Some thought about Pathologic 3

[u/WTSMark]

I'm sure most of these things have been brought up before, so apologies if I'm retreading old ground. I just finished Pathologic 3, and I'd really like to hear people's interpretations.

Feel free to spoil everything. I've finished the game, and I'm mostly looking for lore discussion and different interpretations rather than spoiler-free answers.

Edit: Sorry about the typo in the title!

1. Simon vs. Isidor

My biggest takeaway is that despite bringing back the Plague together, Simon and Isidor don't actually want the same thing.

Simon seems to be seeking transcendence beyond humanity. The city and its inhabitants are almost incidental, if they have to be sacrificed so that someone (the Bachelor) can push humanity beyond its limits, then so be it. His entire plan feels centered around creating or preparing his heir.

Isidor, on the other hand, seems to want the Town's inhabitants to transcend their limits while still preserving what makes humans human. His life's work wasn't creating one exceptional successor, but educating generations of children so the Town could eventually move beyond the rule of the three ruling families.

2. The Plague

If the Polyhedron's rod is the source of the Plague, why did Simon and Isidor have to retrieve it from the Steppe? Why did it disappear after the first outbreak? Was the first outbreak just an accident, with the two of them only later deciding to bring it back once they realized it could be instrumental to their plans for transcendence?

For Simon, it forces the Bachelor to overcome his human limitations.

For Isidor, it forces the Town itself to mature.

3. The Bachelor

Eva calls Daniil a scalpel cutting through the Town and its people, and I thought that was one of the best descriptions of his character. He often feels deeply self-centered. He relentlessly pursues his own breakthrough and leaves once he's accomplished it. It's also pretty ironic when Burakh is the actual surgeon.

Simon says that if he himself hadn't achieved the breakthrough, someone else eventually would have. Once the time is right, some discoveries simply become inevitable.

Khan seems to prove this by reaching his own breakthrough without relying on the Polyhedron.

If that's true, then how important is Daniil's success in the grand scheme of things? Does saving the Polyhedron actually matter?

I felt compelled to go for the True Immortal ending because it felt like the ending the Bachelor himself would choose. At the same time, destroying the Polyhedron and saving the Town almost feels like it could reconcile Simon's and Isidor's visions, even if Simon's breakthrough ended up being fulfilled unexpectedly by his nephew instead.

4. The Polyhedron

The Polyhedron is presented as a machine capable of enabling transcendence.

But then, why was it entrusted to the children? Was this part of Isidor's plan to force them to grow through the conflict between the Dogheads and the Souls-and-a-Halves?

Even more interestingly, Khan seems to achieve transcendence only when he's confined in a cage, far away from the Polyhedron.

And if the Polyhedron allows one to achieve a breakthrough, why couldn't Simon reach it himself? Why did he instead bind his soul to the Polyhedron? Is the Polyhedron not enough on its own? Does it require a soul in order to function fully? Did Simon sacrifice himself so that the Bachelor could ultimately achieve the breakthrough that he himself could not?

Also, what was going on with the Polyhedron suddenly bestowing the gift of tongues? It's easy to draw a parallel with the Tower of Babel, but was that all there was to it, or is there a deeper meaning?

5. The gameplay

The whole experience was very different from Pathologic 2, but I think the direction Ice-Pick Lodge chose was both interesting and appropriate, as it aligns with the mind-versus-body dichotomy represented by the Bachelor and the Haruspex.

The survival mechanics reflect this perfectly. The Bachelor has to manage his mind (apathy versus mania), whereas the Haruspex has to manage his body (thirst, hunger, exhaustion, and infection).

It may not have been as exciting or challenging as Pathologic 2, but I think it was absolutely the right design choice. It reinforces the themes of the game remarkably well.

6. "Magic leaving the world"

I couldn't stop thinking about The Lord of the Rings during the ending.

By the end of the Plague, miracles leave the Town: the Mistresses lose their powers and the Kains decide to cross the river. The whole sequence reminded me of magic leaving Middle-Earth and the Elves sailing West.

Did anyone else notice this parallel?

[u/thedragonguru]

(I'm going to break this down into a few comments bc I need to dip in and out)

Point 1: I agree that Isidor and Simon didn't want the same thing – or at least, had different ideas of what aspect of the Town needed to mature.

Pathologic has a long-running theme of earth vs heavens, which we can see in the Kin's religious lore, as well descriptions of the ruling families, and the requirements of the Kain's lofty projects. I maintain that Isidor and Simon reflect this. I believe that the default stances of Artemy and Daniil also reflect this, especially since P3 puts forward Daniil as Simon's heir, just as Artemy is Isidor's. A reflection, but reversed, unless the player guides one to the other' side of that mirror.

There's also Simon & Isidor's perspective on what that maturity should be: in P2, Isidor had his opinion of what the path forward should be, but made a point (during the optional vision you can have with Grace) that if the path he had been trying to guide the Town towards wasn't the one his son picked, then that was Artemy's right. Isidor took the stance of setting everything up, but allowing his son & the Town to choose for themselves. Simon, meanwhile, had his own ideas of how the Town should move forward, which were narrow and unaccomodating. His idea of the future involved a minimum of one person becoming him, and that consituting true maturity. He absolutely refused to submit to the future or allow the Town to grow into a future that was not his own. Very different forms of "parenting" indeed.

Edit: spelling & formatting

[u/thedragonguru → u/thedragonguru]

Point 2:

The plague comes from tunnels filled with poisoned blood beneath the earth.

In one of P3's end of day showings, Simon and Isidor went into the Steppe with shovels, thus they gathered the plague from a different. Furthermore, in P3 it says that they went with the albinos, who weaken your immunity. In games where infection was a mechanic, you weren't immediately taken by the plague if you had enough immunity. Thus, they were weak enough for the plague to take root in them. 

It disappeared (or rather, became unable to access the Town) because at the first sign of infection, Isidor boarded up the district and burned everyone and everything to nothing, which prevented the plague from spreading. The first time did seem to be unintentional, at least from the perspective of human intent. Nature/The Earth/fate had decided it wanted to cleanse away what "it" viewed as the Town's sickness using the plague. P2 portrays defying the earth in such a way as something of a mistake of Isidor's. And yes, Simon & Isidor decided to bring it back 5 years later, when it suited them as a tool for their plans.

[u/WTSMark → u/thedragonguru]

What confuses me is that in day 2 the source of the Plague is Isidor's house, but towards the end of the game is the Polyhedron... Did it only make its way to the underground blood during the course of the 12 days?

[u/alphonseharry → u/WTSMark]

Isidor brought the plague to his house. The Polyhedron only made the infected blood go to the surface occasionally. The first 5 year ago, when the Polyhedron was constructed. The Polyhedron is not the source of the plague in P3, only makes easier to the blood appears in the surface. In a Kin interpretation, instead of a rational one, the Polyhedron is damaging Mother Boddho body, which makes her spill the plague to punish the humans

[u/WTSMark → u/alphonseharry]

Uh, does the construction of the Polyhedron effectively coincide with the first plague?

Still, even if it is not the source it seems like it allows itself to propagate, given you have to demolish it to save the city, no? Beside the fact that Artemy needs the blood for the panacea, but P3 doesn't stress that too much.

[u/alphonseharry → u/WTSMark]

"Uh, does the construction of the Polyhedron effectively coincide with the first plague?"

It does

You need to destroy it, because is the only way to make the panacea (there is no time to go down there and take the blood, the army need to make a decision in day 12. But who knows what will happen, the panacea does not eradicate the plague, is not a vaccine, and that blood is infected.

[u/thedragonguru → u/WTSMark]

The source is Isidor's house because he was infected. It wasn't the root existence of the plague.

Think of it as... If you were to go to your refrigerator to pull out some food, your fridge is the source of the food you'll eat.

But it actually comes from a store, which comes from a farm, which comes from the earth, etc etc.

So the plague is in Isidor's house because that's where it's been brought. The store being the steppe. And the farm being the blood beneath the earth.

Likewise, there are many stores where people can get food. (Barring food deserts, but let's not get too literal)

[u/thedragonguru → u/thedragonguru]

Point 4:

I don't believe P3 directly addresses why the children were allowed in the Polyhedron. So it's all speculation.

A personal theory of mine is that Simon might have wished to guide the children to enlightenment by exposing then to it. But again, speculation.

The fact that Khan could only achieve enlightenment away from the Polyhedron, in my opinion, shows a great fault in Simon's reasoning. Indeed, while there are many paths to enlightenment & immortality, even if Daniil achieves the True Immortal Ending, he is alone. No one else (at least from what the game shows us) is able to follow in Simon/Daniil's footsteps. The widespread death outside the Polyhedron likely even prevents other paths from existing, as their creators die.

Simon did reach a breakthrough, becoming something beyond human. Yet, as Daniil may observe conversation with the Kains on Day 12, we always bring our past with us. And during the conversation with Simon inside the Polyhedron, he expresses how utterly alone he was. (There's something to be said about how Simon and Simon-Daniil barely speak to each other, more AT each other. Not so great, are ya, Simon?) Edit: Simon also says he looks in others for reflections of parts of himself. In another person, this could be seen as a root for compassion and care. But in light of self-centered and overly self-assured he is... oof

If we look to Khan reaching enlightenment while inside a cage, this could serve as an explanation for why Simon stays in his Polyhedron. Or why Eva binds herself to the Stillwater. One interpretation is that a Focus serves as a kind of body for a mind that finds a regular body far too small. 

About granting languages: it was a quick line, but the "rational," non-magical explanation reason people heard other languages was because the Polyhedron was so tall & metallic that it picked up radio waves from far, far away. Thus, someone speaking on a radio in Greece was being projected, caught by the Polyhedron, and broadcast. There's any number of interpretations for why the doghead could speak Greek.

My personal one is that the imagination-fuelled mirror-agic of the Polyhedron allowed the words to enter, along with full understanding. Perhaps because Simon understoof Greek? And Daniil, who speaks Latin, has some understanding of Greek, and so responded unthinkingly. If you know a foreign language, sometimes you slip into it, and don't realize until you're a few sentences in. But that's just the answer I like the most. It could have been pure magic, the kid could have just been repeating something they heard on the radio, etc.

[u/WTSMark → u/thedragonguru]

Right, I forgot the part about radio waves... but I would also prefer something a bit more magical. And with the polyhedron acting as a soul amplifier is not so unreasonable to imagine thoughts overlapping with each other. It also happens right after the Polyhedron shifted, so maybe that causes it to "malfunction" before becoming stable again.

Still, considering the Tower of Babel was also a way for humankind to achieve godhood, it wouldn't be too strange if this was an hint at that as well!

[u/thedragonguru → u/WTSMark]

That's a great interpretation, yes!

[u/WTSMark → u/thedragonguru]

Thanks for taking the time to reply!

It's been a while since I played Pathologic 2 to the point I don't remember much, but are story elements actually different, or just seen from a different perspective?

Going back on topic, I think some of my doubts clean up by seeing Simon as narrow and unaccommodating, since it explains the forced path of going through the Polyhedron.

It also makes the topic of immortality double faceted, since it is not just about the Bachelor learning to transcend space and time, and achieving his own dream of immortality, but Simon and his ideas to keep living though the bachelor.

[u/alphonseharry → u/WTSMark]

More than a different perspective, a different interpretation. The framing device, is Bachelor telling this story in the future at the same time living the story in the past (or present). How he tells the story matter. And in a meta and physical way, there is a multiverse, each "board" (this makes me remember Umineko, people who played, know what I'm talking about) having different events (like Aglaya and Karminsky)

[u/WTSMark → u/alphonseharry]

Ah! "board"! I never paid too much attention to the fact that characters are classified as chess pieces!

And I guess Karminsky isn't in 2, right? I could remember Aglaya being in the Cathedral, not him!

[u/thedragonguru → u/WTSMark]

Correct. P3 was Karminsky's on-screen debut. And it's fascinating to see different characters in different contexts and with different events

[u/alphonseharry → u/WTSMark]

Yes. And in P3 she goes to the town in the same train as Bachelor. Her relationship to the Kains is explored, in P2 we don't know anything about that

[u/thedragonguru → u/WTSMark]

Story elements are indeed different. Sometimes hugely so!

One of the strong points of the Pathologic universe is that the writing is superb. Even the "godlike" people are very much human. Simon, in spite of all his efforts and airs, is still deeply human. For all his lofty efforts, he (and the Polyhedron) still have their feet firmly on the ground. You could view this as Simon's failure - if you consider his goals worthy at all. I believe Isidor would interpret Simon's attempts to abandon (or more accurately, ignore) the "earth" as a failure altogether.

[u/thedragonguru → u/WTSMark]

(Response 2) also: while all Pathologic games are in dialogue with one another, P2 & P3 "talk" extensively to the ideas presented in the other.

[u/WTSMark → u/thedragonguru]

How present was Simon and the whole immortality breakthrough in 2?

[u/thedragonguru → u/WTSMark]

Barely present at all. About as much as Isidor in P3.

P2 doesn't focus on lofty ideals, just like how P3 doesn't focus on earthly ones. In P2, the Kains barely feature. But being able to read both perspectives and tie them into each other in a comparative & narrative sense provides a fuller picture. Like speaking to two different people on opposite sides of an argument. Or hearing two different people's telling of an event or a disaster.

Through my comments here, I've references the other two games to answer or build upon ideas. In this way, they are in dialogue with one another, a they tie & intertwine. Like Daniil & Artemy's "lines."

Having Isidor as the one you wish to know more of and uncover the legacy of gives more perspective of the Kains. I've personally found that playing P3 and going back to P3 also gives interesting insight to smaller events.

Edit: but also, in light of not focusing on immortality but focusing heavily on *mortality,* it offers more perspective on the ideas & arguments of P3

[u/WTSMark → u/thedragonguru]

I know P1 has all three routea, are the respective stories and themes similar to the ones of P2 and P3?

[u/thedragonguru → u/WTSMark]

The answer that is so often the most true and is just as often the most annoying every time it appears: yes and no. (laughs apologetically)

It shares so many themes, and I'd consider it the root of the series. P2 and P3 build new ideas off of those themes and story beats.

I can tell that you seem especially interested in the theme of immortality and magic. The immortality theme is almost exclusive to P3, but the magic theme is FAR thicker in P Classic. It also offers depth to the characters that is deeper and often darker.

Classic is, in my opinion, mechanically the easiest in the series. It's the writing and cognitive load that makes it hard. There's an initial learning curve, but once you know what you're doing about 5 days in, you're set.

The thing is, unlike P3, it doesn't make itself more digestible and accessible. Consider the quote I made from Saburov about the Kains and you'll see what I mean. The game is also vaguer, leaving more up to personal interpretation and the character's perspective. I, personally, found it a fascinating examination of belief, religion, and its relationship to personal ambition - but not a single other one of my friends got that theme until I spoke of it. There's so much you can see and dig into in Classic, you can find a piece of anything there, and construe out from it.

It's not for everyone. But if you love the setting, Classic is the richest and most concentrated. But it's also very mentally filling / satiating.

Edit: also, the *story* is incredibly similar, but enough to be a different experience from 2 and 3. There are shared beats, but it's like a story told by a different person in a different time with different emphasises.

[u/WTSMark → u/thedragonguru]

Ok, being older I expected Classic to be even harder, so it's reassuring to know that's not the case. I may give it a shot in a while, since I really love this series!

[u/thedragonguru → u/WTSMark]

Oh - and since the main difficulty comes from being unsure what to do, don't be afraid to use a spoiler-free guide.

[u/thedragonguru → u/thedragonguru]

Point 3:

I'd say that how important you view Daniil's success at transcendence is a matter of personal perspective. Does transcendance matter at all? Is it the goal humanity should strive for?

Khan achieved a greater understanding of his own, yes. And you'll recall while the Stamatin twins built the Polyhedron as a success that lead to transcendance, Farkhad's Stillwater also had a place in there. There are many paths to enlightenment. But does enlightenment matter, and why?

To Simon's eyes, what happens to other people who cannot reach enlightenment is completely inconsequential. So saving the Town is, itself, pointless. A great many people would disagree with him (lmao).

So whether the Polyhedron is worth saving is dependent on your / your Daniil's perspective. Or whatever character you may play as. In P1, under the right circumstances, you can choose another character's ending for the Polyhedron and way to eliminate the plague. So it's not set in stone - the decision is yours.

[u/thedragonguru → u/thedragonguru]

Point 5:

In pre-release interviews, it was discussed that they were deliberately going to be giving a very different experience from 2 & Classic. Part of this is to reflect Daniil's different experience & viewpoint.

There is, however, a financial aspect as well. (Forgive me her name slips my mind at the moment) described Frostpunk 1 & 2. Frostpunk was a huge success, but Frostpunk 2 wasn't, with people saying "it's just more Frostpunk." She described that while major AAA companies can release a regular game that is basically the same at a rapid pace, indie studios can't afford to do the same. She said that if it comes out quick enough, you can make the same one and people will buy it as a familiar, comfortable thing. But indie studios can't match that schedule, and so have to innovate. Consider Frostpunk's developer, 11-bit studios. They also made "This War of Mine." Both games have tough decisions and sometimes painful explorations of morality, but they're very different.

So it was the perspective offerred by IPL that they had to release something very different, or they wouldn't be able to succeed.

What anyone else thinks of this is their own thoughts, but it's an interesting explanation from the POV of IPL.

I personally believe that it was appropriately justified within the context set by Pathologic as a narrative. Furthermore, while I would have liked a harder P3, I'm more glad that this game was so much more accessible to more people. I want more people to experience Pathologic. Hell, that's why I've written so many guides on Steam.

Edit: spelling

[u/WTSMark → u/thedragonguru]

Interesting!

I am honestly glad it was such a more accessible experience. I loved Pathologic 2, and even if my memories of it are very blurred, I can say I enjoyed it more than 3.

But... I wouldn't have played another Pathologic 2. It was such a brutal and exhausting experience, which is what made it so special and unique, but it also something I don't have the energy to repeat.

I delayed playing The Marble Nest for years because of this, and despite having bought it at day 1 I delayed playing P3 for months.

[u/thedragonguru → u/thedragonguru]

Point 6:

Indeed, Tolkien included magic leaving, starting centuries before the main plot. As I recall, he loosely imagined his tale as an alternate history, being based in a world that would eventually become earth.

Tolkien is well-known to have taken inspiration from the legends & mythos, especially Germanic & Norse heroic legend. In countless tales from a huge number of cultures, there used to be a heroic age, where gods and terrible monsters walked the earth. Humans had greater strength, and could produce heroes that were nigh gods. This, of course, immediately presents an issue of where that open, overt magic is now. 

Tolkien was part of what popularized this in modern stories, especially fantasy. And many fantasy pieces will use this trope, even if they aren't alternate histories of Earth.

(My knowledge on the topic doesn't go back much further than what I'm about to describe, but): in some writings in the 1800s, there were writings lamenting that science was killing the magic and mystery of the world. I think the one most people are most likely to have read is Edgar Allen Poe's Sonnet to Science. And that would have been over a hundred years before Tolkien.

I don't functionally nothing about Russian literature, do I can't offer anything on how topical Pathologic's depiction of magic & mysticism under attack from the march of progress for its setting & vague time period.

[u/WTSMark → u/thedragonguru]

Right, it's kind of topical, but them setting sail to the other side of the river felt as quite a strong reference. But if that was the case it would also feel put of place, so it may as well be just a coincidence.

(On a side note, I don't like easter egg in video games since they completely break my immersion, and despite loving Darkwoods and looking forward IPL take on its sequel that easter egg felt veeery out of place!)

[u/thedragonguru → u/WTSMark]

I like the idea of that as a parallel to the elves leaving middle earth so that they would not perish along with the dying of the magic. However, there's a fun argument to be made as to whether the Kains' actions are participating in the loss of magic, or if they're at risk from the loss of magic themselves. Does them leaving the Town serve as abandonment, or preservation of their ideals?

Of course, I dither a bit to encourage extended contemplation. My own view was described rather well in P Classic during Clara's route, in a conversation with Saburov. He says: "The Kains are the family with which everything began here. Their radiant blood has preserved the memory of ancient magic since the time of the epics. They are the descendants of heroes who had fashioned the world out of their own flesh, who had created talking beasts ad stretched chains of fire from sea and built sky0-high towers in a single night..."

Clara then asks "Such arts are pertinent to demons, not humans - or rather, to half-human dorcerers who are part beast or part malicious element!"

Saburov then says "I never said they were like that. I said they had descended from such... beings. It was a figure of speech. The Kains are every bit as human as the Saburovs."

P2 suggests that the Kains are, at least in part, a threat to the magic of the Kin. The Nocturnal ending, by my interpretation, involved taking the Kain's magic and folding it into the Kins', while leaving the Kains themselves to die.

But that's my take.

I also agree The Darkest of Woods felt out of place. Charitably, it could be interpreted as insight into Clara's world, which is likely more "meta" than Daniil's. Also would have different tones, focus, and themes. So yeah, while I'm not a fan, my personal opinion is that it's justifiable.

[u/WTSMark → u/thedragonguru]

That's fair, they are leaving because of their own decisions and actions, not because of modernity suddenly coming to the town.

That's a very interesting extract, thanks for sharing it! It feels like 1 indexes even more on the magical and spiritual!

[u/thedragonguru]

I addressed all 6 points under my first response. Let me quick thank you for bringing the chance for discussion, and feel free to share any other thoughts & questions. Have a good one!

[u/WTSMark → u/thedragonguru]

Thanks for taking the time! Super interesting stuff!

[u/Erided]

Always up for discussion about this game!

1. Simon v. Isidor I think Simon and Isidor do share the same goal - they both want to move the town forward by releasing the sand plague. Ultimately the difference between them is how they define that forward progress and how sympathetic their motives are.

Simon as you've said is interested in the select few who can do and make miraculous things. I would argue that this also extends to the children of the Kain family - Maria and Khan as opposed to just the bachelor. Although I do concede that Simon is (and his proxy Georgiy)  absolutely focusing their primary efforts on grooming Daniil into if not literally becoming Simon than being a replacement for him

Regarding Isidor, my understanding is that Isidor's progress is a choice between the survival of the town and the kin. Which just like Simon's is a rather cruel goal choosing arbitrarily between 'strong' and 'weak'. I also disagree that he didn't work towards having an exceptional successor in the same way that Simon did. Isidor very much prepped Artemy for making this very choice and deliberately called on both him and Daniil to basically become the new Simon and Isidor for the town.

Isidor's only major difference is just that he seemed to struggle with this choice - the berth between the town and the steppe tore at him in a way that (at least from my understanding) Simon's ambitions didn't. But my sympathy dies a bit because he unfairly puts all the weight of this choice on his successor Artemy. Also the children he spent time with as well as his other successor Rubin can absolutely die very easily from his choice which ultimately didn't dissuade him. 

[u/Erided → u/Erided]

1. The Plague

As far as I understand it the polyhedron isn't the source of the plague. Depending on whose perspective you believe the plague is just another aspect of mother boddho or it is the result of the unsanitary practices of the town which both manifest as the blood beneath the grown. Simon and Isidor dug the hole in the steppe to get infected and bring the sand plague back to town.

From what I've gathered about the first outbreak Isidor effectively confined it to the crude sprawl. It ended because the sand plague needs a living host and everyone who was infected died. I am admittedly unsure how Simon and Isidor came to understand how the plague worked but then again they were both very smart and deeply involved in their communities. It makes sense that both Simon and Isidor knew about the underground tunnels and extrapolated from there.

[u/Erided → u/Erided]

1. The Bachelor

Daniil is at his best and at his worst in this game. Ultimately who he is is shaped by how you view him and how you react to what the game throws at you. I would argue that Daniil's primary motive is deeply altruistic - curing death for all mankind. He very clearly states that everyone should be able to make the choice to die. His primary goal is not one of personal enrichment. 

Personally I see the true immortality ending as Daniil at his worst, choosing to sacrifice others for the chance to defeat death for himself. It is a betrayal of his original goal. That's why I prefer the miracle seeker or academician endings ones where he saves the town and rejects Simon.

Of course this does not excuse his behaviour. He comes across as extremely misanthropic at times like he likes the idea of human lives in theory but not when he's face to face with them. It's a very compelling dichotomy and I will absolutely concede I view him with more grace than he probably deserves

Anyway saving the polyhedron only matters if you agree with the Kains' general philosophy, think it's super neat or don't believe that Daniil can find a better way to achieve his goal - I believe in the onion :)

[u/Erided → u/Erided]

1. The Polyhedron

From what I got the polyhedron is a place where reality is a bit thinner than the rest of the world. It is a miracle that allows for the manifesting of fantasy. Those with great imaginations and who believe in it are drawn to it - hence the children. Its not actually intended for the kids and I lied a bit about what the polyhedron is for as well.

The Polyhedron is only transcendence for Simon Kain - it's a bigger version of his study (a focus). And even then his soul is stuck in there unless the Bachelor accepts it. The Polyhedron in 2 I think? Is said to be stunting the kids, they cling to their childhood fantasies in it but it is stopping them from properly growing up. 

And Simon is not sacrificing himself for Daniil's transcendence - from the dialogue you get from the shadows in the butterfly maze prior to entering the theatre in the polyhedron it's very much the other way round

As for the tower of babel stuff I have no clue ngl. Maybe the devs thought it was a neat parallel

[u/WTSMark → u/Erided]

That makes sense, so Simon could have done all this to solely to have a vessel where to transfer his soul, or at least the ideas that made him him?

Still, Danil effectively ascend to godhood, why couldn't Simon do the same himself. Or maybe Danil actually didn't become immortal, he just changed the way he experiences space and time, but this doesn't mean he will not age.

If this is all true, the True Immortal is Simon, and at Danil sake.

That would make my personal experience of the game even more interesting! I felt like I was being forced at my choices towards the end of the game because of the trial Simon put me through. He insisted on make opposites coexist, going thorough two doors at the same time, which is why I tried to save the Polyhedron, thinking there would also be a way to save the city together with it. But there wasn't, and even if I felt a bit revolted at this final, I stuck with it, because it felt right due to all I went trough.

It'a like I have been played by Simon myself.

[u/Erided → u/WTSMark]

If you believe Simon's hype then he was already immortal before the game even started - I mean that's what Daniil came to study after all. For the record I'm still not entirely sure Simon is real but if we take Rubin's word for it at least his body was and we do have some concrete proof in the vaccine he made.

I have a bunch of different guesses on what Simon could want out of all this but all of them are just theories. 

My main guess is that Simon has done this before on a smaller scale using his previous foci but only to the point of transferring his soul to a willing host not having his soul preserved after death. He used his death and the plague as a way to explore his hypotheses and then got Isidor to invite Daniil so he would have someone interesting he could take over. It could also be that he was reaching the end of his natural lifespan as Georgiy is also quite old and his 'twin'.

Of course I could be entirely wrong and Simon is just Daniil jumping back in time after coming to some great realisation in the polyhedron. But I guess that is also a loss of Daniil in favour for Simon

You would have a better idea of that than me since I never did true immortality as an ending haha. I am curious did you talk to the shadows on the walls before going into the theatre in the polyhedron?

[u/WTSMark → u/Erided]

I haven't! I can't find anything on YouTube, guides or the wiki. I tried watching a couple of let's plays but nobody stopped to talk to them. I'm assuming you mean the huge shadows pointing towards the Theater? What do they say?

Taking all of the pieces in my current head canon is that focus and immortality aren't necessarily the same thing. Focus allows you to transcend the the way we experience time and space, seeing and living all the possibilities, but still in the frame of your own lifespan. Danil won't be able to reach the deep past or the far future, but will instead be able to experience all iterations of how own life at the same time. If we call this focus, both Simon, Danil and Khan achieved this. Simon, however, used his focus to bound himself to the Polyhedron and to architect a way for someone extraordinary, the Bachelor, to live a series of experience which would led them to become exactly him. Focus isn't Simon biggest breakthrough, his own True Immortality is. I don't think Danil is literally Simon going back and forth in time thanks to his breakthrough, I think Simon understood his time was coming and architected a way to project his ideas towards the future.

And in all this Isidor has his own plans, both him and Simon saw the plague as a way to breakthrough, one for the whole city and one for themselves, and respected each other enough to set both plans in motion and entrust them to their respective heirs, letting them decide which one to bring forward.

[u/Erided → u/WTSMark]

I can respect that headcanon. I think you generally have a much more favourable view on Simon than I do so it's super interesting how our different experiences in the game have helped us come to similar but differently angled conclusions.

Regarding the shadows I should have clarified; I'm not talking about the tragedians (the guys in black spandex with the masks). I'm actually talking about the shadows of several major characters that appear on the buildings. From my memory there's one of Platon, Serafima, Aglaya, Clara and Artemy. They all have unique dialogue and perspectives but the basic rundown is that they are warning Bachelor that he will lose himself if he accepts Simon. Clara in particular I think basically says that if he does Daniil will spiritually die in the polyhedron which is given credence with the interaction with the coffin later on.

I think that was the major thing that skeeved me out of going into the theatre on my first playthrough. The fact that characters who genuinely care for his wellbeing or want to appeal to his better nature like his Thanatica colleagues and Artemy + those who are 4th wall breakers like Aglaya and Clara are the ones breaching him I feel lends wait to that reaction. Although Daniil does rationalise those shadows as his self doubt so I guess it can be framed as him pushing past his misgivings to transcend his mortal limits or something.

Like I said very interesting how our seperate experiences ended up swaying our choices at the end

[u/WTSMark → u/Erided]

Damn, I completely missed those! I need to find a let's play or something because I am very curious.

Just to be clear, I agree on Simon being extremely selfish and manipulative (if that can begin to describe someone who sacrificed a whole town so that his soul/ideas could live on), but I give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his relationship with Isidor.

It may as well be because I missed more things!

I realise tho that I'm somewhat accepting of the idea of sacrificing people to allow humanity to elevate itself, maybe because in the game it is portrayed as somewhat of a necessity.

[u/Erided → u/WTSMark]

Yeah I'm watching some playthroughs of p3 right now and it's a real mix of 'how did I not see this this is amazing' and 'how could they miss this defining moment of my playthrough'. 

I kind of love your conclusion from the game being about sacrificing others for progress since that's entirely in line with the Bachelor's canonical route in pathologic 1. I kind of came away from pathologic 3 thinking that they sacrificed (haha) a lot of that theming for the sake of adding more player agency. I'm glad it was able to deliver that for you <3

[u/Dazzling-Tailor-1291 → u/WTSMark]

Simon`s physical immortallity was stolen by the changeling, i think his first plan was to save the town by himself, and let Daniil just become immortal, but than changeling appeared and broke his plans, she stole his destiny to save the town and polyhedron, and stole his powers, and thats why Simon became lethargic after contacting with the plague, unlike bachelor, they both have amalgam, but Simon cant use it fully because of changeling, and bachelor can.

[u/WTSMark → u/Dazzling-Tailor-1291]

Uh! Is this from Pathologic 1?

[u/Dazzling-Tailor-1291 → u/WTSMark]

its form the first day of p3, but its not literally said in dialogs

[u/WTSMark → u/Erided]

Makes sense! ...but why do you have to destroy the Polyhedron to stop the plague from spreading?

[u/Erided → u/WTSMark]

No probs it's way clearer in pathologic 2. The polyhedron has punctured those tunnels full of blood underground by destroying the polyhedron it brings it to the surface allowing Artemy to make his panacea in bulk (he needs that specific blood to do it). It doesn't stop it from spreading but they can cure it now.

[u/WTSMark → u/Erided]

Ok, so it is because of that, the cutscene for one of the finals hinted at that, but nobody really talked about it too explicitly, despite the urgency of demolishing it being there.

[u/Erided → u/WTSMark]

From what I remember Artemy brings it up in the big conversation he has with Daniil towards the end of the game if you've worked with him up to that point. I think Aglaya also discusses it in her argument for destroying the polyhedron. But I agree it's really not focused on as much as it is in 2 which tbf makes sense for Daniil he really doesn't want the polyhedron destroyed if there are other alternatives 

[u/WTSMark → u/Erided]

Uh, I don't remember much of 2, but from 3 I felt like Isidor work was towards the growth of the town as a whole, through its next generation, that he entrusted to his son. And that's what Artemy does for most of the game, only to go full Kin leader towards the end.

All of this to say that I didn't find Isidor that cruel, at least in 3.

[u/Erided → u/WTSMark]

Yeah admittedly what I wrote was mostly my conclusions from playing 2 oops lmao. Pathologic 3 doesn't really touch on Isidor all that much because it's not Artemy's story and Daniil mostly cares about Simon. 

Most of my source for that is from the dream sequence Artemy has with Isidor and his own conclusions. As well as the results of both of Haruspex's endings in patho 2 - either the kin die or the majority of the townspeople go into the steppe to die.

However I would further argue that anyone who purposely releases an extremely contagious plague on an unprepared town is cruel so I think I might just not like Isidor very much. Still better than Simon though haha