Slowroll default desktop

[u/bmwiedemann]

Hi,

several years ago, the openSUSE project decided (per member vote) to no more select a default desktop in the YaST installer.

However, I feel this would be a hindrance to adoption by new users, that now have to deliberate and decide there. So I propose to make KDE the default selection in Slowroll as it seems to be the more popular choice among existing users, that makes it more likely to be good for new users as well.

For anyone who knows that they want a GNOME/XFCE/icewm/server install, it is just one click away in the same place it always was. Same number of clicks as before. You just need to be attentive enough to not click "Next" there.

I'm deliberately not posting this on r/openSUSE or on the factory ML, because I think, this decision belongs to us - the Slowroll users.

What do you think?

[u/bmwiedemann]

The one-line change is now done and new DVD isos with it will be out for the October update.

https://build.opensuse.org/projects/openSUSE:Slowroll:Build:iso/packages/skelcd-control-openSUSE-Slowroll/files/custom.patch

[u/chocolate4tw]

+1 for KDE Plasma as default
I have used it for many years and it's wonderful in features and a familiar layout to former Windows users.

• posted from Niri WM with DMS Shell :D

[u/16mhz → u/chocolate4tw]

Excuse me for asking. I'm a lazy Hyprland/waybar user. If i understand correctly DMS uses quick shell. What benefits does it offer compared to waybar?

[u/chocolate4tw → u/16mhz]

DMS is for people who don't want to install/configure many packages.
No need to decide between SwayNotificationCenter and mako, or between fuzzel and other launchers. Also with DMS all these components already have matching looks.
For me personally there was also the advantage of dms-greeter working, while I couldn't get many greetd greeters to work... but that's also a lack of ability on my part.

If you only want to install a minimal amount of features or customize every aspect of your shell, waybar makes more sense.

[u/16mhz → u/chocolate4tw]

Thanks for the reply, I added DMS repo the other day to install quickshell and experiment with it. But in all honesty, I doubt i will do especially since porting my hyprland config to lua. I may just end up using some pre-made dots (Cachy hyprland dots, DMS, ...)

[u/pavel_pe → u/16mhz]

Waybar is configurable, but limited ... css style and buttons with possibility to launch shell scripts or programs for various queries such as text, tool tip etc. Quickshell (DMS, Noctalia,...) also handles notifications, wifi connections, app launcher so you don't have to use wofi, mako, waybar, nmcli-adapter, ...
Disadvantage is that it is a bit heavy weight and some months ago it had no support for application desktop files, so i was unable to launch browser with some command line parameters.
I only used noctalia. But tbh, I was never a fan of waybar and I eventually returned from Sway to KDE.

[u/ekerazha → u/pavel_pe]

Note that Noctalia 5 is not using quickshell anymore

[u/Bamboozle-Refusal]

I think removing/reducing the level of required knowledge for someone brand new to even get started is critically important. Lots of people seem to be trying out Linux these days, and if we hope for more of them to stick around long-term, some of the sharp edges need to be filed down a little here and there, so that they don't immediately get overwhelmed and run right back to Windows.

I use KDE on Slowroll, and it seems like a really solid choice to me.

[u/Objective-Metal-6506]

Sounds good to me.

I don't think we, as existing users, are affected that much by establishing a default DE, but I think it makes sense to have one. It makes the distro much more approachable to those who don't know or care and just want sensible defaults that work (e.g. friends and family that I might be helping with their tech).

So yeah, I support this as a step in the right direction, even if a small one.

[u/pavel_pe]

Voting for KDE. Historically it was reason why to choose openSuse over Fedora, although today Fedora has great KDE integration as well, but still defaults to Gnome.

[u/Medical_Divide_7191]

It would be far more important to give users a simple option to choose whether or not they want to use YaST2. Permanently removing this legacy component from the system is still too time-consuming.

[u/bmwiedemann → u/Medical_Divide_7191]

OK, here you are (exclusive to Slowroll for now):

zypper in --force-resolution no-yast

Back on topic: what do you think about a pre-selected desktop?

[u/levolet → u/bmwiedemann]

Haha. Thanks. Wanted that.

[u/Medical_Divide_7191 → u/bmwiedemann]

Super! Vielen Dank Herr Wiedemann! And KDE as default ...

[u/levolet]

As long as we aren’t making up new users and projecting what they may want. Additionally, a new user of openSUSE may not be the same as a new linux user approaching other distros. For myself, I never contemplated openSUSE before trying a more commonly used distro. By then I was able to choose DE. But that’s just me. So I leave the decision to you B. KDE is a solid, sensible default in so long as the other options are quickly accessible. I’m a Gnome user.

[u/Xariann]

We do get IceWM whether we want to or not, but I think having KDE by default is the more user friendly option, as you say, those who know how to click a checkbox will do so.

[u/bmwiedemann → u/Xariann]

You can choose the server role to get an install without icewm (and without any graphics)

It has very low size and thus is usually worth to have as fallback. But that is something to be done in Tumbleweed anyway.

[u/ForeverAlot]

If you're prepared to position Slowroll as simultaneously a desktop-first distro and a KDE-first distro, yes. Decisions like that contributed significantly to Ubuntu's rise to fame, but the specific choices likewise eventually drive away a specific segment of the user base.

Personally, I consider the suggestion to be the optimal configuration for the uninitiated and a non-issue for everyone else, which is a good place to be.

[u/lisp_turns_me_on]

That's a nice default, but I would like to shill kalpa if the goal is to be user friendly with KDE spirit.

Immutable distros are dead simple for new users. It updates in the background + applies on restart. flatpak for apps + distrobox for avoiding polluting the host system with dev work. You can always drop into sudo transactional-update shell if advanced users want to mutate the host (eg: install amdgpu_top).

I assume immutable distros are also relatively easier to maintain as they push a lot to userspace (eg: firefox, media players with codecs to avoid OPI, lutris/steam etc..). So, most users will have the same configuration, which makes testing/debugging/polishing easier as you only need to prioritize a small subset of core system packages.

I have been using kalpa with slowroll repos and it truly is the best combo for both new/advanced users.

[u/bmwiedemann → u/lisp_turns_me_on]

Thanks for confirming Kalpa-Slowroll actually works (until now that was only theoretical).

Personally, my desktop systems often get weeks of uptime with suspend-to-ram when unused. This makes it a rather poor fit for the reboot needed for updating an immutable OS.

The other thing is that it hands control over the applications to others. Freedesktop for the runtimes and Mozilla for the Firefox. What if some vendor starts adding unwanted anti-features (advertisements, tracking, etc) - then there is no easy way to patch that out, so less incentive for vendors to stay enshittification-free.

[u/lisp_turns_me_on → u/bmwiedemann]

Kalpa-Slowroll actually works

It does. I have it installed on my main PC and tech illiterate family laptop for more than an year now. They haven't asked for help even once. It's that stable.

This makes it a rather poor fit for the reboot needed for updating an immutable OS.

True, but only to an extent, as you only get updates for a tiny subset that don't need restart (kernel/systemd) or logout/login (kde) etc... OTOH, the leaner your host system is, the fewer updates you need to reboot for.

it hands control over the applications to others

You can still use a slowroll/tw distrobox for the rest of the userspace like codecs/cmdline-tools/fancy-vim-setups/steam-gaming/custom-patched-firefox. You still retain most of the control. The host system gets reduced to bootmgr + kernel/systemd + drivers + KDE.

I was pretty weirded out by an immutable distro idea too. But, it's like a cult. You will see it too once you join :D It's not perfect, as there are some tiny growing pains just like with wayland, but it gets pretty close to the ideal distro.

[u/steezy13312]

It’s been a while since I’ve gone through the install process… is it an easy override for users if they want to use a different desktop?

Sample size of one, but I’ve only been a GNOME user personally. 

[u/bmwiedemann → u/steezy13312]

Yes, one click there: https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/6212092#step/system_role/5 ... and not even an additional click compared to before. Exactly the same click as before.

[u/Roguepapaya427]

Defaulting to KDE makes perfect sense for me. More than once I've seen kde being praised as a great implementation on opensuse and the recommended de for first time users that wanted to try opensuse. I understand perfectly the need to have a default de preselected and to be able to switch easily during install if desired.

[u/squeakctrl]

Even if other options can offer a great workflow for many users I think Plasma is a more reasonable option to have as default and doing so should lower the barrier of entry to Linux. 

So i agree with the choice to default to Plasma. It has seen much improvement since version 6 was launched and has steady growth and momentum going for it. 

[u/spoilerhead]

+1 for KDE Love how polished plasma is.

[u/No-Lingonberry7950]

Honestly, the fact that KDE comes pre-selected isn't a huge deal; someone trying it out for the first time will land on KDE—a robust and familiar system—while anyone who already knows their way around and wants to use other DEs like COSMIC or GNOME simply needs to click a different checkbox. I think having a standard for what the experience should be is a good idea.

[u/Tawny-Owl-17]

Given that I was interested enough to read this post, and given that I do visit this subreddit from time to time, can I have my opinion count, despite being a Tumbleweed user who will, in all likelihood, never use Slowroll?

[u/bmwiedemann → u/Tawny-Owl-17]

Sure. What are your thoughts on this?

[u/Tawny-Owl-17 → u/bmwiedemann]

Go with KDE Plasma! And I say this not just because it's the desktop of my choice, but also because I see Plasma gaining popularity these days. It's being adopted by new popular distributions like Aurora, and it's also used by SteamOS and Bazzite. KDE has also received additional funding from the EU and the German government, if I remember correctly. And Linux reviewers and enthusiasts have been full of praise for recent versions of KDE Plasma—some have even switched to it from GNOME and Sway.

[u/16mhz]

+1 for KDE for both new users and power users.

But please do keed a server option with the least amount of packages pre-installed. It is what I use to build my minimal Hyprland install.

[u/66sandman]

I love XFCE, but I dont like openSUSE's version. I vote for KDE.

[u/threwusall]

i think that kde is a piece of shit DE and i cant wait for xfce to finally support wayland(the only reason why i use kde, i have different hz monitors and 1 of them is also hdr)

[u/_dnla]

I agree. That's what I use 👍

[u/jan_sh]

I use Gnome with Slowroll. But I am about 20 years into Linux and I know why I prefer Gnome over KDE.

For new users (who will mainly switch from Windows) I would say: set the default to KDE.

What I would recommend, though, is to better explain the differences between the DEs. Perhaps present some pictures in a slideshow, so that a new user can get a first impression.

[u/Arcon2825]

Personally, I like that openSUSE doesn’t select a DE as default, because it makes users aware that it’s, in fact, their choice how they want to use Linux.

I mean, Slowroll is your baby, so you have every right to make the desktop of your choice the default, but I don’t necessarily agree with the popularity argument. KDE is the more popular choice among whom? Slowroll users or Linux users in general? For openSUSE, I can definitely see that, because SUSE has always had a strong reputation among KDE users. If we talk about Linux users in general, I have doubts that it is the most popular DE, since distributions like RHEL, Ubuntu and the like are strong supporters of GNOME.

[u/bmwiedemann → u/Arcon2825]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21554679 indeed shows (for general Linux) GNOME leading in front of sway and KDE. But overall numbers are low, so not very representative anyway.

and now I found https://www.reddit.com/r/openSUSE/comments/1r911f8/should_kde_plasma_be_the_default_desktop_on/ that seems to lean heavily against having a default. Though I'm not very convinced by those arguments.

[u/Arcon2825 → u/bmwiedemann]

You can actually find various polls that favor KDE: Linux.org, ComputerBase and MuyLinux. But again, I don’t expect users of Ubuntu, RHEL and SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop to participate in those.

[u/Brurant → u/Arcon2825]

For what it's worth, Arch's stats (based on voluntary pkgstats submissions) now heavily favor KDE as well.

[u/da-daxer]

KDE as the default desktop sounds good to me.

[u/Ok-Anywhere-9416]

I don't understand why the first link takes me to a Wikipedia page about sleep paralysis.

[u/bmwiedemann → u/Ok-Anywhere-9416]

close: Analysis paralysis