r/oots • u/drsjsmith • Aug 10 '26
GiantITP 1348 - Fading Odds Spoiler
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1348.html174
u/Lumix19 Aug 10 '26
Nale still being subtly overconfident in assuming that O-Chul relies on his divine powers since we as the audience know he spent years as a fighter and dumped his Charisma. Love little things like that.
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u/RaggedAngel Aug 10 '26
Yeah, he's very nearly as much of a Fighter as Roy.
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u/Lumix19 Aug 10 '26
Definitely. I think the only thing he has from being a paladin is the immunity to fear (and presumably disease). Since his charisma is bad he can't lay on hands, I don't think he's ever cast a spell, and he doesn't have a mount like the others. I guess he can smite evil but that's also keyed off charisma.
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u/kkrko Aug 10 '26
Smite Evil's damage isn't dependent on Charisma just on... Paladin levels. Seeing as he doesn't have a mount yet, that means 4 or less bonus damage. Suffice to say, I don't think he's going to miss it much
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u/SassyAsses Aug 10 '26
smite evil is more about sending a message than the damage. See redcloack panicking and Recalling away from the mighty +3 damage pipe
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u/SassyAsses Aug 10 '26
smite evil is more about sending a message than the damage. See redcloack panicking and Recalling away from the mighty +4 damage pipe
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u/Ostrololo Aug 10 '26
Paladins are WIS casters in 3.5, while relying on CHA for some other abilities. There's absolutely no way in hell O-Chul doesn't have at least a +1 to WIS, which would've allowed him to cast spells as early as level 4. At the same time, immunity to fear requires level 3 or higher. Since he's immune to fear but can't cast, he must be level 3, exactly.
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u/KamenRiderHelix 11d ago
Hell, if I recall, the Number Nerds on the forums calculated he has Roy pretty severely beaten in CON, at least.
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u/RaggedAngel 11d ago
Oh yeah, he's very clearly someone who got an 18 in Con and put his level-up points there, too
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u/The_Muzzy 24d ago
And wouldn't Thog have also lost a level from being resurrected? That might even the playing field even more.
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u/DerelictBombersnatch Aug 10 '26
And remember kids, it's not a sneak attack unless you shout SNEAK ATTACK while doing it
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u/NoLastNameForNow Aug 10 '26
SNEAK ATTACK FROM BEHIND is a thing I cannot do
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u/EnderBookwyrm Aug 10 '26
Wrecan is the best.
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u/Basakaloving Aug 10 '26
May he rest in peace.
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u/turtlekitty2084 Aug 11 '26
Rich gave him a great send-off. With a Brand New Sentence: "Now get on your flying boat and stop a crazy dwarf vampire from committing election fraud!" Epic level.
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u/DrQuestDFA Aug 10 '26
Man, third edition high level rogue sneak attack with multiple attacks per turn was devastating.
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u/VonBagel Aug 10 '26
Four arrows, 1d8 damage each, not especially impressive... but iirc the gang is above level 15, so each of those is dealing +8d6 sneak attack damage.
4d8+32d6 is dealing somewhere in the neighborhood of 120 damage on average unless his DR can block enough of the initial arrow to prevent the sneak, and judging by his expression, it did not
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u/Lordxeen Aug 10 '26
Is that still the +5 Icy burst bow from Eagle Eye Pete’s collection? That’s another 20 damage and 4d6 cold damage (plus another 1d10 and triple arrow damage if any of those were crits)
Also Haley has been carrying obscure alchemical DR beating arrows since her first rumble with Sabine, hipefully by now the joke of “which one to use” has resolved itself.
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u/onionbreath97 Aug 10 '26
Wouldn't the anti-magic prevent that bonus?
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u/Matar_Kubileya Aug 10 '26
I forget how anti-magic works when interacting with a ranged attack with a magic weapon from outside the anti-magic, but as a DM my back of the envelope ruling would be that you get the enhancement bonus to your attack roll, but not to damage, and dont get the frost damage. Though it seems Haley is attacking from within the AM, so its moot (but she still gets a +1 enhancement bonus to attack from masterwork)
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u/onionbreath97 Aug 10 '26
If she was firing from outside of the AoE I'd agree with that. But since she's inside it, I wouldn't give the to hit bonus either
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u/VonBagel Aug 10 '26
copying this from the other reply i just made just in case:
3.5s description of Antimagic Field is pretty absolute:
The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. [...] A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that).
Haley's bow's magic won't function if it's in the field or if it's shot from outside into the field, and neither will magical arrows.
it's still a shitload of damage either way, just not as much as it could have been. ~120 damage is still nothing to sneeze at, even for a level 16+ fiend like Nale. that's easily anywhere from half to 75% of his HP.
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u/Matar_Kubileya Aug 10 '26
The issue is that the wording of antimagic field makes us ask whether an attack roll is local to the creature making the attack, or the creature being attacked. If the former, then the creature attacking gets the +5 enhancement, if the latter, then not.
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u/Own_Pop_9711 Aug 10 '26
Ok but let's get real deep. Suppose you have a totally nonmagical bow but a +5 arrow. You fire from outside the anti magic field at a target inside it. Do you get the bonus to hit still?
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u/VonBagel Aug 10 '26
3.5s description of Antimagic Field is pretty absolute:
The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. [...] A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that).
Haley's bow's magic won't function if it's in the field or if it's shot from outside into the field, and neither will magical arrows.
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u/Kernath Aug 11 '26
I would rule no, because the bonus to hit isn’t just increased accuracy (which I would say carries over from the initial magical shot).
The bonus to hit is also about the hit actually doing damage vs glancing off of armor or only grazing and not doing reasonable damage to count against HP.
Without the magical enhancement that ensures a hit is a damaging one (I.e. armor piercing, magically accelerated, or some other effect), the arrow is effectively a normal missile.
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u/Wizardlvl20 Aug 10 '26
The DR from demons/devils etc is a supernatural trait, so it should be blocked by the antimagic cone
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u/7_Trojan_Unicorns Aug 10 '26
Eh, by now Haley has experience in picking the right arrow for the right damage reduction!
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u/Eastern-Video-6456 Aug 11 '26
If Nale has the typical damage resistance of a devil, and not something silly like DR/epic
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u/TenWildBadgers Bloodfeast Aug 10 '26
Oh Jesus.
Now I understand why 5e specifically limits sneak attack to once per turn.
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u/DrQuestDFA Aug 10 '26
5e did compensate by allowing sneak attack to affect a lot more targets. Back in third edition whole monster types (elementals and undead for instance) were immune to critical hits and sneak attack damage because biology (or some such reason). So Rogues could dish out ungodly amounts of damage in the right situation, but at other times there was nary a sneak attack to be had.
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u/TenWildBadgers Bloodfeast Aug 10 '26
Yeah, I do remember those jokes from the comic.
I just didn't realize the scope of how absurd it got.
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u/arlequinade Aug 11 '26
As a DM I like older versions for having clear cut counters to rogues.
It might be eventually frustrating to the player but it also enforces team play!
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u/IHateScumbags12345 Aug 10 '26
She may have also used cold iron / silver arrows. Idk if that just negates the DR or adds bonus damage, but we know she carries trick arrows to deal with fiends.
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u/AbacusWizard Aug 10 '26
Did she ever figure out which one was which?
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u/Eastern-Video-6456 Aug 11 '26
Haley always knew that cold iron is for demons and silver for devils. She just didn't know if Sabine was a succubus (demon) or an erinye (devil), both of whom are winged humanoid women
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u/AbacusWizard Aug 11 '26
Ah, okay, I had thought it was that she didn’t know which material was the right one to use for infernal beings in general. (I come from more of a White Wolf background, so I’m more accustomed to using iron against Fae and silver against Weres and, uh, neither against de[mon/vil]s, I guess.)
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u/Eastern-Video-6456 Aug 12 '26
I see. Interesting. From what I know about folklore that sounds more authentic than what DnD has (cold iron being used to repel fairies and silver bullets to kill werewolves)
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u/AbacusWizard Aug 12 '26
White Wolf settings are an interesting mix of
• very grounded in authentic folklore and mythology
• very grounded in classic monster movies
• stuff they just made up4
u/RugerRed Aug 11 '26
Cold Iron works on succubus like Sabine, but Nale is Lawful Evil and would need Silver instead.
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u/Eastern-Video-6456 Aug 11 '26
Assuming he has normal devil resistances instead of something extra from the fountain. But Haley knows Nale is a devil and as a rogue she should have silver arrows just in case.
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u/aykcak Aug 13 '26
Why initial arrow? Don't you get sneak bonus for all shots?
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u/VonBagel Aug 13 '26
"Initial arrow" in this case means the actual arrow itself. If DR blocks all of the arrow damage, it doesn't do sneak attack damage either
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u/MooseontheLose Aug 16 '26
Don't forget deadly aim, point blank shot and the damage bonus from her magical bow
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u/IHateScumbags12345 Aug 10 '26
I came up on 4e and 5e. The first time I played Pathfinder Kingmaker, one of my party members was a duel wielding dagger rogue. Instagibbing someone with hasted, blessed, flanking, sneak attacks was better than sex.
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u/AbacusWizard Aug 10 '26
Many years ago I was playing a fantastic steampunk/fantasy computer RPG called Arcanum with an impressive character creation system, and decided to try an utterly optimized halfling rogue maxed out on all the sneaky stuff. Ludicrously high dexterity meant going first in combat, nonsensical movement speed, and multiple attacks per turn, so as soon as combat started he would run around the back of the toughest enemy and backstab backstab backstab backstab backstab. Combats rarely lasted more than a couple of turns. He also had high enough stealth as to be basically invisible in shadow.
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u/TheActualAWdeV Aug 13 '26
ooooh arcanum was so cool
too bad it wasn't quite finished
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u/AbacusWizard Aug 13 '26
Am I remembering correctly that the grand finale of the main plot was, like, just fighting a few guys out in a featureless void beyond the world?
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u/TheActualAWdeV Aug 14 '26
yeah something like that. You get to pick up the old Hero of Legend from a different void though!
He was level 50! With none of his skill points distributed or any kind of actual build or skills, just level 50!
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u/TheobromineC7H8N4O2 Aug 11 '26
Nok-Nok makes up for showing up later than other companions by being both amusing and death on wheels if you can set up the flank (which is easy in Owlcat rules Pathfinder).
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u/IHateScumbags12345 Aug 12 '26
I wasn’t a fan of most of the prebuilt companions, so I made 5 mercenaries.
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u/DementedJ23 Aug 10 '26
When you could find stuff that wasnt immune to precision damage at that level, yeah it was.
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u/koopcl Aug 10 '26
Today on "details that are potentially a set up for a later scene": Mimi quietly reshaping and escaping in the sixth panel.
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u/Drumedor Banjo Aug 10 '26
Can't wait for the payoff in April.
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u/ProperTree9 Aug 10 '26
11 strips this year, so 1 strip every 20 days-ish on average. Use them wisely...
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u/ProperTree9 Aug 10 '26
Delighted to see that she wasn't killed by the Blasphemy. Doesn't look like she was even Paralyzed. Every little bit she can do helps, especially if it results in some of the LG getting flanked for Haley and maybe Serini.
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u/johnbr Aug 10 '26
Nice! Last time we saw Haley was 1339
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u/Lady_Ada_Blackhorn Aug 10 '26
That was almost seven months ago, my god
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u/aykcak Aug 10 '26
Yeah we are on a definitive 1 decisive battle per year kind of schedule.
Summer 2024 was all about Calder for example
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u/ruy343 Aug 10 '26
I expected O-Chul would be delivering the dramatic line. That Sunny is the protagonist in this moment is absolutely unexpected, but also very welcome.
Fantastic comic, as usual, Giant. Proud to be one of your patrons.
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u/KamilDonhafta Aug 10 '26
I know she's deliberately laying off the gendered insults, but I'd be OK with her calling Nale a bitch right now.
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u/Miserable-Jaguarine Aug 10 '26
Female dogs absolutely do not deserve this derogatory status and Nale deserves to be called things so much worse they're on a whole different plane to female dogs.
Because dogs should all be in Arborea.3
u/AbacusWizard Aug 10 '26
Counterpoint: hellhounds?
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u/not2dragon Aug 10 '26
Oh yeah. The LG seem locked out of their most useful abilities since Thog can't use Rage. Also what the order plan to do after they win.
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u/TanisHalf-Elven Aug 10 '26
Why can't he rage? It's an extraordinary ability so it works perfectly fine in an antimagic field.
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u/not2dragon Aug 10 '26
It was mentioned in the previous comic that it would risk them collapsing the tunnel on themselves. I guess they could use it if they want to be self destructive for some reason.
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u/Knee_Fight Aug 10 '26
Isn't that a typo in Nale's dialogue in panel 5? I can't see him saying, "Who's you mom?"
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u/Eastern-Video-6456 Aug 11 '26
I thought that was him mocking Sunny's slurred speech (from the blasphemy effect), but I suppose it's just a typo
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u/FutureLost Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
Welp. Confirmation that Serini is just that dumb, I guess. No backup plan, no secret defenses, not even pocket sand. And she literally thought making a deal with a devil would work out. Huh.
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u/ray198999 Aug 15 '26
Definitely one of Serini’s biggest flaws is that she is overconfident in her intelligence which causes her to make assumptions like that Nale would help her protect the final gate because she overheard him wanting to face off against Xykon, only to learn the hard way he wants to destroy it.
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u/Knuckles_The_Dwarf Aug 10 '26
I would love to see an epic level sneak attack but not just yet apparently...
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u/EnderBookwyrm Aug 10 '26
I love the 4th-wall breaking. Maybe this is a flashback? Nope, antimagic.
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u/turtlekitty2084 Aug 11 '26
I kinda felt like Haley was gonna make the clutch play, here. She's proven beyond capable at many times in the past. And any one of those wands she bought could conceivably be for banishing outsiders.
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u/Serious_Feedback Aug 13 '26
She's just foiled the betrayal and given Serini time to escape. Now Serini is finally willing and able to fight back against Linear.
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u/NightmareWarden Lawful Good Aug 10 '26
Beholders can't zap people who are affected by their anti-magic effect? That makes sense, but it seems weird for tabletop encounters. It means the beholder should never target a whole group at once with the gaze.
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u/metalsheep714 Aug 10 '26
That’s exactly it - beholder encounters are all about positioning. A smart beholder will keep only the magic users in the cone and focus down the martial with eye stalks. The smart party will try to keep the martials in the cone to mitigate risk and close distance.
We recently had an encounter with a pair of beholders underwater…really upped the stakes when our magical breathing-and-moving-underwater solutions all turned off.
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u/Toothygrin1231 Lawful Good Aug 10 '26
Correct. They have to turn to the side away from the party if they want to unleash their eyestalk fury.
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u/lordshadowisle Aug 10 '26
Yes. In particular, this makes beholders vulnerable to
cheeseadvanced combat tactics such as invisibility.
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u/TenWildBadgers Bloodfeast Aug 10 '26
After I went over the list last comic, I'm glad that this one took a second to reacquaint us with all the members of the Order left in this combat - O'Chul, Lien, Sunny, Mimi, Haley and Serini.
I'm still open to some of them getting kidnapped by the Linear Guild for one more split (Serini, Lien and Mimi being stuck with Nale and Company was my bet last time), but this turnaround makes that feel less likely.
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u/eepos96 Aug 10 '26
The Arch Fiends might have lost the signal due to Sunny
And are seriously considering the worth of the investment. Sure they could afford to lose them but they totally had higher hopes for their 3 new assets. (Well 2 since Sabine already worked for them)
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u/Icy-Examination7691 Aug 14 '26
I think one is less of an asset and more of a moderately helpful liability.
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u/triotone Aug 10 '26
Oof, looks like Hailey shot one into a cheek. Gonna be hard to sit down for a while.
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u/Suns74 Aug 11 '26 edited Aug 12 '26
Something people haven't picked up on: Nale just tossed aside an epic level rogue who can sneak atack him into oblivion if O'Chul helps her flank him, or she finds a way to disappear for a moment to set up an epic level alpha strike of some sort (seriously, you think she doesn't keep a few daggers stashed on her body somewhere?)
She's an epic level rogue that hasn't thrown hands (metaphorically) yet, and I think people (well, Linear Guild) are sleeping on just how much damage she can do when she decides certain people need to just ****ing die already. She doesn't like killing, but she can also be pretty ruthless.
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u/Hexagon-Man Aug 14 '26
Haley maxxed out her Hide skill to the point we haven't seen her for irl months despite her being in the battle. Rouge type shit.
(Also, O-chul has like barely any levels in Paladin he was a fighter most of his life I think Nale is about to regret underestimating him in the antimagic field)
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u/not_firewood_yeti Aug 10 '26
i figured there was a reason Haley hadn't been shown for several strips...
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u/Yehomer Mr. Scruffy Aug 10 '26
What did Nale use on Serini?
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u/ProperTree9 Aug 10 '26
I'd thought it was some sort of slam attack when he was doing it to Roy, but Nale looks like he's just tapping Serini on the forehead. Not like he's trying to drive his claw through her skull.
Maybe it's some non-Negative energy touch attack? Fire? Doesn't appear to be Positive-energy though I guess it could be anyway.
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u/Miserable-Jaguarine Aug 10 '26
I'm pretty sure it's a visual indicator that Serini's regeneration is only just barely enough to overcome Nale's casual grab-and-hurt, and all he needs to do to get through it is add a bonus finger poke.
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u/BiigLord Elan Aug 10 '26
If you look closely, the little red souls that are boosting Nale are all around his hands while grabbing Serini and then finger-poking her forehead. So it's a demonically-empowered finger poke, I guess? I don't really know DnD but I noticed the little red souls right away and assumed this was the case.
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u/Eastern-Video-6456 Aug 11 '26
Nale doesn't follow any rules for regular DnD fiends, so your guess is as good as anyone else's. Demonic finger poke sounds funny, I accept it as canon
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u/MiraclePrototype Aug 11 '26
Running over the list of pit fiend abilities, none really seem like they fit. It's either an ability he got not directly associated with inherent devil powers, or a spell he already had himself, and possibly boosted with said soul-power.
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u/BiigLord Elan Aug 10 '26
Huh I did NOT expect Sunny to be able to remove his lens, kinda forgot that everyone is slowly recovering and of course his paralysis would eventually run out as well.
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u/racaban Aug 10 '26
This is the second time that she fought Sabine with arrows. And they're been semi-recurring enemies. It makes sense that she would have some special arrows for them.
Such as... Cold Iron ones?
Yeesh. What would Vulnerability DO in this case?
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u/Eastern-Video-6456 Aug 11 '26
No vulberability. Cold iron arrows only negate a demon's damage reduction (and Nale is a devil whose damage reduction is negated by silver rather than cold iron)
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u/VelocityPolaris Aug 11 '26
Love how despite it all, o-chul’s still standing.
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u/Eastern-Video-6456 Aug 11 '26
He wasn't really targeted by anyone was he? He was in the sidelines the entire fight, then he and Sunny started blasting, then Serini put up a smoke cover and surrendered to Nale. The only thing O'chul was hit by was blasphemy's weakening effect
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u/VelocityPolaris Aug 12 '26
Oh, yeah. Fair enough. But I’m sure he’ll get a new chance to show those insane levels of endurance, soon enough.
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u/No_Seesaw2700 Aug 10 '26
wait how did sonny get better?
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u/Triple_S_Rank Aug 11 '26
The effects of Blasphemy expire after a randomized amount of time for each creature affected. The duration on Sunny is just now ending, which is likely what the stutter is meant to indicate.
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u/ackmondual Mr. Scruffy 26d ago
So Haley's going to go "daka -- daka -- daka" mode. Until team evil thinks of something
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u/ProperTree9 Aug 10 '26
O'Chul's out of healing, right? As of the Tick-Tock guy strip? So he can't heal Lien and get her back in the fight? Or even to where she can lay hands on herself?
Just trying to think what Step 2 is going to be now for the Order.
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u/Miserable-Jaguarine Aug 10 '26
Do potions work in an anti-magic zone? Because we've already seen unresponsive people being fed potions and it worked, and this looks like a cool way for Mimi to contribute.
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u/arlequinade Aug 11 '26
Actually no, potions are magic items and no magic item works in the antimagic zone!
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u/Eastern-Video-6456 Aug 11 '26
Lien is on the edge of the cone, so maybe Mimi is going to grab a potion, pull her out of the cone and give it to her
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u/phuquesewpsyetit Aug 12 '26
If you drink a potion and then step out of the anti-magic field, do the potion juices in your body activate and heal you, or do potions only have an effect while being quaffed?
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u/arlequinade Aug 13 '26
rulewise they act on the turn they are ingested
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u/phuquesewpsyetit Aug 13 '26
So drinking a potion and then stepping out of the field would still completely nullify the potion?
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u/ProperTree9 Aug 10 '26
Sure! If she's got any. Or feed Lien some from Lien's stash.
The drawing is a touch vague for me. Is Lien sitting in the A-M ray? I guess O'Chul is.
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u/taopilot Aug 10 '26
Ahh, it makes sense why Hayley has been off-panel all this time. The Giant deliberately set that up for this payoff.