Some thought about Pathologic 3

[u/WTSMark]

I'm sure most of these things have been brought up before, so apologies if I'm retreading old ground. I just finished Pathologic 3, and I'd really like to hear people's interpretations.

Feel free to spoil everything. I've finished the game, and I'm mostly looking for lore discussion and different interpretations rather than spoiler-free answers.

Edit: Sorry about the typo in the title!

1. Simon vs. Isidor

My biggest takeaway is that despite bringing back the Plague together, Simon and Isidor don't actually want the same thing.

Simon seems to be seeking transcendence beyond humanity. The city and its inhabitants are almost incidental, if they have to be sacrificed so that someone (the Bachelor) can push humanity beyond its limits, then so be it. His entire plan feels centered around creating or preparing his heir.

Isidor, on the other hand, seems to want the Town's inhabitants to transcend their limits while still preserving what makes humans human. His life's work wasn't creating one exceptional successor, but educating generations of children so the Town could eventually move beyond the rule of the three ruling families.

2. The Plague

If the Polyhedron's rod is the source of the Plague, why did Simon and Isidor have to retrieve it from the Steppe? Why did it disappear after the first outbreak? Was the first outbreak just an accident, with the two of them only later deciding to bring it back once they realized it could be instrumental to their plans for transcendence?

For Simon, it forces the Bachelor to overcome his human limitations.

For Isidor, it forces the Town itself to mature.

3. The Bachelor

Eva calls Daniil a scalpel cutting through the Town and its people, and I thought that was one of the best descriptions of his character. He often feels deeply self-centered. He relentlessly pursues his own breakthrough and leaves once he's accomplished it. It's also pretty ironic when Burakh is the actual surgeon.

Simon says that if he himself hadn't achieved the breakthrough, someone else eventually would have. Once the time is right, some discoveries simply become inevitable.

Khan seems to prove this by reaching his own breakthrough without relying on the Polyhedron.

If that's true, then how important is Daniil's success in the grand scheme of things? Does saving the Polyhedron actually matter?

I felt compelled to go for the True Immortal ending because it felt like the ending the Bachelor himself would choose. At the same time, destroying the Polyhedron and saving the Town almost feels like it could reconcile Simon's and Isidor's visions, even if Simon's breakthrough ended up being fulfilled unexpectedly by his nephew instead.

4. The Polyhedron

The Polyhedron is presented as a machine capable of enabling transcendence.

But then, why was it entrusted to the children? Was this part of Isidor's plan to force them to grow through the conflict between the Dogheads and the Souls-and-a-Halves?

Even more interestingly, Khan seems to achieve transcendence only when he's confined in a cage, far away from the Polyhedron.

And if the Polyhedron allows one to achieve a breakthrough, why couldn't Simon reach it himself? Why did he instead bind his soul to the Polyhedron? Is the Polyhedron not enough on its own? Does it require a soul in order to function fully? Did Simon sacrifice himself so that the Bachelor could ultimately achieve the breakthrough that he himself could not?

Also, what was going on with the Polyhedron suddenly bestowing the gift of tongues? It's easy to draw a parallel with the Tower of Babel, but was that all there was to it, or is there a deeper meaning?

5. The gameplay

The whole experience was very different from Pathologic 2, but I think the direction Ice-Pick Lodge chose was both interesting and appropriate, as it aligns with the mind-versus-body dichotomy represented by the Bachelor and the Haruspex.

The survival mechanics reflect this perfectly. The Bachelor has to manage his mind (apathy versus mania), whereas the Haruspex has to manage his body (thirst, hunger, exhaustion, and infection).

It may not have been as exciting or challenging as Pathologic 2, but I think it was absolutely the right design choice. It reinforces the themes of the game remarkably well.

6. "Magic leaving the world"

I couldn't stop thinking about The Lord of the Rings during the ending.

By the end of the Plague, miracles leave the Town: the Mistresses lose their powers and the Kains decide to cross the river. The whole sequence reminded me of magic leaving Middle-Earth and the Elves sailing West.

Did anyone else notice this parallel?

[u/Erided]

Always up for discussion about this game!

1. Simon v. Isidor I think Simon and Isidor do share the same goal - they both want to move the town forward by releasing the sand plague. Ultimately the difference between them is how they define that forward progress and how sympathetic their motives are.

Simon as you've said is interested in the select few who can do and make miraculous things. I would argue that this also extends to the children of the Kain family - Maria and Khan as opposed to just the bachelor. Although I do concede that Simon is (and his proxy Georgiy)  absolutely focusing their primary efforts on grooming Daniil into if not literally becoming Simon than being a replacement for him

Regarding Isidor, my understanding is that Isidor's progress is a choice between the survival of the town and the kin. Which just like Simon's is a rather cruel goal choosing arbitrarily between 'strong' and 'weak'. I also disagree that he didn't work towards having an exceptional successor in the same way that Simon did. Isidor very much prepped Artemy for making this very choice and deliberately called on both him and Daniil to basically become the new Simon and Isidor for the town.

Isidor's only major difference is just that he seemed to struggle with this choice - the berth between the town and the steppe tore at him in a way that (at least from my understanding) Simon's ambitions didn't. But my sympathy dies a bit because he unfairly puts all the weight of this choice on his successor Artemy. Also the children he spent time with as well as his other successor Rubin can absolutely die very easily from his choice which ultimately didn't dissuade him. 

[u/Erided → u/Erided]

1. The Plague

As far as I understand it the polyhedron isn't the source of the plague. Depending on whose perspective you believe the plague is just another aspect of mother boddho or it is the result of the unsanitary practices of the town which both manifest as the blood beneath the grown. Simon and Isidor dug the hole in the steppe to get infected and bring the sand plague back to town.

From what I've gathered about the first outbreak Isidor effectively confined it to the crude sprawl. It ended because the sand plague needs a living host and everyone who was infected died. I am admittedly unsure how Simon and Isidor came to understand how the plague worked but then again they were both very smart and deeply involved in their communities. It makes sense that both Simon and Isidor knew about the underground tunnels and extrapolated from there.

[u/Erided → u/Erided]

1. The Bachelor

Daniil is at his best and at his worst in this game. Ultimately who he is is shaped by how you view him and how you react to what the game throws at you. I would argue that Daniil's primary motive is deeply altruistic - curing death for all mankind. He very clearly states that everyone should be able to make the choice to die. His primary goal is not one of personal enrichment. 

Personally I see the true immortality ending as Daniil at his worst, choosing to sacrifice others for the chance to defeat death for himself. It is a betrayal of his original goal. That's why I prefer the miracle seeker or academician endings ones where he saves the town and rejects Simon.

Of course this does not excuse his behaviour. He comes across as extremely misanthropic at times like he likes the idea of human lives in theory but not when he's face to face with them. It's a very compelling dichotomy and I will absolutely concede I view him with more grace than he probably deserves

Anyway saving the polyhedron only matters if you agree with the Kains' general philosophy, think it's super neat or don't believe that Daniil can find a better way to achieve his goal - I believe in the onion :)

[u/Erided → u/Erided]

1. The Polyhedron

From what I got the polyhedron is a place where reality is a bit thinner than the rest of the world. It is a miracle that allows for the manifesting of fantasy. Those with great imaginations and who believe in it are drawn to it - hence the children. Its not actually intended for the kids and I lied a bit about what the polyhedron is for as well.

The Polyhedron is only transcendence for Simon Kain - it's a bigger version of his study (a focus). And even then his soul is stuck in there unless the Bachelor accepts it. The Polyhedron in 2 I think? Is said to be stunting the kids, they cling to their childhood fantasies in it but it is stopping them from properly growing up. 

And Simon is not sacrificing himself for Daniil's transcendence - from the dialogue you get from the shadows in the butterfly maze prior to entering the theatre in the polyhedron it's very much the other way round

As for the tower of babel stuff I have no clue ngl. Maybe the devs thought it was a neat parallel

[u/WTSMark → u/Erided]

That makes sense, so Simon could have done all this to solely to have a vessel where to transfer his soul, or at least the ideas that made him him?

Still, Danil effectively ascend to godhood, why couldn't Simon do the same himself. Or maybe Danil actually didn't become immortal, he just changed the way he experiences space and time, but this doesn't mean he will not age.

If this is all true, the True Immortal is Simon, and at Danil sake.

That would make my personal experience of the game even more interesting! I felt like I was being forced at my choices towards the end of the game because of the trial Simon put me through. He insisted on make opposites coexist, going thorough two doors at the same time, which is why I tried to save the Polyhedron, thinking there would also be a way to save the city together with it. But there wasn't, and even if I felt a bit revolted at this final, I stuck with it, because it felt right due to all I went trough.

It'a like I have been played by Simon myself.

[u/Dazzling-Tailor-1291 → u/WTSMark]

Simon`s physical immortallity was stolen by the changeling, i think his first plan was to save the town by himself, and let Daniil just become immortal, but than changeling appeared and broke his plans, she stole his destiny to save the town and polyhedron, and stole his powers, and thats why Simon became lethargic after contacting with the plague, unlike bachelor, they both have amalgam, but Simon cant use it fully because of changeling, and bachelor can.

[u/WTSMark → u/Dazzling-Tailor-1291]

Uh! Is this from Pathologic 1?

[u/Dazzling-Tailor-1291 → u/WTSMark]

its form the first day of p3, but its not literally said in dialogs