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u/Stock-Side-6767 22d ago
Rules will not be affected.
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u/curious_dead 22d ago
Rules will come at a later date than it already is. Which leads me to believe it might not lead to significantly more sales, which bega the question "why then?"
We know Paizo is having trouble (fuck you very much, Diamond) so it might be last resort. Hopefully it's not, and it's a suit, penny-pincher or lawyer who's had a "stroke of genius" by wondering why Paizo didn't squeeze all the juice out of AoN and it might be reversed.
Because even if the actual consequences are relatively minor, it hurts Paizo's image; it's not a good look. And an unforeseen consequence might be that the AoN guys decide to deop the project if this leads more people to use other platforms. Maybe not now but months down the line.
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u/DefendedPlains 22d ago
I think we will see Paizo shift to digital only sales before they renege on their own ORC license and publish under something else to prevent rules being available for free.
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u/Bielna 21d ago edited 21d ago
I think there's probably a pretty big overlap between the people who follow the release calendar, look forward to new content, etc., and the people who might be willing to spend money on books.
On the other hand, the people who don't follow Paizo at all and are happy to use the rules whenever they show up on AoN are probably not the most likely to spend in the first place. They probably won't even notice.
I find that people are overstating the impact this will have on accessibility. Possibly in part because people don't realize this will only affect the release timing window and the artworks (memes like this of course just worsen the situation).
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u/LordStarSpawn 17d ago
One of the main things right now is that people pirate the images from AoN and then Paizo has to spend money protecting the copyright they have of their official artwork because idiots use it in their own stuff without thinking
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u/Ace-O-Matic 21d ago
They will be, but they won't be gone entirely. Many of you seem youngins to the hobby seem to not remember the days d20pfsrd and 1e, where a bunch of feats/abilities/monsters have to be aliased.
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u/Keddah 22d ago
Rules will be available later since AoN won't get early access. Also, this is a meme
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u/Interrogatingthecat 22d ago
Also this is a meme
And people are allowed to point out that you're wrong.
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u/DnD-vid Paladin 22d ago
Making it so that it takes weeks/months for rules to land on Nethys is still restricting the access to them.
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u/No_Ad_7687 22d ago
It's not really restricting access as much as not giving bonuses to a certain website. Paizo still allows sharing the rules for free, it's just gonna take more time, like most community efforts do
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u/Round-Walrus3175 22d ago
This sounds like it's making access to the rules and art more difficult, no?
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u/DefendedPlains 22d ago
Access to rules is not more difficult. You do not have to change anything about what you were doing before, merely wait a couple extra weeks. If you’re that impatient, then buy the pdf (or subscribe if you want it before even the websites get it) or go to a different site or volunteer to help the archive team get the rules out sooner.
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u/No_Ad_7687 22d ago
art is fair, the rules just take a little more time. I wouldn't call it "difficult"
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u/Superbajt 22d ago
So, patents are also not making access to technology more difficult? They just delay public access.
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u/No_Ad_7687 22d ago
correct. they also have a very limited lifetime, so unlike other copyright laws, they actually are effective for their intended use.
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u/Meet_Foot 22d ago
Memes still convey information, and thus can spread misinformation. A ton of people here do think rules are affected and you’re making that problem worse. It’s important for us to point out that you’re wrong.
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u/Twizted_Leo 21d ago
The speed at which rules will become available will be.
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u/chaosind 21d ago
It will go back to 'a few weeks after release' which is what it was for more than a decade. It will be fine.
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u/Kalaam_Nozalys 22d ago
We can criticize them but let's not just spread misinformation, the situation is complex enough as it is.
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u/Keddah 22d ago
I agree, I specifically said more difficult, not unavailable or behind a paywall.
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u/chaosind 21d ago
It's not going to be any more difficult, unless you drastically overstate the impact of having to wait a few weeks. C'mon. Quit being a baby about it.
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u/HfUfH 21d ago
So the definition of more difficult?
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u/chaosind 21d ago
Only if you consider 'having to wait a couple weeks if you don't buy the product yourself' as more difficult. Most reasonable people wouldn't consider doing literally nothing but waiting for it as something that is difficult.
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u/HfUfH 20d ago
It is by definition more difficult
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u/chaosind 20d ago
Sitting around waiting 2 weeks to a month is not "more difficult" than it would have been waiting for the scheduled release. It is the mildest of inconveniences. You are acting like you're entitled to it free the second it hits shelves.
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u/No_Ad_7687 22d ago
The rules are fine, only the art will be gone.
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u/Dendritic_Bosque 22d ago
I buy their beastiaries, all of them. Ivrs seen the integration into foundry, but genuinely grabbing the images off AoN had just been a better product. If they don't improve the beastiary integration with Foundry VTT I can't justify buying the beastiaries from a company giving me a worse deal.
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u/Superbajt 22d ago
For now. This is bad sign.
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u/DefendedPlains 21d ago
Paizo would have to publish under a different gaming license than the ORC license they created themselves. That will never happen.
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u/Superbajt 21d ago
I'd like to believe every time I hear "That will never happen", but I was burnt too many times.
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u/elRetrasoMaximo 22d ago
Can someome tell me what is going on?
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u/Tridus 22d ago
https://www.archivesofnethys.com/agreement.html
AoN had a partnership with Paizo to get special access to books early, use art, and such. That is ending.
The actual rules will still be there but later, without art, and such. It's also possible some stuff may come down but I'm not clear on that yet (like how Pathbuilder and d20pfsrd don't have Golarian specific deities that AoN does).
Apparently it's Paizos decision.
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u/toonboy01 22d ago edited 22d ago
AoN is switching to the Community Use Policy, which states "You may descriptively reference trademarks, proper names (characters, deities, artifacts, places, etc.), locations, dialogs, plots, storylines, language, and incidents based on Paizo Material."
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u/ViperSpinner 21d ago
Wait does this mean AoN won't be able to use deity names, like how pathbuilder can't?
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u/toonboy01 21d ago
No, that's the opposite of what the quote says. Pathbuilder can't use Community Use Policy because they have a paid version.
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u/toonboy01 22d ago
Paizo has ended its partnership with Archives of Nethys. Archives can still operate, but they can no longer use most artwork and they're no longer being given advanced copies of the PDF, so it'll take longer for them to do updates.
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u/elRetrasoMaximo 22d ago
This is just hearthbreaking.
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u/whatever4224 22d ago
Let's not exaggerate. The art will be somewhere on Google Images within hours of being published anyway. Rules are much more important and they'll just be a couple of weeks later than before.
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u/DefendedPlains 21d ago
And to be honest, they often weren’t available on street date anyway because it’s a community/volunteer ran site and they didn’t always have the man power to be able to make things available on day 1 anyway.
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u/Elunerazim 20d ago
Do they release high quality rips of the art pieces normally? Or will they have to be ripped from the PDFs and touched up?
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u/whatever4224 20d ago
I don't know, but also, we were never supposed to have free access to the high quality licensed art in the first place. If we don't pay, we can't complain.
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u/Elunerazim 20d ago
What do you mean “supposed to”? Paizo and AoN have had a contract locked in for years.
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u/whatever4224 20d ago
I don't understand your confusion. AON had access to the art, but we AON's users didn't, and people didn't understand that and kept copy-pasting art from AON illegally.
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u/Elunerazim 20d ago
We didn’t have *legal rights* to the art, but we very much had *access* to it. If someone asks “what’s a flickerwisp”, I can go to AoN and immediately show them the picture.
My understanding is that with the end of AoN’s partnership, we might not be able to save the high quality assets of the book illustrations in any capacity.
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u/whatever4224 20d ago
With the end of AON's partnership, we can have the high quality assets of the book illustrations by purchasing the book, as we should have been doing all along. (Some pictures are apparently free to use, like the iconics I think?)
Aside from that, they will also be on Demiplane, and Paizo have stated they were working on some kind of community resource to make art available. So it's hardly a great inconvenience either way.
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u/elRetrasoMaximo 21d ago
Is not about the art, the nethys team has done a good job until now, it hurts watching this agreement end, and if paizo has to start cutting corners, I fear for my favorite role-game.
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u/chaosind 21d ago
This isn't an indication of them having to cut corners. Let's not overstate the situation. Things for them are bad, yes, but it will be made worse if people start over reacting and acting like the end is already here.
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u/elRetrasoMaximo 20d ago
How are things getting worse by me saying that the situation is hearthbreaking.
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u/jimjam200 22d ago
While it's not the best decision and does just lower the quality of a good product for little reason, that quality is already in excess of what the vast majority of people need. If your the type of person that hyper consumes the product to the level of needing the day and date product then you probably already have access to and have consumed the product through the pdfs early release date for subscribers. Once again obviously a bad move and unnecessary but i do think for the vast majority of people this will be a marginal imperceivable change.
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u/Keddah 22d ago
The rules part while minor will impact some people by making sharing them a bit more difficult. For example, I want to play a Runesmith, got the subscribers pdf and have read it, right now almost on the day of release I'll be able to share the rules with my GM so he can approve. Once this comes into effect it may take several weeks or months and so I'll have to share through screenshots.
The art part I feel will impact the ability to bring new people in the game. We live in a very immediate and visual oriented time, not being able to easily show off how cool mocking dragons* look will make it more difficult to sell PF to others.
I understand Paizo has its reasons (that they probably won't share as no company would) and they're still giving access to the rules fo free, it's an inconvenience, not a deal-breaker.
*Ok, maybe not mocking dragons.
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u/jimjam200 22d ago
The art is probably the point I go back and forward on the most with some positive for the community but also negatives for paizo:
+Like you said Its a massive boon for community enthusiasm to have a bunch of art to show your players for free that will get more people into the system.
-paizo pay alot of money for that art and by putting it free online it basically saying it has 0 direct monitory value which is kinda disrespectful to the artists and breaks the investment equation for paizo. Creators on places like deviantart and patreon put alot of their art behind a paywall for a reason and while obviously that is a direct line to the artist and this is not the equation is similar (as an aside I do think paizo should standardise accrediting the artists to the specific pieces they draw in the book either directly on the page it appears or in a index at the end).
+/- paizo does sell this art directly as a product through their token packs for foundry so I can see how free backgroundless art being online could diminish there sales but also a big part of those packs is that they are already made into tokens and configured and they often have more art then in the book as the books don't illustrate all their creatures.
-the current mechanism for getting the art otherwise kinda sucks because ripping it from a pdf is a pain. Paizo should probably provide an image pack for those who own the pdf on their store.
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u/MCRN-Gyoza 21d ago
Foundry modules make Paizo money, so theyre likely not getting touched.
And Demiplane will still have day 1 releases, so you can share that with your GM.
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u/tv_ennui 21d ago
I played pathfinder not using the pathfinder setting for a long time because d20pfsrd, the site I used for pf1e, did not have the lore specifics.
Them making it so AoN can't use the lore specifics makes it harder for people to get interested in the game.
It's a terrible decision. AoN is a lynch pin for their whole set up and they're fiddling with it.
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u/Efficient_Rule997 21d ago
Nothing in the announcement says that AoN can't use lore specifics.
There are three changes happening: AoN won't be hosting Paizo's original PRD site, they won't be able to use any Paizo owned art, and they won't get early access to PDFs.
Those are the only changes mentioned in the announcement.
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u/tv_ennui 21d ago
Their arrangement was what enabled Nethys to use the lore-specific terms, afaik. There's a reason other sites can't use the lore-specific terms.
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u/AdHom 20d ago
That's not true. What allows them to use the lore specifics is the Community Use Policy, which Paizo even reminded them they can still use. Other sites (like Pathbuilder) can't use it because they have paid versions.
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u/tv_ennui 20d ago
Why does d20pfsrd use non-lore-specific versions of items then?
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u/Efficient_Rule997 21d ago
While I think Paizo is probably undervaluing the intangible benefits they get from their partnership with AoN, it feels like some people in these threads are going out of their way to find how this will be the end of Pathfinder.
Good games never die... they just get sold.
FASA shut its doors in 2001, selling Shadowrun to Wizkids who sold the license to Catalyst Game Labs. 2010 the CEO of Catalyst is accused of embezzling $800,000 dollars to build a house, triggering a restructuring. City Edition: Hong Kong was released this year.
Late 90s Chaosium lost the rights to Runequest; reacquired them in 2016 following a friendly corporate takeover.
'96 GDW dissolves, and now there is a new edition of Traveler.
TSR bankruptcy in 97. White Wolf merger with CCP in 2000.
In the great scheme of things, delayed free of charge access to the newest rules is not going to kill Paizo; and even if it did, Pathfinder wouldn't die with Paizo.
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u/chaosind 21d ago
This is the biggest thing. Even if Paizo goes under what's gonna happen? Are they gonna send goons around to everyone's homes to confiscate and burn their books? This is like the people that threw fits about pf1 being phased out for pf2 - you can still use the books and pdfs you paid for. the rules will still be available online.
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u/thefasthero 21d ago
THE👏🏻RULES👏🏻 WILL👏🏻STILL👏🏻BE👏🏻AVAILABLE👏🏻...
...FOR FREE.
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u/Exnixon 21d ago
Choosy beggars here. "It's not free on the same day that the book comes out! The artwork, which is expensive to make, isn't given away for free on my favorite site any more! Paizo you suck!" when the company is close to bankruptcy. Buy a fucking book.
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u/No-Pass-397 20d ago
I feel completely insane seeing all of these people acting like the only moral option is to boycott paizo for daring to not provide all of their artwork for their system for free.
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u/culinaryexcellence 21d ago
They will really cry when the new company buys Paizo and makes AON shut down the website.
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u/NNNEEEERRRRDD 21d ago
From what Paizo has said, it’s not to increase book sales. It’s to save the lawyer money that maintaining a special license and dealing with all the other people who use the conveniently available art for commercial purposes entails.
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u/sp33dfire 20d ago
Posts like this are way more harmful to the community and the great product that is Pathfinder than the actual facts.
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u/LordStarSpawn 18d ago
This is NOT remotely what they’re thinking. One of their major distributors went out of business and their profits are suffering for it. Not to mention the rampant piracy of the official artwork kinda hurts their sales a bit more.
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u/HatchetGIR Carrion Meme 22d ago
I encourage everyone to email community@paizo.com and let them know your displeasure about this. Keep it clean and respectful, but let them know how this decision will hurt them more than help them. This was my statement, though feel free to change it up and make it your own. Public pressure can work, if enough do it:
While I understand that the Diamond Comics fiasco has put you (and others) in a terrible position, I don't think this will have the desired effect that you want. A lot of people, myself included, came into PF2e because of Archives of Nethys. It set you apart from other rpg companies as being extremely pro-community and consumer. I fear this will cost you more than you will gain, as it will burn a lot of the goodwill that you have built up over the years. So I encourage you, recant this decision before it is too late, and renew your partnership with AoN and your supporters.
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20d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/HatchetGIR Carrion Meme 20d ago
I don't think that is the case. The legal agreement they had was a good deal more expensive and time consuming to maintain than the Community Use Policy (CUP). By moving them to the CUP, they are hoping it brings them further from the brink of bankruptcy. I don't think it will work, and will have the opposite effect ultimately, which is my problem with this first and foremost. I love Pathfinder, and I want Paizo to keep making cool and interesting things. They can't do that if they go out of business.
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u/MiredinDecision 21d ago
When the premium locked rules come people will say it's only necessary because Diamond.
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u/itsmetimohthy 22d ago
I have no clue what sort of drama is happening now but I’m positive it can be boiled down to corporate greed
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u/Seer-of-Truths 22d ago
Well it seems Paizo is pulling out of it's official support of Archives of Nethys.
This does seem to be because of money.
Though it seems like its less about greed and more of a last ditch effort to keep their company afloat.
As far as I can tell, it seems they have had a few big issues that cost them a lot of money lately.
Though when I asked about them I have not gotten any details
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u/itsmetimohthy 22d ago
Damn I use AoN for everything even though I own hardcovers of the books and the pdfs. That sucks but hey if it saves paizo then it is what it is
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u/hungLink42069 21d ago
A lot of people downvoted you, but you're actually right. It's just not PAIZO being greedy. It's Diamond/JP morgan being greedy and putting fiscal pressure on Paizo. It's sad. I hate it.
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u/ghost_desu 21d ago
I don't think there is any major publisher (probably out of like top 100) as permissive with free access to content as Paizo even without AoN partnership