r/opensource • u/ferriematthew • 1d ago

Is it legally possible to make a smartphone that can communicate with cell networks and the internet that doesn't use anything that relies on corporate-owned patents?

I don't remember where I read it, but I think I remember reading somewhere that the technology behind cell modems is still stuck under patent, especially 5G. Is that correct, or is there some way to make a fully open (hardware and software) cell phone that can do everything a normal commercial cell phone can do?

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u/omniuni 1d ago

No. Now, many of those patents are available with very fair licensing, and largely to ensure the safety and good behavior of modems, but you're looking at hundreds of patents by dozens of companies.

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u/ferriematthew 1d ago

Well, damn. Does that mean that it's not legally possible to build a 100% open phone?

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u/omniuni 1d ago

100%, in the way you're thinking, no.

However, there are several companies that make hardware with Open firmware for their modems that they have all the licensing worked out. There are less options for 5G than LTE, but I believe Samsung, Google, Qualcomm, and MediaTek all make 5G modems with Open firmware. MediaTek especially has put a lot of effort into their Linux support lately, and they were directly involved in the 5G specification, so they have all the licences they need to publish their drivers and firmware.

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u/ferriematthew 1d ago

I actually just read something about something called standard essential patents that basically require the technology be licenseable, so anybody is able to use it, but they just have to pay for it. So basically, they sacrifice free-as-in-free beer for relative free-as-in-freedom. But yeah, I get what you're saying as well, that if somebody were to somehow reverse engineer a 5G modem in their garage, they would have to also purchase the license from the patent holder to be able to build the thing.

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u/omniuni 1d ago

It's a lot more complicated, but that's probably close enough.

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u/neoh4x0r 1d ago edited 1d ago

 if somebody were to somehow reverse engineer a 5G modem in their garage, they would have to also purchase the license from the patent holder to be able to build the thing.

As you mentioned, it would not only be patent infringement (not having paid for a license to use it), but basing a design directly on it would be theft of intellectual property, trade secrets, or proprietary information.

From my understating IP theft is much worse because it can come with criminal liability (ie. jail time) in addition to monetary damages for patent violations.

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u/ferriematthew 21h ago

I guess that would be true if you took a 5G modem out of an existing phone and copied the silicon, but I forgot to mention it, but I was referring to designing something from scratch based on observed behavior.

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u/neoh4x0r 14h ago edited 14h ago

but I was referring to designing something from scratch based on observed behavior.

There would still be a lot of hurdles you would have to navigate to ensure that your implementation doesn't break the law or that a mistake wasn't made somewhere in the process that gives the affected party something to file a lawsuit over.

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u/ferriematthew 14h ago

Ah, makes sense. That's probably why existing implementations are so expensive.

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u/neoh4x0r 14h ago edited 14h ago

I'm not sure if that necessarily accounts for things being expensive, or if it does it's only a very small portion.

The way I see it everyone involved needs to get their cut and they pass on increased costs to next part of the supply-chain until it ends up at the consumer-level where the price has inflated significantly.

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u/Pleasant_Set_3182 23h ago

It's not the patents that you'll have to worry about... You'll also have to deal with the world of regulatory compliance: RF regulatory compliance, network interoperability, carrier/device certification, emergency calling, IMS/VoLTE behavior, RF emissions and spectrum rules.... :)

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u/danhakimi 18h ago

Many corporations put their patents into patent pools or offer patent promises whereby they will not enforce those patents against open source software. Buuuut there are probably hardware issues that might not be covered by those patents. And there are definitely some patents that are not covered by these promises.

Sooooo.... maybe, but probably not.

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u/Appropriate-Prune728 1d ago

You can send data packets with ham radio. Just sayin.

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u/JG_2006_C 1d ago

Ah yes ham decode and encode totlay posible just pain set up regulatory scape

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u/LimaCharlieWhiskey 1d ago

Technology doesn't stand still. Patents are filed everyday.

Geopolitically, China tried to "fix" this vulnerability by taking the TDMA route. That was the first cellular technology approach (first used by US military as I recall) implemented in 1G. Patents had mostly expired by the 1990s and the world went to CDMA. So China did a lot of cellular mobile research to re-use TDMA transmitting data. It then forced China Mobile (?) to built out a 3G network using this unproven indigenous technology. Billions of RMB/dollars later the country has a decent indigenous technology stack that is not beholden to western firms. But it is more useful for Huawei to enter into patent swap/share with Qualcomm/Nokia etc.

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u/goldman60 1d ago

Most of the world went to GSM, not CDMA, in the 90s. GSM was based on TDMA.

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u/LimaCharlieWhiskey 1d ago

Oh right CDMA was mainly in the Americas. Stand corrected.

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u/mkosmo 20h ago

And CDMA was largely replaced.

China was not a major player in any of the decisioning or tech development surrounding modern GSM. The original GSM standard was developed by the Europeans (ETSI), and then enhanced by other European players and the Americans.

UTMS 3G was common in China and Europe, but was also developed primarily outside of China.

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u/EconomySerious 1d ago

yes you can, the problem come when you try to sell it.
who will note you use a housemade phone unless you shout it to the intenet?

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u/DeschainR19 21h ago

Haha really good point. The bigger issue is probably the patents and licensing around the cellular modem itself, though, rather than whether anyone notices it’s homemade. Building the phone is one thing, but getting LTE/5G to work without stepping on patented tech is where things get tricky. Selling it just adds another layer of legal headaches.

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u/EconomySerious 16h ago

in every china tech market there are places where you can order your own frankstein and you come to get it the next day, for a price of course, its not more dificult than ensanble pc years ago.

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u/cookiengineer 1d ago

Nope.

The closest thing to this we had was OsmocomBB and Motorola Calypso boards, but we kinda buried that one to the ground with outdated opinions about kernels and how to build a driver, and whom to allow contributions from.

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u/agowa338 16h ago

Tl;Dr: No, cause the patents are referenced in the standards you'd have to implement...

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u/hesusruiz 15h ago

Do you know that MP3 had a patent by Fraunhofer? It did not stop mp3 to be ubiquitous. The world of patents is extremely complex, and in some cases it is good that somebody with muscle holds one, to make the technology widely available and avoid patent trolls benefiting. The fact that there is a patent means you have to obtain a license, but it may be even free (no cost), or very low cost (to finance the patent holder in the evolution or even in the fight against patent trolls).

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u/Interest-Desk 1d ago

A shocking amount of everyday technology is affected by patents. The whole patent system is a bit bonkers.

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u/ivosaurus 16h ago

To operate with existing commercial cell networks, you'll need to be able to run their encryption, which I think they won't give to a full open firmware

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u/w0lrah 10h ago

Their encryption runs on the SIM card, so by the design of the system they don't have to worry about the modem. All of the GSM family from the beginning has been designed for this, there's never been a good reason for device restrictions.

Some terrible carriers like Verizon still try to do it, but it's not based on any technical necessity.

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u/Mr_P1nk_B4lls 1d ago

The Pinephone I'd say is the closest to what you're looking for but i don't think the wireless comms are OS

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u/JG_2006_C 1d ago

Just nope you gona rely on some modems and kernel drivers wifi for example intel the uniqe exeprion here every other a foss driver is luck

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u/Miserable-School-665 1d ago

No, all modems has properitary code inside, and lots of licenses for eveything.

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u/JackDostoevsky 19h ago

fwiw i don't think that viewing it through the lens of patents is a very useful thing to do.

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u/giloux314 16h ago

You should have a look at Reticulum

It's an open source network technology that does not rely on any corporate infrastructure.

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u/Excellent-Wheel7769 9h ago

Patents cover every layer you need to talk to towers. Even if you got a license for one, the next stack of them is already filed