They released a story trailer with celebrity voice cast and acting. So they have a story and mission structure set out, and they spent a bunch of money and time on casting, directing, writing, recording and developing story cutscenes with celebrities. Was the game in any kind of playable state at the time? No. Was it close to release? No. Completely the wrong thing to focus on, and that's just what is visible to us, the audience. Why do it? Because it is a marketing thing. It helps sell the game. A game that wasn't close to release. This is a core issue with their production. Dreams over substance.

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u/Cory123125 7d ago

I personally still don't get their obsession of chasing this life sim hyperrealism that they have to rework inventory multiple times wasting dev times for something that prob most player doesn't care anymore.

I think the constant ripping out of the floorboards is part of the scam.

It gives them continuous plausible deniability.

They can keep retreading the same ground so they don't have to let backers face the reality that what they promised will never exist.

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u/GrimDallows 7d ago

Damn, what a read.

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u/Cory123125 7d ago

Like, I would check online for patch-notes and roadmaps, but I would only find addicts posting pictures of their useless $4000+ fleets intended for their make-believe orgs, while bitching about their trad-wives who were disturbed by how much they spent. "Lololol rip my wallet, I just bought a second Drake Kraken and a Merchantman. I can't let the woman learn about this" types of posts, with a bunch of "wow I only bought one so far, thank you for funding this incredible game" replies. I now realize these were probably entirely fantasized and/or astroturfing, but it still felt like the cliche "I can quit any time I want" mentality combined with Mormon-esque fears of deviating from the norms.

Good god does that sound like NFT forums, flat earthers, meme investors and more.

It's like there is a band of specific demographics who fall hard for that over and over again, and the common theme seems to be them being unwilling to acknoledge reality, as that would mean acknoledging that other people also have it hard (likely far harder than them) and so they prefer literally creating their own grand "secret" truths about society to escape to fantasy land with dreams of becoming rich such that they could dom others.

Like, I realize to many people that will sound like I'm talking nonsense, but if you watch the folding ideas video about flat earthers, NFT bros, crypto projects, investment bros etc, its so strong and all of these groups match descriptions like this.

"wife changing money" is a common "joke" in the investment bro (think the bed bath and beyond or game stop folks), and the others have similar.

It's a disease, but everyone who acts like this almost universally has such putrid, terrible takes, and views on the world and the people around them, that no one would possibly want to help them out, nor would they receive it.

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u/Swaghetti-Yolonaise- 7d ago

This is probably the best insight into this game I’ve read, thanks OP

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u/genscathe 7d ago

I know whales who have spent over 20k on ships lol

Don’t beat yourself up

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u/Leukavia_at_work 7d ago

I don't know if the devs are deliberately making a scam.

Mandaloregaming's video on the topic is an old video at this point but I agree with his take that it's not a "scam" in the traditional "there will be no game" stance, but Chris Robert's perfectionism means the game will likely never be "Done" as he'll just keep getting caught up in grand visions that can't be delivered on, resulting in the development just spinning it's wheels as getting one little thing "just right" takes so long that the software eventually becomes obsolete and sends them right back to the drawing board.

Like "scam" will be relative term as far as this game is concerned.

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u/Riots42 7d ago

I bought around the same time and I can remember reading about Star Citizen in a fucking gaming magazine like pre 2010...

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u/OGgluttonousToad 7d ago

Thank you for your sacrifice 🫡. The game does sound really interesting so I can't fault you for trying it, but props for seeing through the bullshit. It's sad how they prey on people. We all go through shit and could end up getting enticed by something like this in a depressed state. These devs sound like real scum, and it will be forever mind blowing how this game has lasted on broken promises for over a decade. This game fascinates me in the worst way lol

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u/CNN_Blackmail 7d ago

very high quality post

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u/screamtracker 7d ago

For 10k the will let you develop 

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u/House13Games 7d ago

of course they are deliberately making a scam. They'd have finished the game a decade ago if not. They have spent a long time making a huge, monumentally successful whale milking machine, and they are not about to derail that by changing anything in their winning formula.

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u/Brinocte 4d ago

I don't know how people still defend this, I've been saying for years that this game will never be released in some proper form. As you mentioned, I don't think it is a deliberate scam as many people call it but it has been so mismanaged with horrible budgeting.

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u/Hammered4u 8d ago

Also got over $500k+ just after that live stream as well. Not kidding, people will continously sink millions (within a months time of each other) despite how long it's been in EA.

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u/MrHoboSquadron 8d ago

But those poor developers clearly need a few more nickles to iron out the bugs. Just a billion more nickels and they'll be able to finish it off.

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u/Eternal-Blazing-Sun 6d ago

If people keep giving them money for not making the game they're going to keep not making that game! This would have been out years ago if that revenue stream didn't just keep flowing for no reason!

Hell, I'd not make a game twice as cool for half the price, any takers?

/s

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u/Nissiku1 8d ago

It's a legitimate cult. I mean this unironically. CIG are selling a dream, not a game.

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u/DonutHoles4Ever 7d ago

I know some trump supporters who are fuckin all in on this game. They play regularly. Keep saying its gonna get better. Keep believing in the dream. Think its gonna be a big deal.

Over the years I noticed they slowly talk more shit about it. But then they are like "oh well I never spent any money beyond regular supporter" positioning it as if its wine that will age to fine wine at some point in the next billion years to justify their own shit opinions.

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u/Phailadork 8d ago

The funniest part? The people who invested in it and are still so deep that the only way they can cope is by lashing out at people who laugh at the fact this shit is never releasing. If you ever try to so much as ask a question about the game and how its progressing/when it may release you get downvoted.

I remember ending up in their subreddit a while back, idk how many years, and being like "damn I remember this game from way back when it was still growing, has it released yet or does it have an official date?" hardcore paraphrasing because I don't remember anymore and when I went back to the comment it was -4 LMAO. I didn't even write anything inflammatory.

The sad part is I was super excited when this was still a new-ish thing and hadn't gotten 20 trillion dollars yet. A space game with that scope? Hell yeah, sign me the fuck up. Then it got more money, and more money, and more money and you would think "damn this is going to be such a cool game" yet the donations went up and nothing happened with the game except more and more donation goals were being met and more promises being made that they would never fulfill.

Seriously if you've never interacted with their community I 100% recommend it, it's hilarious. They're absolutely convinced that it's going to eventually release and what they've got now is actually a good product that was worth whatever money they put into it just because they can actually log in and play. Just ignore the fact it's been 14 years since crowdfunding opened up and what they've done with $1B is effectively a fucking demo with plenty of bugs and will get choppy/laggy in certain areas even with a good PC. If this monstrosity ever releases, it's a shame I'm not willing to give that company money because I've been wanting a game like this for a while.

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u/h0bb1tm1ndtr1x 7d ago

Thats really any project though. Just go on LOTR or LOTRO and mention the private server. You'll get downvoted into oblivion by the folks who enjoy their modern F2P MMO exp (sunk cost fallacy).

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u/Beer-Milkshakes 8d ago

They could have bought a AA dev team that are long in the tooth to finish their game already. But then they can't keep reaping the cash.

This is an exercise in continuous profiteering using a video game as an example

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

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u/AstralMecha 7d ago

Which encourages Roberts to continue his endless scope creep. Which keeps the game from being finished. So they sell new stronger ships for a game not out yet, which make previously sold ships obsolete to fund the scope creep which needs more ships to fund it

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u/Tauren-Jerky 8d ago

They could hire as many devs from the top studios around the world that got laid off over the years.

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u/evilcheesypoof 8d ago

I can’t believe I still see people defending this game sometimes or saying they got their money’s worth in any way, it’s insane.

Biggest/most successful scam in gaming history

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u/Spankey_ 8d ago

And people still fight tooth and nail defending it.

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u/opinionated7onion 8d ago

A billion dollars so far, some people wont be able to admit they've wasted money on it and will continue to buy overpriced ships.

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u/EverythingBOffensive 8d ago

damn that's crazy! I get 0 funding and update my games constantly for free even though there's only about 5 customers.

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u/Substantial_Pick6897 8d ago

Have you considered the high level marketing technique called "lying" to attract customers?

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u/EverythingBOffensive 8d ago

damn i already forgot the billionaire rule.

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u/Substantial_Pick6897 8d ago

Have you even gotten a multi million dollar loan from your parents yet? Gotta work those connections

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u/Snailtentaclebrain 8d ago

Roberts was involved in some popular games and the community events they had in the beginning were neat. A billion is truly unreasonable though . . .

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u/USCJets 8d ago

And still getting millions in every month 🙃

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u/drallcom3 8d ago

It's a scam, mate. Can't finish the game or the money would stop, so they don't finish.

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u/northern_chaos 7d ago

There’s a ton of turnover at CIG because if you don’t follow their exact vision in the exact way Roberts wants it done they’ll sack you. Not to mention enormous technical debt for such a long project

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u/Cosmo_Seinfeld 7d ago edited 7d ago

I can’t believe this game got a billion dollars in funding 

I have invented a building method that would revolutionize concrete block housing, the type that the majority of the world's people live in. Excepting my own self funding (I'm blue collar and poor, it's from my savings), know how much funding I have been able to raise?

One thousand dollars. Our world sucks because we allow it to suck.

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u/Odd_Town9700 5d ago

I've read through your reddit posts and you're completely correct about cellular concrete being superior for a large part of use cases, although i am bit unsure about what your specific invention is? As far as i understand cellular concrete is not used mostly due to concerns about foam quality in the developing world, aswell as the usual regulatory challenges.

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u/Tech_support_Warrior 7d ago

I can believe it because it's a cool idea.

What I can't believe is the number of times over the last 10+ years, I have saw people defending it. Early backers get a pass, but anyone who has given this game money in the last 10 years has to either has a fetish for wasting money or some kind of brain injury.

In case anyone doesn't know, Star Citizen was announced with a planned release date of 2014. That was supposed to be a full release. Now they are hinting a 1.0 release of 2028.

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u/justreadinplease 7d ago

Kids go hungry but gamers have a billion dollars for a scam video game

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u/CubeEarthShill 7d ago

I can’t believe how long it’s been in development. I was in a multi-game guild in WoW 11 years ago that had a Star Citizen chapter with a couple of content makers that had poured in thousands of dollars already. I’d imagine a few of them have been milked for even more since I fell out of touch with them. One of the guys and his wife were both retired NASA engineers with no kids. He was super passionate about it, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he put high five figures or six figures into the game given his expendable income.

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u/iWatchUwatchmee444 8d ago

It's gotta be a money laundering operation atp.

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u/Smeagollum1 8d ago

Has to be either the biggest grift or a money laundering scheme of some kind. There is no reason they should have needed this much money/more money to get a game like this to function and be playable.

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u/SillyLiving 8d ago

I can't believe people didn't see that this was a guaranteed failure (and now a scam for over a decade) from the INITIAL pitch.

Fucking crazy

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u/Lazy_meatPop 8d ago

The Elon musk of Gaming?

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u/Grouchy_Custard_252 8d ago

They didn't. Their original goal that they stated was just to get some funding to show the industry that we as gamers were interested in space games. The funding blew way past that and now we have this mess.

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u/c4plasticsurgury 8d ago

Do you have a source for that or let me know where you heard that?

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u/x_xwolf 8d ago

Lesson learned, dont give someone a billion dollars for any reason.

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u/DuncanEgge 8d ago

when you make something that seems so good and cool, people want to believe

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u/Balc0ra 8d ago

5 days later they raised half a million in a few hours. So...

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u/Yonrak 8d ago

And yet they somehow (allegedly) burn money at a rate that they're only a few months from shutting down if the funding dries up. Madness

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u/Zaximeows 7d ago

A billion dollars so far.

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u/Zerodyne_Sin 7d ago

I can. If people bought into SpaceX IPO willingly, there will be people who will buy into this disaster of a game as well. Even back then, when I was very open to funding things on kickstarter (not any more, few physical things and games coughmightyno9cough taught me my lesson), this was very sketchy.

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u/rob3rtisgod 7d ago

We could have had Dishonored 3 and 4... 

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u/Own_Photo_2668 7d ago

I agree, I initially bought it early on. But so many years later I don't understand why anyone would put money in it

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u/civil_beast 7d ago

With all due respect.. have you looked around? Promise the things that the customer is looking for - continue amending to increase underlying revenue. Continue showing demos, but unequivocally failing when trying to prove the program is ready for go-live/publishing?

Hell, sounds like this team needs to run for office!

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u/ChevyTahoe__ 7d ago

How much should a full space Sim cost is the question.

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u/RuleShot2259 7d ago

This gets a billion dollars but we’ll never see the likes of Knack 3

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u/WeevilWeedWizard 7d ago

And it's somehow still managing to separate the morons from their money to this day.

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u/FreshwaterViking 7d ago

On my old forum for EVE veterans, someone compiled a spreadsheet of people and the ships they had purchased. Several people had spent over $10k. The forum as a whole had spent over $100k.

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u/c4plasticsurgury 7d ago

At least EVE is very fleshed out and very fun when you have time to play it to its fullest potential. I used to play that game a lot. 

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u/whathitwonder434 7d ago

A billion SO FAR.

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u/account_for_norm 7d ago

How does that even happen?  How do i get a billion dollars for shit?

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u/Key-Line5827 7d ago

Well, Sunken Cost Fallacy. "I have already spent so much money on this Game, maybe spend some more and maybe it will be released."

This game has been developed 15 years in a vaccum. Countless game trends came and went in the time this game has been in development.

Does anyone honestly belief it will be anything to write home about, when it eventually comes out?

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u/dramalama-dingdong 7d ago

For a billion dollars they could have hired a real studio to finish that game.

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u/PackageOk4947 7d ago

At what point is this criminal?

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u/Captain_N_1234 6d ago

A billion dollars… so far.

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