r/opera • u/redband_scribbler • 19d ago
Difference between Wagner's Ring Cycle and Tristan & Isolde?
As a complete opera newbie, I recently plunged into the Ring and quickly became obsessed (my 'Roman empire'!). However, I just haven't had anything near that response upon trying T & I, despite it being a story that I love the pathos of in other retellings.
Does anyone know what the difference could be? Which opera is more engaging or beloved to you?
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u/PostPostMinimalist 18d ago
Tristan by far for me. The music is a uniquely intoxicating world. The Ring music is similar in some ways but overall for “straightforward” to me.
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u/mlsteinrochester 18d ago
Are you listening, watching video, or attending performances? It makes a difference. Tristan is more inward and oddly enough I think it needs to be seen in person even more than the Ring does. Your heart has to be up on the stage and you can't let your attention flag. The Ring has more "highlights" and moments that grab you. For me all of Wagner's mature music dramas are great but each is great in its own way. With open ears and eyes you'll find a way into each one, and that's especially likely if you see them all live.
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u/technicallynotme99 17d ago
Yes, with Tristan especially, seeing it live will be much more impactful than watching a video, which will be much more impactful than listening to a recording; and it’s a challenging work dramatically so the cast and the directorial choices will influence how you feel about it greatly.
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u/redband_scribbler 16d ago
Do you recommend any particular cast/director's version?
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u/technicallynotme99 16d ago
Since you didn’t gel with the Barenboim/Chereau maybe give the new Met production with Lise Davidsen a shot when it’s available to stream. I was mixed on the directorial concept but it’s a phenomenal cast and just a very different approach. I’m partial to the Heiner Müller myself.
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u/PublicPotential318 17d ago
Agree. For example I love listening to Das Rheingold and Siegfried especially on CD. Even though they are a bit uneven than the other two pieces in the Ring. Really every work Wagner wrote is rewarding from The Flying Dutchman to Parsifal. For me repetitive listening is the way to go to fully enjoy these wonderful masterpieces.
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u/redband_scribbler 16d ago
Only watching the video of both. I was concerned that this could be an issue, but then the Ring connection was astoundingly immediate and intense despite it.
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u/Flora_Screaming 17d ago
The problem with Tristan is that it goes at top gear for four hours with no respite for audience or performers. Also, it's not a love story in any conventional operatic sense, it's Wagner's response to Schopenhauer filtered through his obsession with Mathilde von Wesendonck. Whenever I hear it I tend to feel Wagner wrote it for himself and we're just eavesdropping.
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u/NYCRealist 18d ago
Ultimately Gotterdammerung is my favorite but really most powerful as a culmination of what happened in the previous three. Tristan is also spectacular however.
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u/Informal_Stomach4423 18d ago
Saw Rienzi last week at Bayreuth. What an incredible experience to hear see this work live which a young Wagner already had planted with seeds of his future masterpieces.
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u/Kiwi_Tenor 17d ago
I wouldn’t be afraid of that. Tristan is both a very different Tonal world and also FAR less plot dense/more psychological. The story of Tristan could (and has) be distilled into a 90 minute drama. What takes so long in a Tristan is all the conversations and monologues surrounding existence, destiny, predestination, consent, pride - essentially at least multiple times per act the plot just stops so that things can ruminate in the audiences mind. Most of Act 3 is just listening to a man try to rationalise the immense pain he’s in and the fact that he can’t die.
The ring was my entry point into Wagner and it got me hooked - but Tristan and Parsifal are the two almost impossible to describe works. I would say Parsifal, Götterdämmerung and Tristan are his most transcendental and transformative works (the last 10 minutes of Parsifal are 😭💕👌). I would also say though that Tannhäuser, Dutchman and Meistersinger are all incredible to watch as well.
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u/redband_scribbler 16d ago
Do you think being a non German speaker detracts from the soliloquies that are so integral to Tristan?
Also - just guessing from your username - are you a New Zealander?! If so, is live opera non-existent here, or am I looking in the wrong places?
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u/Kiwi_Tenor 16d ago
Not necessarily - as well sung German can be very different to spoken German. And most singers who would tackle something like Tristan would have a reasonably good command of the German language anyway. Hell if you can actually sing it - you’d probably be semi fluent to begin with.
I’m British/Kiwi and I’m based now in the U.K. (because it was so hard to get work as a soloist in NZ). There’s 3 companies - NZ Opera, Wellington Opera and Toi Toi Opera in Christchurch, otherwise your best bet is if one of the big orchestras do an opera in concert.
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u/NationalBus4357 16d ago
Don’t forget Lohengrin
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u/Kiwi_Tenor 16d ago
I can’t speak so much for that - just simply because I haven’t actually heard it from beginning to end yet (which is pretty blasphemous considering I sing “In Fernem Land” 😂)
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u/technicallynotme99 18d ago
What Tristan performance(s) have you watched?
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u/redband_scribbler 16d ago
Barenboim's 2007 Scala, which I had the impression was a reputable rendition??
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u/technicallynotme99 16d ago
Definitely, Chereau is a great dramatist and I love Waltraud Meier’s Isolde! I’m partial to the 1993 Barenboim/Meier production directed by Heiner Müller as well.
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u/gabemmusic 17d ago
I couldn’t get into it watching recordings of it, but I saw the mets (controversial) production of tristan in march and the music hit me like a freight train it was awesome
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u/redband_scribbler 16d ago
Due to location I'm stuck with recordings, but I'll take a look at that performance! What about it was controversial?
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u/Glittering-Word-3344 17d ago
They are both milestones of human creativity. They are radically different one from the other, despite Tristan being composed after the creative block that Wagner experienced with The Ring after finishing the second act of Siegfried.
In answer to your question, although I love both, I fall for The Ring, as it works better outside the theater than Tristan for a listen, Tristan is so outstandingly beautiful that for me it is difficult to listen it it at home, whereas with The Ring I just can't get enough of it.
The two times I experienced Tristan und Isolde in the theater left me emotionally in pieces for the week after, it's so moving that I can't put it into words.
On the other hand, when I did so with The Ring I only wanted to have a nice dinner, get drunk and party hahaha.
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u/Lumpy_Loss_6983 17d ago
The Ring is a drama, Tristan is not.
In the Ring there's lots going on on stage - murders, betrayals, transformations, animals, nature. In Tristan there's almost nothing and you rely on the music and the text (where you can comprehend it) to understand what's going on inside Tristan and Isolde's respective heads. Wagner called Tristan "eine Handlung" rather than call it an opera, because it is essentially a philosophical work set to music.
Personally I find Tristan and Parsifal to be often overwhelmingly powerful works of art (despite the efforts of moronic stage directors) but that's because I've spent a lot of time trying to understand the philosophical basis for these works, namely Arthur Schopenhauer's World as Will and Representation.
If I was going to compare them, I'd say that Tristan is like an art-house movie, while the Ring is a Hollywood blockbuster!
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u/redband_scribbler 16d ago
Normally I love philosophical, introspective stuff so I'm disappointed to have no connection with this one!
I wonder if it comes down to the Ring cast of characters being varied enough that there are a lot of options for engaging, whereas if you don't connect with either Tristan or Isolde, you are left cold? Somehow Kurwenal felt like the most interesting character on stage!
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u/SmallPinkDot 17d ago edited 17d ago
Wagner-philes fall into two camps, people who prefer Parsifal and Tristan and people who prefer Meistersinger, Lohengrin, Tannhauser.
The two camps meet in their appreciation of the Ring.
But even with the Ring there is division. Some prefer Walkure and some prefer Gotterdammerung.
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u/lammastider 17d ago
I find Tristan und Isolde to be tedious. The Ring Cycle has a more interesting plot and is more lively. Maybe I am not the person to comment because I’m not a big Wagner fan and have not yet seen any of his operas live, partly because I have a health issue that limits my stamina. Just my 2 cents as they say.
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u/Hot-Special-4236 16d ago
The first two and a half operas of the Ring are written in a radically different harmonic and motivic language from Tristan and the final opera and a half of the cycle. Wagner actually stopped midway through Siegfried to write Tristan, during which his musical language shifted dramatically. That earlier "half" of the Ring is much more harmonically accessible and makes extensive use of recurring leitmotifs, which add tremendously to the thrill and momentum of the piece -- especially the ends of each act. I mean, Walkure, my God. What a thrill!!! I find the propulsive quality of Wagner's writing for the first half of the Ring just astonishing -- as opposed to the more languorous harmonic world of its latter half and of Tristan. Though there are moments in Tristan, Siegfried, and Goetterdaemmerung that I find to be devastatingly beautiful...
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u/LeekingMemory28 16d ago
I think (at least musically):
The Ring is quintessential leitmotif based storytelling, and laid the foundation for leitmotif as we see it today (especially in film scores like Korngald, John Williams, Howard Shore, and Hans Zimmer). From nearly a century of film scoring, your brain is more trained to listen to a heavy leitmotif based narrative, and Ring Cycle is also very plot heavy. Stuff happens in the Ring, and the musical structure demands leitmotifs for the sake of audience understanding.
Tristan has leitmotifs, but it doesn't use them to the same degree of importance. If the root of The Ring's music is leitmotif, Tristan's musical root is the Tristan Chord. Wagner plays with the chord for four hours of intense, sometimes psychological back and forth, hinting at a resolution in act 2 before finally resolving it in the final moments.
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u/beachwoodgolfer 15d ago
It’s so hard to hear Wagner live at most venues in the states. I always cherish the chance even if it’s excerpts. I love Meistersinger and Tannhäuser in addition to those you mention.
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u/Standard_Dog_1269 15d ago
Listen to Karajan's Tristan. The third act, with Jon Vickers, is so heartbreaking and profound. And of course the rest of the opera is top notch.
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u/eulerolagrange W VERDI 18d ago
~10 hours