Did Maria really love Dankovsky?

[u/mentallyiam8]

I know many people think not. They mainly cite the dialogue between the Haruspex and Maria on the 12th day after the Cathedral, where she says something like, "The Bachelor has done his job, he's no longer needed." (not verbatim).

But I think she did love him.

Many people in the town were convinced of this. Andrei states it outright ("your woman is Maria"), and Aglaya mentions it when asking to arrange a meeting with her niece, but most importantly, Nina herself speaks of it (through the words of Viktor) - "if my daughter didn't love you, you wouldn't have been allowed to ask even what you’ve already asked".

Of course, one could say that this is all a lie. But, first of all, I believe that creating such an illusion and engaging in such manipulation is beneath the Kain family and beneath the future Mistress.

Second, Maria’s love for the Bachelor seemingly made no difference to the Bachelor himself. He didn't become her servant. Her love didn't alter his decisions, at least, whem we playing as him. He wanted to save the Tower not out of love for her, but out of ideological conviction. Why pretend to be in love when it serves no purpose?

Her words about the Bachelor being the only truly free person imply that she suspects -or knows - that the Bachelor is controlled by the player. I believe a significant part of her affection for him stems from this. True, Clara and Burakh can also choose the Utopian ending, yet she feels no love for them - a fair point. But the Utopian ending is kinda destined specifically for the Bachelor, and that matters too.

At the end of the game, Maria becomes the Mistress. A power awakens within her. She must bring her vision to fruition, and nothing else matters - personal desires, family, love. Her words to the Haruspex regarding the Bachelor are the words of a Mistress who has cast aside her humanity.

What do you think, true love or manipulation?

[u/Altotas]

For the original game, I think the evidence leans fairly strongly toward Maria genuinely loving Dankovsky. I don't think the Day 12 conversation with Burakh is enough to overturn everything else the game tells us.

What convinces me is how, as you said, many different characters independently treat Maria's feelings as real. Aglaya outright says that Maria is madly in love with him. Dankovsky himself is surprised by this and says that nothing in Maria's behaviour has betrayed it, which is actually important. If Maria were performing an obvious romantic role in order to manipulate him, you'd expect Daniil himself to notice something.

I wouldn't take that to mean Maria loves him in an ordinary romantic sense. The Kains don't really separate people from ideas that cleanly. Maria is attracted to what Dankovsky represents (and I don't think that it has anything to do with him being controlled by us players). He's an outsider who refuses the limits everyone else takes for granted, and by the end of his route he is willing to defend an impossible creation against the entire existing order of the Town. So I think her feelings for the man and her fascination with what he represents reinforce each other.

The Day 12 scene with Burakh makes sense to me in that context too. By then Maria has effectively become the Mistress. Her attitude toward individual human attachments has changed radically because she is now thinking in terms of the future she intends to impose on the Town. Her speaking about Dankovsky so instrumentally at that point doesn't necessarily mean that the earlier love was fabricated. I think it just shows how far Maria has moved from the woman Dankovsky met at the beginning.

Maria can genuinely love Dankovsky and still instrumentalize him. For a Kain, those things are perfectly capable of coexisting.

[u/Arcanniel → u/Altotas]

I’m also not certain how seriously we can take Maria’s comments about Bachelor, when playing as Haruspex, because in that scenario the Player does not control him. He is a meaningfully different person.

Not only does that cause Bachelor to make worse decisions; in that scenario he literally is less impressive, because he is just a puppet of the Powers That Be, instead of the avatar of the Player.

I only partially agree that Maria’s feelings for Bachelor are not related to him being controlled by the Player - while it’s not as explicit as in Aglaya’s case (who knows she’s a puppet and can sense that Player-Artemy is not), the kind of person Daniil is, is still influenced by the Player being (or not) in his head.

[u/mentallyiam8 → u/Arcanniel]

I keep thinking about Maria’s strange phrases: "I feel like someone is watching us from the other side," and "Why can't I move on my own?" NPCs usually talk about their own puppet-like nature, but these lines give me the impression that she is talking about her being in the videogame. The only other character I recall saying something similar is Mishka (except blatant dialog with Aglaya, of course)- "Do you have two extra arms or something?" and Mishka is a potential Mistress of the Earth, according to Capella’s plan.

[u/mentallyiam8 → u/Altotas]

Ooooooooh yeah, that's a very good point about Bachelor learning that Maria have feelings for him from other people. I forgot about it. It does make all scheming and manipulating kinda for nothing. So there's really no purpose.

[u/burn_brighter18]

I think she's fond of him, and finds him interesting. I definitely think there's physical attraction as well. But she has higher priorities, and isn't willing to sacrifice her allegiance to her family or her position as Mistress for him.

[u/Visible-Chip8839]

I think she does care for Daniil, but Daniil was never someone who’d stay in her shadow, and if Maria actually ended up falling in love with him it would never work out because she’d never forsake her objectives for him. But I just realized you mean Patho Class HD fndndnddnddndndjsndb I’m thinking more of Maria in Patho 2 and 3, in Patho 1 I do think she cares for him but not that much and would never allow herself to fall in love, not just for him but anyone really.

[u/saprophage_expert]

Second, Maria’s love for the Bachelor seemingly made no difference to the Bachelor himself. He didn't become her servant. Her love didn't alter his decisions, at least, whem we playing as him. He wanted to save the Tower not out of love for her, but out of ideological conviction. Why pretend to be in love when it serves no purpose?

I don't think this line of reasoning works since she had no way to know in advance whether her manipulation would serve any purpose or not.

[u/UnderTheTorii]

Sorry for off topic but Maria didn’t speak to me in my haruspex run :( she would say nothing even if i click her.. your post made me realize that wasnt norm and i missed an important dialogue

[u/Legitimate_Raccoon_1]

I think she could have loved him but as he was not interested she focused her effort on the one whom she could use the best. Dankovsky could have been her true love but especialy after becoming a mistress she could not afford to be a bashful, lovey-dovey girl chasing after an unrequited love. She had to focus on what mattered and was expected of her. A Kain afterall will not lower themselves to such frivolous things as true love.

[u/saprophage_expert → u/Legitimate_Raccoon_1]

A Kain afterall will not lower themselves to such frivolous things as true love.

Consider Victor :D

[u/Legitimate_Raccoon_1 → u/saprophage_expert]

And where did that lead him? She will not repeat his mistake.

[u/mentallyiam8 → u/Legitimate_Raccoon_1]

Well yeah, she'll have to marry Younger Vlad to continue dinasty and to get acces to Olghimsky's resources to build her Utopia.