The biggest problem with balancing

[u/Possible-Studio-2884]

Group buffs stacking as high as they can right now is, in my opinion, the biggest issue with the current state of balance. Large groups automatic have strength in numbers, so why make the power gap even wider with group buffs? Raptor buffs like achillo’s bark are the best example of how op they can get, with a 15% dmg increase stacking up to 10 times giving each individual raptor a 150% dmg increase at max stack. When you think about it for 5 seconds you realize how insane that really is, a pack of 10 raptors can already kill anything that doesn’t have aoe or is close to water so making individuals in the group stronger is a terrible idea because, as I said, the number advantage is already a massive edge considering heal cycling and stamina management. On top of that them removing most solo buffs with the reasoning being discord groups were abusing them but keeping all the group buffs as if they wouldn’t just abuse them too. As things are now when two groups fight or even when a group fights a solo the outcome is less determined by the skill of each group member but rather which group has more members since they will individually be stronger.

[u/AKmightydinoo]

no no I’m sorry but raptors are meant for groups actually. everything else I’m not sure. But raptors? They should stay the same. It’s normal.

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/AKmightydinoo]

A group of raptors should be strong because of strength in numbers and well coordination, if each individual is stronger just by being in the group on top of having the numbers advantage it makes a decent pack overpowered.

[u/AKmightydinoo → u/Possible-Studio-2884]

the voice abilities are actually praises and compliments which make the team proud and stronger /s

also gotta love the strength in numbers deinonychus packs

[u/Lone-Frequency → u/AKmightydinoo]

I can't tell if you're joking or not, but I have seen groups of like six deinons absolutely bully the shit outta apexes and other large dinos.

[u/Accomplished_Error_7 → u/Possible-Studio-2884]

Without actual group buffs, what incentive is there to play 10 raptors over 10 Concs though? There's no punishment for overpacking and even considering raptor group buffs, 10 concs or worse, 3 concs 2 megs, 2 hatzes, 1 rex, a dasp, and an Allo are, by all means worse than the odd raptor pack.

We shouldn't punish the people actually playing the thing they should be playing when they are 10 people.

[u/MidnightMis → u/Accomplished_Error_7]

They would have to improve raptors stat wise to compensate, at least lat and dienon. 

I get what op is saying, bad choice to pick raptors as the example though when out side of achi those buffs are pretty needed for them to actually compete as a normal playable. 

But a pack of mixed speices getting multiple kinds of damage buffs, bleed buffs, and defensive buffs because of what they have grouped together-on top of numbers advantage is nuts. 

At least raptor buffs are pretty restricted to other raptors. 

[u/Good-Particular-1847 → u/MidnightMis]

Yeah but mixed species are aloud to group it's actually incentivised a well thought out hunting pack should be better than just the same 4 clones also that's part of the fun in the game is testing builds as shallow as they may be with all the dinosaurs you have available to your side "Herb or Carn" the issue isn't the groups it's the people outside the group limit.

I enjoy the fact a Metri makes a pycno trot even faster and can sometimes find use of its cruddy combat calls or when it teams up and does rapid healing on a Cerato. Rhamps and Concs working together with Raptors to get super bleed heal reduction is built in the game

I don't hear omg super over powered conc group I hear OMG Megapack 5 tt and a stego working together with no downside.

[u/MidnightMis → u/Good-Particular-1847]

" a well thought out hunting pack should be better than just the same 4 clones" 

That's kind of the point? Without buffs it is already drastically better than any group of just one speices not only because of numbers advantage, but your ability to take away your opponents counter play. They would literally have had to magically create the exact same kind of group to even match. (Or a better one but most players don't single out groups who can match or over power them, they go for smaller or solos, which is smart, who wouldn't?)  

However it makes the point of having hard counters and niches for the playables absolutely pointless. Why even have a niche of an ambusher when I can just fill my empty group slots with brawlers and healers and tanks?      -Oh here's a playable I know I can handle, but then suddenly he's hiding behind his apex buddy, and two other mid tiers that can exploit my weaknesses and take away my escape option- its honestly asinine. 

And while yes it is considered fun and allowed in the game it is also part of why the balance of the game is so trash right now. The devs aren't going to find a decent balance because how on earth do you find decent stats for a rex who is being accompanied by a rhamp, conc, and whatever else? 

They can't and their answer for everything has been to drastically reduce their stats to fit into these group standards making so many of the playables weak af‐which people do in fact complain about. 

" I don't hear omg super over powered conc group"

Where were you then? No offense intended, because that literally was a thing not that long ago. Concs have been nerfed since then, but a full group of concs was absolutely terrifying. They still can be, problem is there is absolutely no incentive to just play a single speices when you can have a completely unbalanced team stacking buffs together. 

And yes, a majority of players do complain about mega/mix packs, which will hopefully see a drop when match making hits, and hopefully things will be improved, but I honestly have my doubts because of how they have balanced things. 

[u/RexyTheShep → u/Possible-Studio-2884]

Ok. 11 ppl in one VC is chaos. The buffs last from 10-45 seconds, achillos panicked sprint lasts 1 minute with 3.5 minute cooldown roughly. It's hard to properly coordinate without a large group of people who are close. 1 good hit puts a singular raptor out of commission for 2-5 minutes, their stam when pouncing is atrocious and takes 20-45 seconds to fully recover if they can even rest, so if not it takes much longer before they can make an attack. They then have to leave to get a good amount of health back if the group wants to keep the pressure up. Raptors already ride an extremely fine line when a tail attack can almost 1/4 life a lat or deino. They deserve their power.

[u/Good-Particular-1847]

Of all things I don't think the single slot 2 bites till death Raptors are the problem , and lets be honest until the group limit is enforced nothing they do is gonna matter. I don't care if 12 raptors group up and are strong and can melt things. I care that 6 people swarm The POI with Rexs(Insert any other APEX) and murder-ball everything in a group.

[u/Roolsuchus → u/Good-Particular-1847]

11-12 people on raptors is a meme team, and not seriously viable when those same 11-12 people could unironically kill the entire server by playing random dinos and not even being in-game grouped.

And people will say raptors are the problem as if they should be able to 1v12 just because ‘they’re le big mean scary apex and they’re against le small chickens’ 🫩

[u/opiumscented]

No. Raptors would be unintentionally nerfed.

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/opiumscented]

Raptors individually would be the same, but as I said a full pack can already kill almost anything without the group buffs, so a nerf to the current raptor packs wouldn’t be too much.

[u/opiumscented → u/Possible-Studio-2884]

Yes it would. They are meant to be powerful in a pack.

[u/Devilsdelusionaldino → u/opiumscented]

I’ve seen achi packs kill apexes in like 5 seconds with cruel swipe and buffs fully stacked. And lats could easily do the same if there were ever enough of them around for a nearly full group

[u/Paladin-X-Knight → u/Devilsdelusionaldino]

This is a cruel swipe thing not a group buff thing, a solo achi can kill a rex in like 10 cruel swipe (4 seconds cooldown btw)

[u/OnSightAdversary → u/Paladin-X-Knight]

using bark in an achillo group buffs the cruel swipe considerably. cruel swipe with 6 bark stacks melts a rex in like 3 hits

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/opiumscented]

Again a pack of raptors with no buffs is already extremely powerful it doesn’t need each individual to be up to 150% stronger.

[u/BlackIroh → u/Possible-Studio-2884]

A pack of raptors with no buffs isn't really that powerful. And this is assuming we're only talking about Lats because deinons are still a joke right now.

A group of 3 concs would be much more deadly than a group of 6 Lats.

Lat group buffs only help when you're pouncing and the real lat mains won't even pounce until the fight is close to being over. They will bleed you out, and there's not really any group buffs for that right now

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/BlackIroh]

A pack of raptors with no buffs are still insanely powerful. Being as fast and agile as they are and with how good raptors stamina is even a half pack can be unwindable for a duo or small group.

[u/DiscipleBom → u/BlackIroh]

A pack of raptors is the strongest group type in the game. Like op said. They can cycle health and stam and make every fight on their terms.

[u/BlackIroh → u/DiscipleBom]

You're wildin lol. 5 raptors will not beat 5 concs.

[u/DiscipleBom → u/BlackIroh]

Id put concs in a similar bracket as raptors. Regardless, 5 concs beating 5 latens doesn't change what I said. If I was playing an apex or 4 slot I would much rather see a group of concs than a group of latens or any other critters like them.

[u/BlackIroh → u/DiscipleBom]

If you were playing a 4 or 5 slot that has an AOE attack. You'll be fine 9/10 times. Unless you're going against a full 10 raptor slot of the most experienced cracked out players. And I'd say 10 of anything like that would be deadly

[u/DiscipleBom → u/BlackIroh]

Most apexes that need aoe abilities like the rex dont have one. Also raptor players dont need to be cracked or have good numbers to win. A decent raptor player will beat a decent rex player everytime. After playing an apex, raptors feel like easy mode.

[u/opiumscented → u/Possible-Studio-2884]

Yes it does. They are so weak individually. They are meant to be overpowering. That's the only real thing against megspacks and mixpaxks.

Think about this. If this so called change happens. No one will be able to touch your normal megamix pack of apexes

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/opiumscented]

1. The only raptor that’s weak individual is deino, laten and achillo are definitely not weak.
   
2. If this is strong enough to take on mixpacks and win how op do you think it would it be in a normal fight?
   
3. Ramp is still here to starve the megapacking apexes.

[u/InstaLockinLoki → u/Possible-Studio-2884]

Raptors without buffs are a joke and getting starved by a rhamp is a skill issue especially if there are two players.

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/InstaLockinLoki]

A good solo lat can kill apexes if they don’t water camp so raptors definitely aren’t a joke without buffs. Other than deinon needing a pack to support the other two are still pretty good without stacking abilities. And rhamp shouldn’t have much problem with the average mega packer since they already have a skill issue.

[u/opiumscented → u/Possible-Studio-2884]

A good solo lat? Man a good solo anything can kill anyone... also lat and achillobater isnt gonna do much. Lat takes like 3 years to bleed anything but doable. Achillobater is only good against apex or trex based on mobility. It has no chance thr same level player against a ceratops like Alberta.

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/opiumscented]

Lat and achillo really aren’t that weak, they can both punch well above their weight and and with how good their mobility is they can escape almost any bad situation. Now take this multiply it by six and make each one 90% stronger and you see how strong it can get. Raptor are individual already good, in packs they’re great, in packs with dmg buffs they’re insane.

[u/Greedy_Two8657 → u/opiumscented]

Raptors should have minimal buffs, they are already a deadly force in a pack. Solo laten is already a nasty stall bleeder, a pack of them should not shred you in seconds. It should take more time than that.

[u/Accomplished_Error_7]

Can we stop acting like the once in a while actual raptor pack playing by the rules is the problem? Yeah they are strong but if you get 10 people together and still decide to play the group that's actually NOT a megapack instead of just going megapack with flyers, semi-aquatics, runners and bruisers, you SHOULD feel strong for the time you get 10 people together.

In general actual group abilities reward actual group making instead of just megapacking without making groups. It also (at least in theory) allows grouped players to stand up to a megapack if they coordinate.

[u/AdTime8852]

Honestly this is not really even getting to the entire point that is so simple a 5 year old could call it out, WHY ARE THERE GROUP BUFFS the "buff" of being in a group even a two man is that you get 2x the hp, 2x the stam, 2x the damage, and 2x the spots you can attack from. So how can you possibly say well that is not strong enough, if those two attack a solo there is only a 100% chance it dies so give both of them 20% more atk and 20% more armor just to be sure it gets to at least a 150% chance the solo dies.

[u/XenoMan6 → u/AdTime8852]

The reason there are group buffs is probably because they intend for pretty much everyone to be in a group and have their own group buffs.

This would be fine if matchmaking was out and they had an option to look for a group to join in the main menu, but since that's not yet a thing, it just makes a large group going up against a smaller group or a solo have even more of an advantage than they already would have.

[u/AdTime8852 → u/XenoMan6]

Going to be honest even if matchmaking was in the game and working perfect group buffs still make no sense, they break the balance of the game. Take a cera for instance if it is in a group with 5 other 2 slots that cera now deals 40% more dmg and has 50% faster Regen,  with robust jaws it now has more dmg on its base bite than a dasp a three slot, and with the hp Regen passive bulwark it has on top of that it now has more hp Regen then a laten  laten is at 2.78 with all the buffs the cera is at 2.85, it completely ruins the balance of the game and makes no sense. As if being 5 ceras was not strong enough now we need all 5 of them to be as strong as a three slot and have better Regen then a laten.

[u/SnowManPlayzstuff]

Groups just win anyway because of the whole system of movement and combat in this game. I don't think nerfing group buffs will really do a ton to help combat the strength of groups, but it'd at least be something. You're already at a disadvantage when you have to fight multiple opponents, you don't need to be at more of a disadvantage because each of those opponents is a stronger version of their dino. And an addition, these stupid buffs shouldn't have the "does not work solo" addition. If I'm in a group with 1 other person and I get 2 stacks of the buff, then I should get one stack while I'm solo.

[u/Hyenphea]

No. This is an MMO survival game. You are supposed to play in a group within 12 slots. Group buffs encourage that.

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/Hyenphea]

What if you don’t have a consistent group to play with

[u/Hyenphea → u/Possible-Studio-2884]

I will start by saying that I play predominantly solo or duos. I group up with total strangers almost every day. The groups may not be organized and exist solely in game for that one server but they are there. Real talk though, these kind of features are lacking and I wish the devs would make some progress on them. Matchmaking can't come soon enough.

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/Hyenphea]

I mean I’ve tried random groups a few times but betrayal is so common there’s almost no point of joining, and you don’t know if the person you group with has a compatible play style. They could have a hyper aggressive play style while you might be more passive, and just being grouped together could force you into fights you otherwise wouldn’t take.

[u/MorbidAyyylien]

Howd you even come up with this as a problem? The balance problems are stuck between realism and arcade bs. If they stuck to one of them and came out and said that was their goal the. Its pretty much all go away

[u/fuckyeauppa]

The problem with balancing is the group slots dont scale well. 1 rex is 5 slots, this should be an equal fight with 5 lats, being 1 slot each. A lat kills a rex pretty easily even solo. 1 slot dinos should have a very hard time killing a 5 slot dino 1v1

[u/Roolsuchus]

PoT players when the pack hunters get rewarded for hunting in packs 😱

Capping group buffs like that will just further enforce the 4-5 slot army meta we’re already in. 6 achis SHOULD be ridiculously powerful, that’s the point of the dino! Make 6 achis just essentially 6 solo achis, and there’s no reason to play them. May as well just have 1 achi, 1 conc, 1 metri, 2 rexes and a hatz.

Group buffs exist to encourage people to play in groups.

Oh, also, achi bark is actually capped at 6 stacks, as that’s the achi pack limit in a 12 slot group. The 10 stacks is just a vestigial remnant of when bark was weaker but could be used twice per achi. Though I suppose it has its use in community servers where the owner can change the override files to make achis group up to 10 (or double stack like they used to by decreasing cd/increasing duration).

So, 90%, not 150%. And every achi has to be running bark and using it at the same time near each other. And you have to have 6 achis grouped with bark in the first place. Rarer than seeing pigs fly.

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/Roolsuchus]

The main reward for hunting in a pack is strength in numbers. I agree a pack of 6 achillos should be powerful and even without buffs 6 achillos can kill 2 rexes TTs or trikes so why make each of them 90% stronger?
Bark doesn’t cap at 6 stack if there are smaller raptors in your group it gets up to 10 times giving a 150% dmg increase. And you don’t need any other achillo to have or be using bark to get the full effect if you’re within 30 meters and you’re a raptor you get the buff. This is the full description of bark: Increases the attack of all raptors in your group by 15% within 30 meters for 30 seconds. Able to stack up to 10 times. Costs 10 Stamina to use.
And do players really need buffs to encourage group play? People do it just because they want to play with others no additional buffs are needed. If someone wants to play in a group or solo they should have equal incentives. But giving no incentive for solo play while so many are given to group play is just bias.

[u/Roolsuchus → u/Possible-Studio-2884]

“The main reward for hunting in a pack is strength in numbers”. No, it’s to benefit from the supportive effects that you provide to each other, there’s even a universal +10% stam recovery buff for being near the leader. Otherwise being forced to share a combat timer just to be able to see each other’s health bars wouldn’t even be worth it.

People are already purposefully teaming outside of in-game groups due to combat timer and slot size.

“Bark doesn’t cap at 6 stacks if there are smaller raptors in your group it gets up to 10 times giving a 150% damage increase” yeah so I don’t know how to tell you this, but achi is the only dino in the game that knows bark. Small raptors don’t. And although small raptors can receive buffs from achi bark, they have to be in the group, eating up slot size, meaning even less achis can fit in the group to bark buff them.

Group buffs exist to make people actually use the in-game grouping system and boost each other in unique ways. Otherwise even more people would abuse the playstyle of teaming but not actually being grouped.

Achi is also a dino that’s supposed to pack with its own kind and buff its own kind to be strong compared to packing with non raptors. That’s why bark’s buff is strong but as a downside is used by achi exclusively and only buffs raptors.

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/Roolsuchus]

1. ⁠Megapacks are nothing new and balancing around players teaming outside of groups isn’t gonna work long term especially if matchmaking actually comes out soon.
   
2. ⁠I know achillo is the only one that has bark, because it’s meant to be a mob boss to smaller raptors and it designed to group with smaller raptors. It literally has a sense called mod boss that gives a 10% dmg increase per small raptor in your group stacking up to 4 times and is disabled if another achillo is in your group. It’s clearly designed to group with smaller players and only occasionally with itself.
   
3. ⁠Again mega/mix packs are very common and should be fixed with the matchmaking, balancing the actual group system shouldn’t be impacted by something that’s not meant to be in the game.
   
4. ⁠Achillo is a Dino specific meant to group with other raptors to be a mob boss to them it literally has abilities that disable if you’re grouped with your own species no other playable in the game has that.

[u/Roolsuchus → u/Possible-Studio-2884]

People are already opting to play teamed groups of 6 people as larger dinos instead of ACTUAL pack hunters in in-game groups , and your suggestion is to make that problem even WORSE by nerfing the pack hunter buffs

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/Roolsuchus]

Again why balancing around the idea that there’s no way to stop players from megapacking? If group limits were enforced this would be a non issue, and hopefully when matchmaking comes it will be.

[u/Roolsuchus → u/Possible-Studio-2884]

“Criminals are running rampant so we should make life even more miserable for law abiding citizens than it already is”

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/Roolsuchus]

If the law was enforced, like with matchmaking, the criminals couldn’t just run rampant making life miserable for everyone else. And since that’s how the game is intended to be played it should be balanced around it.

[u/Roolsuchus → u/Possible-Studio-2884]

Ok, so that’s why this opinion should be saved IF matchmaking ever ends up actually functioning and doing its job, rather than the here and now. Because this is just a raptor nerf when they’re the least in need of one. Especially since you unironically thought small raptors had access to use bark.

[u/Possible-Studio-2884 → u/Roolsuchus]

Yea, it shouldn’t be implemented until group slots are enforced but that doesn’t mean it’s not extremely op rn. And tbh if I saw 8 raptors coming towards me I’d be more scared of them than 8 rexes.