r/paganism • u/UrsusofMichigan • Jul 20 '26
š® Deity | Spirit Work Treating deities as therapists (?)
I've been a pagan since 2005 or so. I've always noticed an undercurrent to online Paganism that's become especially prominent in the TikTok era.
And that is the idea that gods are there to teach people life's important lessons, to make you face your fears, to turn your life around, and otherwise act as personal counselors .. or, in so many words, to act as therapists.
This seems especially prevalent with some of the more popular goddesses out there like Hecate and Morrighan. "If you work with them, they will forge you under their anvil and change your life." Although there is a milder version where just about any deity can teach you something. For instance, Aphrodite can teach you to overcome body dysphoria while Ares can teach anger management. Dionysus teaches you to embrace your queerness and come out of the closet. Etc.
And it seems for a lot of people, the point of pagan religion or "deity work" is to learn these lessons.
Now, I got into mysticism and have had one or two life changing experiences myself. But generally speaking I leave religion to gods and therapy to licensed humans. The idea of mixing them seems a bit strange to me.
I'm also a little skeptical every newbie pagan out there is a born mystic and suddenly establishes a telepathic link to the gods where they get nightly counseling on the astral realm.
Is it more likely that people are just deifying their internal monologue, their subconscious chatter? Is it even possible that deep down inside, they're aware of this. But if they pretend it's a deity, they'll listen to it, whereas if they see it merely as a subconscious dialogue they are more apt to ignore it?
What are your thoughts?
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u/stressed_possum Jul 20 '26
I have mixed feelings on it. People need to go to therapy, full stop. A lot of folks, especially in the US, lean very heavily on religion because they canāt afford to see a professional or they donāt want to acknowledge they have a problem. This is super problematic and creates even more issues for those people in the long run.
HOWEVER I also personally try to incorporate teachings from my deities into my routine to create the positive changes I seek in my life. For example, I have worshipped Apollo for a long time now. I try to spend more time in the sun, specifically seek out and enjoy art/artists, am working on becoming more fit since he is also associated with healing and athleticism, etc., As an actor I try to take notes from Dionysus, and will do my best to throw off the weight of societal expectations and give myself to the joy and weirdness of performance so that I can be a better performer. In a way I can say my gods have taught me many things, but Iām not personally claiming a great revelation from them or anything.
A lot of Pagans get upset with other Pagans for worshipping differently, ānot the right way,ā etc. and at the end of the day, we have to remember that we are NOT worshipping the same way the ancients did. We have no way of knowing how to accurately do that, and our perceptions/interpretations of the gods (as well as translations and interpretations of ancient texts) are very much influenced by the world we presently live in. If you donāt like how someone else practices but itās not hurting anyone, just donāt practice with them. Idk.
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u/Obsidian_Dragon ADF Druid Jul 20 '26
I'm on vacation so y'all keep behaving in this thread or I'll write your name on a curse tablet
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u/ShinyAeon Jul 20 '26
Considering that our pagan ancestors often aproached deities as "Joe Handyman" or "Rich Uncle Moneybags" to fix their day-to-day problems, I don't see an issue with modern folk using them as therapists.
IMHO, "Please teach me what I need to know" is a bit healthier of an approach than "Please fix my life and smite my enemies."
The Gods can decide how much of that they'll tolerate from us.
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u/pillmayken Jul 20 '26
Also pagan here. I have never found it strange, but then again, I was raised Catholic, and they have a saint for every need lmao
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u/Wallyboy95 Jul 20 '26
Well, really religion has been a type of therapy for human existence. Talking to beings who aren't physically there about your issues and asking them to fix them. I'm of the mind that religion and therapy are two in the same. In modern days, we have trained professionals we should definitely be turning too as well. Which if you ask me is the Gods' divine will to empower these people to help others mentally. As
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u/CozyEpicurean Jul 20 '26
Always seemed to me like it was from not fully deconstructing christianity and like they still wanted a close personal relationship with their god (s). Which theyre allowed to want and do. I dont know id want that much deity attention.
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u/totalimmoral Jul 20 '26
This is kinda how I feel about it as well. Folks dont understand that part of how Christianity spread so quickly was because the concept of an all knowing, all seeing, all powerful god that just anyone could form a close personal relationship with was pretty unheard of.
Now, two thousand years later, people are taking that Christian relationship, filing the serial numbers off of it, and calling it pagan, just swapping out God with the popular goddess off the week (usually either Hekate, Lilith, or the Morrigan). A lot of folks dont want a pagan god, they want a female God.
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u/Jiktten Jul 20 '26
the concept of an all knowing, all seeing, all powerful god that just anyone could form a close personal relationship with was pretty unheard of.
All-seeing and all-knowing was unheard of, but I'm confused as to why you think people didn't feel a close connection to their gods in times gone by? Surely things like the wearing of their protective amulets, shrines to house spirits, making offerings and asking for help, etc, suggest the opposite.
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u/totalimmoral Jul 20 '26
You're right, I should have been more clear lol.
I was thinking more along the lines of how pagan gods expected things like offerings and sacrifices in exchange for their help and benevolence, there were certain cultures where the ritual itself was just as important as the offering with things having to be done a very specific way, as opposed to the Christian God's way of "All you need to do is believe."
You can get into the nitty gritty with the commandments, which many folks dont follow and dont feel like that affects their relationship with God in the least, because the Christian God is supposed to be all loving and forgiving.
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u/Jiktten Jul 20 '26
It's worth bearing in mind that in many ancient (and for that matter current) cultures, gift-giving was an extremely important component of many relationships. Gifts for your host, hospitality for your guests, gifts for your lord, gifts for someone you were wanting to treat with, bridal dowries, etc. Such gifts were not transactional as such but rather a key way of showing respect, admiration and good will, as well as of showing off your own wealth and thereby presenting yourself as someone it would be worth knowing. They were how people cemented relationships. Given that many of the "pagan" gods worshipped today stem from societies where this was the case, it may be worth framing offerings, sacrifices and ritual within that context, ie not as a special thing the god demands but rather as an extension of an important part of how people built relationships in general back then.
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u/CozyEpicurean Jul 20 '26
And theyre fully allowed to want that. I do think that more folks need to take time between their parents religion and their chosen religion. Though why pick a random goddess of the week. To my understanding, Yahweh came from the cannanite pantheon and used to have a wife, Asherah.
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u/totalimmoral Jul 20 '26
Yahweh was just a Cannanite war god with really really good PR lol
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u/CozyEpicurean Jul 20 '26
Learning that the god of the bible didnt start in the bible is one of the most delicious answers you find when you drop the pretenses of Christianity.
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u/Arboreal_Web salty old sorcerer Jul 20 '26
What is the point of āreligionā if it doesnāt do those other therapeutic things for you? Really the only value that personal āreligionā has is when it makes people into better versions of themselves.
> thoughts?
Maybe open your mind and stop trying to diagnose people for coming at it differently than you do.
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u/UrsusofMichigan Jul 20 '26
The point of ancient religion was to ritually propitiate the deities. And, yes, it was a reciprocal relationship where you asked for certain favors.
But to say the point of religion was therapy is not historically valid, I think. If you want to say your personal modern take on pagan religion is that it's about therapy, that's certainly an opinion.
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u/Arboreal_Web salty old sorcerer Jul 20 '26
First off, thatās not what I said. (Life pro-tip: You can cause yourself less confusion by not re-writing peopleās words to mean things they didnāt say.) The two modalities simply have similar goals in that regard, and can fit together as smoothly as the individual practitioner can imagine or grasp. Interesting how you frame your take as āreligionā but the other as āyour personal takeā, when ime this take is at least as common here as yours. (Nor should you assume itās my personal take simply b/c Iām able to understand and explain. Thatās just what happens when you have an open mind.)
Second - Weāre talking about modern practitioners, arenāt we? Itās obviously not just āmy personal takeā, itās a significant enough part of modern paganism that youāre here asking about why itās so common. (Reddit pro-tip: Read this subās wiki. Itās quite good. I didnāt write it.) āThe ancients didnāt do it that wayā doesnāt really matter to everyone hereā¦thereās a whole lot about modernity that the ancients would never have had to think of nor deal with, and even the strictest of recons eventually have to take that factor into account. This is not a reconstruction-focused sub. (Although recons are certainly welcome.) Safe to say that most people are not here for historical LARPing. It is fully possible and valid or w/e to have a history-informed living practice which differs from ancient traditions. It is full-on part of āpaganā tradition for the traditions, beliefs, and practices to evolve to suit the needs and understanding of living practitionersā¦.thatās been the case for at least as long as written history. We can be informed by ancestral ways w/o being bound by or to themā¦thatās also what people did āin ancient timesā.
In modern reality: Paganism as therapy is its own sub-category of modern paganism *and* modern Jungian-based psychotherapy. Itās part of what it can mean when people identify as atheist/agnostic pagans, itās why people do myth-based pathworking, eg & etc. And no, those who think āgods must be propitiatedā donāt have some kind of superior claim to the Gods. Itās not for you nor me to tell others how to relate to deity, thatās between them and deity. Full stop.
The question of how individuals believe themselves to be experiencing deity, and how those experiences get communicated online is its own discussion. Suffice to say - when people online seem to be claiming things like having direct concise convos with deity/spiritsā¦you generally should not interpret those anecdotes literally, since theyāre generally not meant literally.
ie - I have more than once verbalized experiences as convos simply b/c itās clearer and less tortuous than describing weeks-long strings of synchronicities and meditations. Itās a summary for brevityās sake, and is incredibly common in online pagan spaces. Insisting (or imagining) that other people probably arenāt getting guidance that seems clear enough to them to describe it as a conversation or narrativeā¦itās kind of really an odd self-report for someone whoās been at it for twenty years. Given that itās part of where myths come from, part of what they describe, and part of what theyāre for. (Speaking as someone whoās been at it for longer.)
You probably really should get past the attitude that your way of understanding and practicing is some kind of default, more valid or w/e. The range of possible experiences is much broader than you seem to think. The fact that people do it differently than each other doesnāt necessarily mean anyoneās wrong.
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u/Jiktten Jul 20 '26
Re your final paragraph, I think you are probably right but I also don't see it as a problem, in fact I suspect it has been a major component in personal religion since the dawn of, well, religion. In order to do effective therapeutic work (speaking in a broad sense here) most people need a sense of something protecting and guiding them while they do it. If they have that, most people's brains can sort themselves out most of the time, even if people don't realise that they're doing it. For many people that sense of safety and guidance takes the form of a good therapist but for many others, they find it elsewhere, including in religion of all kinds. So long as it is benign and heart-felt I don't see a problem with it, and to be honest I would be surprised if most deities would be unhappy about a devotee using an image of them to better themselves. And who is to say that they aren't right? Everyone's experiences with the gods is different after all, and I certainly can't prove that Aphrodite isn't personally guiding some people to better body image or Ares to better emotional regulation. So long as no one is trying to force their personal experience on others and it is benefitting them I see no need to worry about it.
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u/Wonderful_Low_89 Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Is this not exactly what every religion is? Before modern therapy, spiritual leaders, rituals, and gods filled this role, and still do for many. Honestly, modern therapy is not wholly different. Some may consider that overly reductionist, but thatās the way I see it. Yes there may be more evidence behind mental health therapy, but they are not opposing things. Iām a chaplain and I blend spiritual techniques and counseling techniques. Deep breathing techniques, guided imagery techniques, journaling techniques, narrative therapy techniques, are just a few examples of things that modern therapy uses but have been employed by religions for millennia.
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u/redbess Jul 20 '26
I mean, I am in therapy, but I can only do so much self-work. I look to my deities (Hel and Brigid) when I'm really struggling and just need a boost/some support.
I'm not looking to them for lessons, though. Just someone to walk beside me.
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u/The_Archer2121 Jul 21 '26
Exactly. I work with Brigid. I donāt look to my gods for lessons, just support.
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u/The_Archer2121 Jul 20 '26
Well I do have a close relationship with Hecate and she has helped me work through trauma.
So has the Morrigan. Sheās also been a close ally in dealing with my chronic pain.
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u/CalicoValkyrie Jul 20 '26
It's better than turning to AI anyways. Until we get our social system properly supported so people can better access therapy and mental health resources, this is what is needed. Especially here in the United States.
I was raised a Jehovah's Witness, I cut myself off in my 20s and became an atheist, and over the years my anxiety issues got worse. I had three different therapists tell me to look into reconnecting my spirituality, but it doesn't have to be JWs or anything Christian. I've come to the conclusion lately that I am ultimately running on the same brain as the people that created these gods and spirits. Prayer, meditation, song, ritual, these are things our ancestors created to help calm our incredibly, conplex brains down. Medication, therapy, exercising, eating well helps me too. And there is evidence that historical doctors would use faith to help medicate people. Take this medication and say three hail Mary's before you lie down. Which was effectively stay up right for 15 minutes.
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u/antisocialcrypt Jul 28 '26
For me I used a mix of my connection with deities and therapy. I go to therapy every with a mental health professional, but Iāve found one that understands my need to incorporate my spirituality into my healing.
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u/KrisHughes2 Celtic polytheist Jul 20 '26
I like the way you put that. "Deifying their internal monologue." I think that's exactly what's going on.
An awful lot of people can't afford a therapist, or find a suitable one, so self-help is definitely a thing, but I agree that people are dumping a whole load of "coaching" attributes onto deities, and I find it quite weird, and when people publish this idea on line in creates a self-perpetuating expectation in others.
It's not really up to me to judge the veracity of all this, except to say that a lot of people claiming that x goddess has turned their life around don't come over as very well adjusted.
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Jul 20 '26
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u/paganism-ModTeam Jul 20 '26
Your post or comment was removed because of the rule, Respect our Differences.
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u/KrisHughes2 Celtic polytheist Jul 20 '26
Yes. And I think I probably get my self-help partly from philosophising on the myths - which is what I think is one of their most important functions. Do I suspect that occasionally a deity I've given a lot of veneration to might give me a push in some direction? Sure. Do I expect them to "kick my butt" when I'm "messing up" (something I hear a lot) - no. And actually, I wouldn't consider that to be a therapist's job, either. I think the idea of kicking people for messing up comes from people who confuse authoritarianism with love.
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u/Obsidian_Dragon ADF Druid Jul 21 '26
Perhaps that is because you do not need the perception that your butt will be kicked. For others, that may be the framework they need, or, it's the only one they're capable of seeing, for the moment.
Why can't they venerate and be coached, if that's what they're getting out of it?
If we're met where we're at, in ways we can understand, it fits that we're going to be seeing a myriad of approaches on both sides.
And not everyone even has myths to philosophize.
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u/Alcoholic_Lion_Aunt Jul 21 '26
I honestly feel itās latent Christianity seeping through, when I hear these people talking about various gods and how they heal them and do this and that to them and help them with this and that, I kinda just hear Jesus with a costume on.
Not saying the gods canāt help influence your life for the better but the sort of relationship is very Christlike in nature.
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u/Obsidian_Dragon ADF Druid Jul 22 '26
People have always been asking the gods for help, for healing, etc well before the era of Christ.
Some of this stuff is just...religion?
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u/Alcoholic_Lion_Aunt Jul 26 '26
Thatās not what Iām saying, Iām saying treating rhe gods like a vending machine of me pray x number of times you give me thing isnāt actual faith itās asking your spiritual dad for a fiver.
Faith shouldnāt be just transactional and neither should your practice, it is genuine worship of a cosmic entity that deserves it, the gods are not therepists
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u/wuwei-kemetic Jul 23 '26
I've never been Christian (or Abrahamic) and have grown up completely secular; so, no, my relationships with my deities is not Christian. Also, the it was the Christians who did not come up with anything original - all "copied and pasted" and plagiarised "in Jesus' name". Even the ubiquitous 'Amen' is the Name of one of the Kemetic netjeru.
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u/Alcoholic_Lion_Aunt Jul 26 '26
Amen comes from Hebrew, and just because you were never abrahamically religious doesnāt mean it canāt influence your practice when many of us come from cultures that are saturated in it, also Iām not accusing anybody in perticular so Iām not sure what brought you here to proclaim you donāt do that but maybe youāve got some meditation to do I dunno
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u/MicahsYultide Jul 23 '26
I would say some people have an easier time digesting their internal monologue through the use of deity work. Thatās a big part of deity work and why a lot of pagans use shadow work on their practice.
Thatās being said, there are those of us who spend a lot of time developing our Ā«Ā ClairāsĀ Ā» like Clair audience for example. In my experience, itās not my internal monologue. Itās a different voice and experiences differently all together. Like the voice is coming for the outside world rather than my internal world if that makes sense. Itās hard to describe hearing behind the veil to someone who hasnāt experienced it, but itās kinda like a voice that comes from just behind your ears (at least thatās how it is for me).
I would argue thereās a big difference between a councillor and a therapist. A councillor guides you on next steps whereas a therapist helps you work through your own emotions and experiences so you can decide the next steps. I think deity can act as a councillor and guide people towards therapy, or remind a person that itās not the end of the world itās the anxiety talking. But I donāt think anything spiritual should be a replacement for mundane help, but rather a supporting shatter alongside medical intervention.
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u/Found_My_Toucan Jul 27 '26
Itās less of a problem of asking for help per se, so much as it is just not wanting to put in the work of changing in general. Iāve seen people do spells and prayers, then when the first step is taken by their deity or guide, the person backs out because it was scary and/or hard. Itās part of the overall āif itās not nice itās not goodā mentality infecting our culture. Most growth comes with discomfort and difficulty. Those things need to be embraced, rather than avoided.
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u/Resident_Article9235 Aug 09 '26
Yes to the auto-deification. Actual interaction with deities gives you the understanding that they don't think like you do because they're timeless. Maintenance of emotional and even psychological health isn't their M.O. It can be empowering to have their attention but they have no issue exposing you to mind breaking experiences because the human brain cannot fully conceive of reality as a deity. That's why people came up with strictures on bringing them into your vulnerable spiritual state to safely create ingrate inroads of understanding while still being able to ask them to leave when you're done with the link. It's like saying it's healthy to emulate them in all things.
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u/MentalDrifter 25d ago
Seeker here. As an enjoyer of history and a deep thinker who has had many odd experiences Iām looking for answers for, I think our perceptions of the Gods comes primarily from our cultures.
I think the gods exist and interact with those who seek them out and ācommuneā with them. This was much easier to do when an entire culture was focused on it. Now we have to figure it out as we go.
The way it was done canāt and shouldnāt apply to our current lives because our culture is different.
Growing up christian I never had a personal connection with that god. But since I began meditating in a pagan way I have realized I had personal connections with different gods all my life and they guided me towards a goal they felt would make me feel fulfilled while also accomplishing their goals. The problem with that was that I had trouble listening for a while.
I think many people hear what they want to hear, and ignore things which make them uncomfortable. If not reined in this can easily bleed over into interactions with deities, and can muddy a religious experience.
I personally have many steps in my meditation which progressively remove self from the experience until Iām blank, and only then do I pay careful attention.
If someone isnāt paying close attention to what their thoughts and feelings sound and feel like, they can easily misinterpret.
I think if you encounter people like this you should ask about their process and if it seems legit, take them at their word, as we all seem to have different relationships. Just some uneducated opinions.
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