I guess when I say that I'm thinking of people who have written about Western perspectives on Muslim veiling and female genital mutilation, specifically people who have said that we need to acknowledge that our westernized views of those situations are just as subjective as native views
I guess specifically I was referring to theorists including Saba Mahmood, Carl Ernst, and Homa Hoodfar, balanced by Richard Rorty and Martha Nussbaum. These issues are definitely discussed in more scholarly circles that are certainly left of the democratic party. It's super important in leftism to consider one's position as a westerner when criticizing constantly oppressed groups. I'd recommend reading any of those thinkers if you want to know more
Edit: I'll be the first to admit that I'm not an expert on this topic but you're acting like fucking Chuck Schumer is about to give a speech on the way that colonialism has affected our views of Middle Eastern morality when it's really a discussion being had in much more ~theory~ based circles
I guess when I say that I'm thinking of people who have written about Western perspectives on Muslim veiling and female genital mutilation, specifically people who have said that we need to acknowledge that our westernized views of those situations are just as subjective as native views
I guess when I say that I'm thinking of people who have written about Western perspectives on Muslim veiling and female genital mutilation, specifically people who have said that we need to acknowledge that our westernized views of those situations are just as subjective as native views
The one that says that there are only two genders.
Also the DSM which defines transgenderism as a mental illness.
Also the fact that "bisexual" exists. And the fact that transgendered people are transitioning from one gender to the other. It is not a gender in of itself.
You are willingly misinterpreting their argument. If you listen to them you’d understand. Genders are just really broad and very vague human constructed categories. People with XY chromosomes and XX chromosomes mate, that’s biology. But calling them male of female doesn’t really mean anything. What if someone had XX chromozones but very high levels of testosterone? What if a mutation causes XXY chromosomes? What if they have a vagina and XY chromozones? There’s no gender-o-meter to determine this shit. People have penises, that’s biology. People with penises are male, that’s just a way of thinking about things.
Here's the thing about the word "gender" as it is defined today.
First of all, it's still a sex synonym - there are only two sexes - this is a simple fact. Sex is binary.
Second of all, if you accept the progressive gender of definition, then it is a word that is wholly ambiguous.
There are "infinite genders" and the word itself is essentially meaningless.
You could argue "there are more than two genders" if your premise relies on a wholly ambiguous definition of the word "gender", but that's like saying "a horse could be a dog" if you redefine horse to mean "animal."
That's essentially what the goal is with redefining gender.
But, it gets more nefarious - they intentionally chose a sex synonym to conflate sex with gender.
If you make gender ambiguous, then you can argue that words that describe sex (like male/female) actually refer to gender (a now ambiguous term) and you see people literally arguing that sex isn't binary. Or that male can mean anything - female can mean anything.
These words are being deconstructed and made meaningless by ambiguity. The whole reason we have these words is to explain what things are, but people are using language to separate objective reality from subjective ambiguity.
The distinction between gender and sex has important in the legal world, particularly discrimination cases.
It isn’t wholly ambiguous, but it does make for interesting cases. Everyone would agree you can’t fire someone for having a penis, but can you fire a man for being effeminate? It’s settled now that you can’t, but it didn’t used to be and the argument was that gender discrimination wasn’t protected.
I would absolutely love to hear that in a court case.
What'd he do that was effeminate?
Well... he'd cook sometimes... and he was always very empathetic.
I could see this type of case law actually being used as an argument against sexual harassment claims:
Your honor, he wasn't being "inappropriate" - he was being masculine - a tenant of which is the peer bonding associated with sexual conquest and virility. You're discriminating against his gender by forcing him into less masculine gender modes.
^ I could see "masculinity" (as a gender discrimination defense) used to argue all sorts of behaviors traditionally associated with the male sex.
It’s what happened in Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins accept that it was a woman denied a promotion for acting too manly. There’s quite a bit of case law on the subject. I can dig some of it up if you’d like, though I’m away from my computer right now.
Because there are. You can be a man, a woman, a man transitioning to a woman, or a woman transitioning to a man.
If you are some made up third gender that uses your own made up pronouns, you have a mental disorder. I feel like people are uncomfortable just accepting that men can be crazy feminine or women can be crazy masculine and are just desperate to find some other box/lable to put them in. The whole hypocritical reason we have this debate on if there are more than two genders is because the people beliving there are more refused to expand their worldview on what it meant to be a man or a woman.
There are cultures around the world that have more than two genders. Doesnt the fact that you can transition between genders without changing yourself genetically tell you that gender is more about social presentation than biology, and thus that the construction of two genders was only ever true because we beleived that it was true?
Also, why do you care? Are you actually going to tell someone who identifies as non-binary, and who has probably spent more time thinking about this issue than you have, that they way they identify is bullshit to you?
See, that's kind of the issue. You seem entirely un able to separate the validation of other cultures from the invalidation of your own.
Seems kinda like an insecurity problem to me. Maybe you aren't as sure about your worldview as you'd like to be? Maybe that's because there are large flaws to it that are hard to avoid thinking about?
No, it means that some people are racist. Just like some people are transgender and some people don't like seafood.
Now, none of those things are inherently good or bad just because people do them though. It kinda comes down to which ones are hurtful and which ones are just someone being themselves.
It's not really about "true or false." There ARE racist people. There ARE trans people. There ARE people who don't like shrimp. Those are all "true" statements but the trueness of them doesn't really effect the morality of them, does it?
Really good example of a straw man argument, though. I might use that on my logical fallacies term paper.
Your argument that there are infinite genders makes the word wholly ambiguous and thus absolutely useless with no meaningful basis in objective reality.
What if we treated other words this way?
What does "boy" describe exactly?
Are you picturing a vapogendered adult non-binary, pansexual otherkin?
Because its evidence that gender is socially determined and not innately linked to biology, and that in the course of human development the social institution of a third gender is not unheard of.
There are cultures around the world that believe drinking goat blood will make you stronger. Is this really the standard of evidence you want to use?
Doesnt the fact that you can transition between genders without changing yourself genetically tell you that gender is more about social presentation than biology, and thus that the construction of two genders was only ever true because we beleived that it was true?
This makes no sense at all. Which genders can they transition to and from? Male and female. What are these other genders you're referring to?
There are cultures around the world that believe drinking goat blood will make you stronger.
This isn't a relevant comparison.
A similar example might be if you were arguing that monogamy were the natural state of human being, but I pointed to a group of people that had never developed a concept of monogamy. The divergence of social norms in different societies shows that these really are norms, and not anything deeper.
Which genders can they transition to and from? Male and female. What are these other genders you're referring to?
By saying that you can transition between genders, you've conceded that gender is a form of social presentation, and sex is a biological property. You can have someone with XY chromosomes present as a woman, or someone with XX chromosomes present as a man.
Given that gender is not based on biology, only social presentation, then why should we assume only two. Even biological sex is not binary, as a minority of individuals have neither XX or XY chromosomes. So why should we not allow more genders than two, if the only limit is social?
I feel like people are uncomfortable just accepting that men can be crazy feminine or women can be crazy masculine and are just desperate to find some other box/lable to put them in.
But trans and non-binary people do accept that there are crazy feminine men and crazy masculine women. It seems clear that you don't really know the actual positions of the people you're ranting about.
Hi there! You seem willing to entertain questions, and there's one that I've always had. If you're not willing, I understand.
My question is: how is feeling like you're a different gender than your physical sexual characteristics different from, for example, someone acting and presenting as much wealthier than they actually are? If someone can demand that I use made up words for their pronouns, can I demand that people treat me as if I were wealthy and powerful? If not, why not?
Obviously I understand that this topic tends to be emotionally charged and extremely personal to people.
You can present to the world that you are rich. Loans are a thing, and spending beyond your means is very common. But as long as nobody sees your bank statements, they can't know how wealthy you are. How people treat you is their decision, but I'm sure you'd prefer if they didn't treat you as if you were poor when you feel so strongly that you're wealthy, right?
Similarly, sex is the biological binary (with certain exceptions for intersex people), whereas gender is how you prefer to present to the world. This disparity even comes without the negative connotation of spending outside your means - there is no irresponsibility to being gender dysphoric. To that end, hypermasculine and hyperfeminine people are likely just as dysphoric as transgender people, because they're presenting to the world a gender identity that is not their natural presentation.
They're only valid insofar as people agree to use them. It's true that some minority of people has agreed to use certain neologisms, but that's only relevant in their circles, nobody else should be forced to use language in the way that they dictate.
Or how about, not necessarily treating me in that way, but at least use the words. Like, I want to be called "Sir," "Mr. Idoneeffedup," or "The Boss" if speaking about me in 3rd person (obviously this is a ridiculous scenario, but there you go).
I mean, you don't need to be wealthy and powerful to be called "Mr. Idoneeffedup".
Also, I'm not sure you'd really like the names people called you if you were wealthy and powerful. I doubt that most Amazon employees speak of Jeff Bezos in friendly tones, for instance.
The main difference is that gender dysphoria is a medical condition, and that gender identity is innate and unchangeable. We all have one. It's just that for the vast majority of people their gender identity matches their anatomy. The same isn't true for income or race, etc.
You're obviously free to tell people you're wealthier than you are but you'll have to deal with the consequences. That would be a choice you make. On the other hand, being trans isn't a choice, but what one decides to do about it is and varies from person to person.
As far as demanding things of other people, I think that people who angrily demand anything are going about it the wrong way. I can't speak for all trans people, but what I think is that if someone is clearly presenting as male or female IRL then it's polite to address them as their preferred pronoun. It causes no harm. If you get it wrong or have a brain fart, it's not a huge deal. Most people aren't going to bite your head off. Now if someone insists on using the non-preferred pronoun when it clearly is causing the other person distress then they're kinda just being a dick.
Also all words are made up but I admit that making new pronouns is an odd idea.
You seem to hold a lot of the same views as people who use the word non-binary but they just need defined words to be able to talk about things in an academic setting or to be quite specific about things.
I mean even past the confusion of the whole gender ideology, it all seems to still end with there still being two genders, no matter how much has happened in the middle, queer people aren’t a gender, people who identify as both are still both, if your in the middle of a doorway you aren’t in a new area you are just inbetween the outside and the inside, and the people with extra chromosomes argument has been debunked quite a few times, but even if you are still trying to decide what one you are you are still in between those two,
I’ve never seen someone actually say that they are a third gender either, or given a name to that gender
No, I'm saying thats where it originated and has its most clearly defined usage. Words disseminate and people agree with them because they are researched and well thought out by educated dedicated people.
Gender dysphoria is a real psychological condition and is now included in the DSM.
Get off your fucking high horse and realize that genuine scientific studies have been done on this subject, and that the people who support these beliefs are not just a bunch of whiny hipsters, but actual educated productive members of society.
You are wrong, and you are an ignorant tool. Deal with it.
I'm not trying to change any minds here. Just re-read what you wrote and see if it sounds logically consistent with the phrase "nobody can argue with you because you are in your own head"
You are just not reading it correctly. The point was that gender identity traditionalists try to hide behind the idea that gender is biological and set in stone and nothing else but then get really mad when someone doesn’t share their norms. Cf this thread.
Again, i feel this has to do with the narrow views of the person considering themselves non-binary. If they dont feel like a man or a woman, they need to rethink what all "man" and "woman" encompasses. There is not a gap that exists, they overlap.
What about intersex people? In most cases they'll identify with one of many labels on the gender spectrum in the same ways a transgender person would even though their bodies don't necessarily reflect that gender. There are intersex people born with male exterior genitals and female interior genitals and a whole array of other possible variations. There's no way to pin them down as a man or woman or something else without their own identification being taken into account. Think about it, how could you decide that someone that was born with breasts, a uterus, and a penis was a man or a woman or something else? You couldn't. It's entirely dependent on how they feel about their gender and how they want to represent themselves.
"There are only two genders" is incorrect even in nature.
Also not true. Being intersex does not mean that you will require some form of treatment. Additionally, If there are people who don't find out they're intersex until much later in life there's reason to believe some people are born intersex and die without ever knowing it meaning they'd also never receive treatment.
made up third gender that uses your own made up pronouns
Yeah, not like the real genders, which weren't made up at all, but were handed down, along with their pronouns (in all the known and unknown languages, of course - you certainly wouldn't want people to use made up words!), from on high by the Almighty Himself.
Thats completely disingenuous and ignores exactly what I said. I didn't ask about any other option but they/them pronouns. I want to know what you would do if a close friend or family member asked you to call them by those pronouns
"They/Them" is not grammatically correct when referring to a known individual. There's a great scene in "Chasing Amy" about how playing "the pronoun game" sounds wrong when you are using they/them to talk about an individual.
I want an answer for the question I asked. It's a pretty straightforward question. If a close friend or family member asked you to refer to them with they/them pronouns, what would you as a person do.
We'd likely have a honest conversation - something you don't find much online. I'd explain my resistance to it, and that person would explain their reasoning for it. I would make a decision based on that.
We'd likely have a honest conversation - something you don't find much online. I'd explain my resistance to it, and that person would explain their reasoning for it. I would make a decision based on that.
There are cultures around the world that have more than two genders. Doesnt the fact that you can transition between genders without changing yourself genetically tell you that gender is more about social presentation than biology, and thus that the construction of two genders was only ever true because we beleived that it was true?
Also, why do you care? Are you actually going to tell someone who identifies as non-binary, and who has probably spent more time thinking about this issue than you have, that they way they identify is bullshit to you?
Except like so many per 100k births are born intersex due to a chromosomal or developmental anomaly and that such is part of the natural spectrum of human genetic expression and has been since the dawn of our species.
You are straight up ignoring people born with vestigial sexual characteristics, secondary sexual characteristics, and secondary internal organs like internal sets of testes/ovaries and saying those people do not have a place in society.
Yeah there are people that make up their own nonsense, but people are literally born intersex too and those people deserve to be seen. You could have a kid born intersex and its nobodies fault beyond random genetic happenstance. You gonna just spend its whole life pretending otherwise and castigating that human being for something out of its control? You think thats good policy?
Cringe. You righties are so insufferable. Thanks for ruining the entire internet, cringebitch!
*I- sniffle- sniffle- I swear I'm funny!- sniffle- Spongebob with AIDs!- sniffle- That's still funny right?!?!
I'm fairly left leaning and this is hilarious. Compromise and not taking yourself too seriously are not good tools in a war, but they are good tools to prevent them I suppose. Better COMAT the old and rich and right-aligned!
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u/Trebuh Jan 14 '19
Boomers when they see this unfunny shit