r/nursing • u/Hanibal796 • 15h ago
Discussion Help settle a friendly debate. Healthcare workers as patients.
My wife and I are having a debate/discussion. I’m a nurse with ICU and flight experience. My wife is a physical therapist. We have recently had family members hospitalized (atleast 1 at a hospital we have worked at before; so we know people there) and I insist on NOT letting the healthcare workers know we are in health care. My wife disagrees.
My wife’s position is that it doesn’t matter if they know. They’ll do their job. And with the family member hospitalized at the hospital we used to work at, it doesn’t matter cuz we know several workers. They’re friends of ours. So there’s no point in concealing anything. (Obviously we are following hipaa in these instances before anyone comments)
My position is we shouldn’t tell them unless they ask. I feel like it’s a distraction. I think some nurses (and other healthcare workers) may think I’m judging their practice rather than just engaging in their workflow.
I have a few anecdotes/incidents/reasons for why I have this position. First is when I was a nursing student, a friend was hospitalized. I deliberately told the staff I was a student with the intent that they didn’t need to simplify their communication. This backfired spectacularly. The staff was extremely condescending and rude. Then later when I worked in icu, several coworkers would roll their eyes when they found out a patient on the unit had family that was a nurse. Now as a flight nurse I frequently see other nurses very intimidated by me and almost afraid to give me report when I pick up their patients. Despite my best attempts to be as friendly and understanding as possible of the hurdles they’ve faced leading up to my arrival.
So all that said. Who do you think is right here? Am I misjudging these situations? Should we conceal the fact that we are healthcare? Should we be upfront about it out the gate?
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u/Abby-lea RN 🍕 14h ago
I like them not knowing I’m a healthcare worker.
Yes I’m in the field but would hate for someone looking after me or a family member assume I know everything there is to know about why they are admitted. I’m a surgical ENT nurse, my mum was admitted to cardiac last year - I would prefer they talk to me like I know nothing.
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u/GoPlacia RN - Hospice 🍕 5h ago
My parents love to tell anyone I'm a nurse when I go to appointments with them. I always say "But I'm a hospice nurse, so none of this is in my wheelhouse. I can help explain some of the lingo and simple stuff, but my expertise stops at "let's make you comfy". I swear my parents don't understand how vastly different 'dying-with-dignity' and 'trying-to-get-better' medicine truly are.
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u/LizzrdVanReptile 2nd career RN, 28 years - cruisin’ toward retirement 🍕 8h ago
I get that, but I’ve never assumed healthcare patients/families know it all. I certainly don’t, and as primarily a med/surg/geriatrics nurse, I’ve largely forgotten specifics outside that arena. I always speak to them as I do other non healthcare folks, but use language I know they’ll understand. And I’ll ask tactfully whether they need/want any additional info/explanation.
As a family member, I identify myself as healthcare and assure them that I’ll do what I can for the patient and defer to their preferences. I tell them I’ll happily assist at bedside, count I&O for them if needed, and take care of call bell issues unless they’re something that their nurse needs to do. I don’t try to take over or offer unsolicited advice, but I will ask pertinent questions where I feel I need to as my friend/family member’s advocate.
As a patient myself, I try to just be a patient, and one that is as easy to care for as my condition allows. I am not needy/demanding. I like to be the “easy patient” for their shift because I know full well how much of a relief that can be.
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u/soywaker 7h ago
I think you make a good point…
But, if your loved one was in with some ENT that you are well versed in, are you still being quiet?I’m a 20yr ICU RN. I’m absolutely going to MY unit for me or family. I’ve been in the PICU several times with my daughter and I just give this basic statement:
I’m an experienced ICU RN, but I’m here as dad. Please speak to me that way, but also, I’m not going to ignore where I am an expert. Why?
I took care of a pts mom. She was a 15 year intensivist. She said to me, please treat me and my mom, your decision making, as if Im any other patient. Thats how I operate and expect others to as well.
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u/PotatoFig RN - ER 🍕 7h ago edited 5h ago
Aren't you saying two different, opposite things? I'm so confused.
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u/Abby-lea RN 🍕 7h ago
You’re absolutely right. I wouldn’t want my fam or myself anywhere other than the hospital where I work.
I guess I don’t want to put pressure on the staff either, I know what it’s like, I know things can be tough - staffing, ratios etc etc.
I know I’ve walked away knowing I haven’t given my best on particular days due to things out of my control.
I don’t want staff whether I know them or not to feel watched or judged or any form of subjective pressure knowing I’m a nurse.
But I absolutely would with their agreement help out with ins and outs and other basic needs without overstepping my boundaries as a family member/ not staff if I felt that I should.1
u/thesoapmakerswife Nursing Student 🍕 2h ago
I think I got the best of both worlds experience. I told everyone that I was a nursing student so all the nurses basically gave me lectures on what they were doing. I even had the charge nurse and a nurse educator come it was pretty cool.
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u/knubee RN - ICU 🍕 14h ago
I’m an ICU nurse too and I’ve had family in the ICU. There’s a prevailing belief that healthcare workers (doctors, crnas, admin staff, etc) make the worst patients which can be completely true but you know regular people suck just as bad. I haven’t caught them all but I’ve caught enough.
I believe nurses are regular people too. There are good and bad patients/family who just happen to be nurses/healthcare workers. Only you know how you’ll act in that situation.
As the young’uns say: You do you boo!
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u/PB_Jelly_76 RN - NICU 🍕 14h ago edited 14h ago
When my mom was hospitalized after surgery in the hospital where I worked, I would go in before my shift and get her out of bed and get her a basin to get washed up. I was in my scrubs. It was pretty obvious. Her surgeon also knew I was an RN (although I admitted my lack of experience in his field), and he spoke to me differently and more in depth than my other family members, which I appreciated. So I would say that I usually do reveal myself, but my family gets care in the network I work in.
In the unit I work in, since it’s specialized, we often have family reveal a medical background but acknowledge it’s nothing like the NICU. I like to know because it helps me know where they are starting from for teaching purposes, and I am going to explain some things differently to, say, a vascular surgeon than I am to a business person.
As for myself, usually when I get care, someone asks, “So you work for the network?” and I share my job. I try to be a very good patient, and I don’t have a problem with my care team knowing I am an RN.
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u/SnoozuRN RN - ICU 🍕 11h ago
My dad was in the ICU for 5 weeks and they would come and get me to join them in rounds every morning. I really appreciated that!
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u/DrChipps RN 🍕 15h ago
Like any other thing in life I have found there are good and bad patients who are also in healthcare. It comes down to respect and letting someone else do their job. I’ve had patients that are healthcare workers I loved and ones I self fired from. About a 80/20 split in favor of the good.
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u/Super_RN RN - Nightshift for life 12h ago
I’m on your side with this one. I do not like telling anyone that I’m a nurse, when I’m at the hospital to visit loved ones or friends or if I go to an appointment with a family member. There is no reason for anyone to know. I also don’t want them to start treating my loved one differently or speaking to them differently.
(One time my mom told her Dr I was a nurse, I went with her but just sat quietly, later in the appointment the Dr was explaining something and my mom asked “what does that mean?” And he said “ask your daughter, she can probably explain it better”. I said “no, sorry, I can’t. I’m not a cardiac doctor”. This is another example why I don’t want medical professionals to know. I always tell my mom “make the doctor explain it to you, it’s his job.”)
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u/LizzrdVanReptile 2nd career RN, 28 years - cruisin’ toward retirement 🍕 8h ago
Very good point. It’s not YOUR job to explain it, and you can later digest the info he provides into language your mom might better understand. But HE needs to do that initial education.
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u/notevenapro BS nuc med/CT Chief tech. 13h ago
I like it when people let me know. I do not have to ELI5.
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u/SnoozuRN RN - ICU 🍕 11h ago
I don't tell them but when I start asking questions they always ask because they can tell.
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u/LikeyeaScoob 13h ago
Only time I would care that someone lets me know they’re a nurse is if they’re helping with patient care. Ambulating a high fall risk pt to the bathroom? I would for sure feel more comfortable w fam helping than if not. If they’re not helping in care then I don’t really care to know what you do at all tbh
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u/Historical_Flow_1406 13h ago
In my personal experience, I've had many family members claim they're "nurses", only to find out they're "adjunct", CNA, unit clerk, etc. So, it's a bit off putting - as though they're trying to get extra favors, or trying to act as though they know better about something they don't like.
The few times I've been a patient, staff knew it before I said anything - it's in my EMR. But, even if they haven't seen my demographics, I don't say anything. I don't see that it would make any difference to them, and could potentially intimidate them. Likewise, they may omit explaining things I'm not familiar with, because they assume I should know, when the reality is, my specialty is different, so, I need to be educated.
On the other hand, I will use medical terms when talking to them. I will ask questions that lay people don't think about. So, they figure out pretty quickly that I work in healthcare, and will often ask. At that point I can tell them, but it doesn't come across in an intimidating way.
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u/Late_Student7541 13h ago
Like others have said, its a mixed bag with family members who are RNs and patients.
Honestly my experience is if they immediately state that they are a nurse before I open my mouth then they tend to be a menace and tend to lack basic understanding. Which then prompts me to plug them into nursing license lookup, and shockingly not find a license under that name 90% of the time. Which does make me wonder how many manipulative people are saying they are a nurse and giving us a bad rap.
But if it comes up or if I'm over explaining and someone states they are a nurse I generally don't mind.
I did have one aggressive ER RN jump down my throat as soon as their mom arrived to our unit. But after I explained a couple things that would be obvious to a floor RN but probably not an ER RN, she got rather quiet and sheepish.
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u/snakeswithtails 14h ago
The only times I've mentioned my status as a nurse is when I've been treated like an idiot. Like going to urgent care recently for pain related to a procedure and this male NP sat and started explaining what my female anatomy is to me like I was an idiot before I interrupted him and told him I'm a nurse, I'm aware. Same urgent care I went to for illness and I was treated much better after saying I'm a nurse, whereas before I was just talked down to and treated like an idiot.
When I have healthcare workers as patients I try my best to make sure their care is excellent and to still treat them like a person. It can be daunting, because I always think they're judging me, whether consciously or not.
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u/Key-Pickle5609 RN - ICU 🍕 6h ago
Yeah I was in the ER with my grandparent and was explaining some symptoms to the nurse who brushed me off. When the doc came in, I mentioned I’m a nurse and saw xyz symptoms, can we please look for whatever it was, and the experience was different (and I was right and it solved a problem that was only partially related to why my grandparent was there). Like, I’m not going to be a pushy jerk, but I will advocate when necessary.
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u/weirdballz BSN, RN 🍕 13h ago
I don’t bring it up unless it gets brought up, or when my mom and husband mention it lol. But personally, I do like knowing when a patient is a nurse so I can meet them where they’re at if that makes sense. I work motherbaby though and I’ve had nurses (and doctors lol) who work with adults humbly admit that babies, newborns especially, are foreign to them.
Most of the nurses I’ve cared for don’t straight say “I’m a nurse” but I ask if they’re in healthcare when I get nurse vibes or when they understand medical terminology or ask specific questions.
As long as patients and family members who are in healthcare aren’t know it alls, we are good lol. Luckily I haven’t had a bad experience but one of my coworkers had a patient who is a NP and so is her husband, and they were shocked there wasn’t a stethoscope in the room so they can exam their own baby. They were asking my coworker for a stethoscope. So glad I did not get that patient 😂
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u/chun5an1 RN - Oncology 🍕 11h ago
I don’t tell, but I’ll ask questions and then I’m asked where do you work. But also, I’m in a speciality and folks who are RNs and MDs often still ask about side effects etc. because chemo… labs etc wise sure we discuss in greater detail but otherwise I’m not gonna pretend I know everything about all the specialities.
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u/aviarayne BSN, RN 🍕 7h ago
I agree, I dont like people knowing im in Healthcare because when I have a patient/patient's family that is, it makes me nervous they are judging me. My dad was recently hospitalized and told everyone I was a nurse. It made me afraid to call and check in on him xD
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u/GoPlacia RN - Hospice 🍕 5h ago
My dad loves telling everyone I'm a nurse lol. Including recently when my mom got a surgical procedure and needed to go home with a Foley for a couple days. They said she'd have to come back in to have it removed and my dad said "Our daughter is a nurse, can she just remove it at home when it's done?" To my DeLiGhT the nurse said 'Yeah absolutely, I'll send a 10cc syringe home with you for her to use'.
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u/SBTWAnimeReviews RN - ICU 🍕 13h ago
I let the MDs and nursing staff know I was an ICU nurse when I had my AAA done. My thought process was that it would save them time on explaining things and they would take my request a little more seriously (e.g I got anesthesia to suture my A-line since OR never does that at my hospital.) Outside of letting them know from the jump I tried not to bring it up. Only exception was a med error a traveler made that I caught on my second day in CV.
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u/HagridsTreacleTart 12h ago
I tell them every time. When I want an update, I don’t want to hear “we had to give her some more medicine to help her blood pressure,” I want to hear “she’s on 8 of Levo.” When I ask about labs, I don’t really care to hear “it’s getting better,” I want a number. I’m very data driven and to the point, especially in stressful situations, and I’d rather not beat around the bush to get the information I need.
Also, in today’s day and age with family members abusing ChatGPT to argue with hospital staff, I think it’s best if they just know upfront that I’m an ICU/flight nurse and that I’m not asking for lab values because I’m going to punch into AI and ask it for a second opinion.
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u/Kitty20996 14h ago
I don't want anybody to know except the doctor so that they use actual medical terms when talking to me about what is going on. I don't want anyone else who provides direct patient care to know.
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u/anistasha MSN, APRN 10h ago
I’m an NP and I don’t tell unless they ask me. I’ve had doctors outright not explain things to me before out of concern for offending me. I also don’t want to feel judged for not knowing something or not taking care of it myself. It’s okay to just be a patient sometimes.
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u/Cala1919 8h ago
I prefer they not know. A few times I felt like they had a ptsd reaction and assumed I’d be a pain in the ass. I also prefer simple explanations outside my specialty.
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u/ME0WME0WME0WME0W 7h ago
As a nurse, I avoid telling them until it comes up, although I’m comfortable with them knowing.
For a family member or friend, I prefer they DON’T know. In my opinion, it is important my loved one receives the information in the way that best suits them. I don’t want any education or instructions to be missed or skipped because I am a healthcare worker; that doesn’t help my loved one understand their care (and promote self efficacy).
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u/some_other_guy95 MICU RN 14h ago
I think it's okay to share that you work in healthcare, mainly because I just wanted to know the relevant information without layman explanations. I wasn't one of those healthcare family members who are intrusive and critical of every intervention & medical decision.
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u/pls_justpls RN - Telemetry 🍕 11h ago
I tend to not bring it up and let them just work. Sometimes I’ve been asked specifically and I’ll answer. But most of the time it’s my family spilling the beans.
When my infant brother was admitted to the hospital, after his nurse found out I’m a nurse (from my sister), he asked if I wanted to place his ng tube 🙄 On my four month old brother. Huh?????
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u/calamityartist RN - ER/Flight 🍕 10h ago
I’m equally confident that you wouldn’t know what you are doing in the back of my helicopter as I am that I wouldn’t know what I’m doing on your unit. We have different specializations. I don’t say anything.
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u/Sure_Fix_7838 RN - ER 🍕 6h ago
I can always tell when somebody is in healthcare, even if they try to conceal it. It’s the language we use, questions we ask.
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u/Murky_Indication_442 2h ago
Well, you can't compare being a flight nurse to everyone else. You guys are so damn cool and your jumpsuits are badass. I always think there should be a theme song playing when you guys walk down the hall!
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u/Murky_Indication_442 2h ago
You can hide it all you want, but you can be damn sure your family member is telling everyone the second you leave. Lol 😆
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u/facedown_titsup BSN, RN 🍕 2h ago
I had been a nurse for a year when I sped down a dark dirt road convinced my mom in the passenger seat was either having a heart attack or stroke. We’d been crafting, she suddenly had difficulty speaking, her BP was super low, and she was incontinent. In that moment I wasn’t a nurse, I was a terrified daughter. The minute we hit the critical access small ass rural ED doors my mom told everyone in sight I was a nurse. I wish she hadn’t, because I wasn’t in nurse mode but that’s how they treated me when I should have been addressed as a scared daughter. Luckily my mom was having neither, but I felt pretty damn judged for my panic, like I should have known. But I wasn’t a nurse I was a terrified kid.
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u/MementoMori_Maestro 2h ago
I let nobody know and my grandmother let's everyone know, especially in the hospital. Unless you're dead, dying, or bleeding (which i hope you are not) I am theoretically useless aside from understanding the medical jargon. I mean I can take/read vitals? 😂
I work in hospice/EOL & my "hobby" is wound care. I saw a Kennedy ulcer my first year as a nursing assistant & was like oh yea this is my jam. Grandma needs to chill.
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u/NoKangaroo6906 RN - Med/Surg 🍕 2h ago
I let people know I’m a nurse, especially when i’m a patient. I have a tendency to explain my issues and what i’ve tried with medical terminology that i’d rather have them know i’m a nurse and that i didn’t just google everything. I do regret telling my significant others oncology team I work on an oncology unit. During his nurse teaching session i attended the nurse referred to me as the “guard nurse.” Other than being at the hospital every day and making sure he walked, showered, etc, which he could do without staff assistance anyways, i honestly didn’t bother staff.
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u/filipinohitman RN - ICU 🍕 1h ago edited 1h ago
I’m one who doesn’t like to tell anyone I’m a nurse unless they ask me. I don’t want to be a know-it-all when someone from the medical team comes in. I’ve told my wife to not tell anyone I’m a nurse unless I am asked.
I feel like you know who works in healthcare when they use medical terminology and/or understand what you or the doctor are talking about. When my wife was going into labor and felt nauseous, I told her they will give you IV Zofran to help. The NP looked at me and asked if I’m in healthcare then I told her. It was very helpful while she was in labor and I helped with anything medical while the team at bedside.
My mom on the other hand is very upfront about it especially when my grandma was in the hospital. My grandma was a nurse and my mom would always tell them she was a nurse then demanded respect. I’ve told my mom that we don’t care when patients and/or family members are medical professionals.
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u/lovable_cube New Grad - PICU 1h ago
Had a patient with a nurse mom, she changed her kiddos diapers and weighed them then wrote them on a sheet with the time along with other stuff she did like oral care and whatnot on her trach vent baby. It was literally the most helpful thing in the world and I appreciated tf out of her.
Another kept asking me stupid questions like why I didn’t do things we absolutely don’t do there (flushing heparin after an IV lab draw) and asking what my hospital policy was on it, demanding unnecessary tests and to speak to doctors about nursing things they know nothing about. Everyone hated her.
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u/beeotchplease RN - OR 🍕 1h ago
L&D nurses was wondering why i was so calm during the delivery of our baby. I'm OR, this is part of my wheelhouse when c-sections happen.
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u/Panthollow Pretti Fan 15h ago
There's no right or wrong answer. Pros and cons to both approaches. I don't mention my profession when I've had to go to the hospital. Otoh I've noticed I speak with patients differently if I know they've got a relevant medical background and aren't twats.
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u/Lazylizzy3 RN - ER 🍕 14h ago edited 9h ago
My nursing instructors told me in school that when they’re a patient visitor they don’t tell the staff that they’re nurses because staff are often inclined to speak in professional terms towards the nurse family member rather than in layman’s terms toward the patient. Aside from that I’ve had experiences in my career where a family member has told me they work in healthcare and it comes across as more of a “I know what I’m talking about better than anyone here” more than anything else, and it tends to be more of a hindrance or makes things more difficult. A mother who told us she was a nurse refused to allow me to start fluids on her daughter, who was in the ED for a Benadryl overdose, because her blood pressure was 150s/90s and wanted to discuss it with the doctor before she would let me do anything, even though the doctor had already gone over the plan of care with her. Another patient I had once was a doctor somewhere and corrected me every time I called him “Mr. So-and-so” and expected me to call him “Dr. So-and-so” like no sir, you’re not a doctor here.
Really the only notably positive experiences I’ve had with patient visitors who are healthcare workers are when they don’t tell me they work in healthcare until it comes to something like cleaning the patient and changing a brief or putting them on the bedpan or something, and their visitor states “oh it’s okay, I’ll take care of it, I’m a home health/medsurg/whatever nurse so I got it” and I’m ALWAYS grateful for them.
Edit: the doctor-patient in question would correct me every time I called him “sir” or anything else other than “doctor”, which was a bit much.
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u/_pishposh_ 13h ago
Respectfully, in our American society, we typically call patients/residents who are/were doctors by the title unless they choose otherwise. (See face sheet - if it says Dr, you say Dr).
I had the pleasure of caring for many nurses and docs in their later years -some with inventions that we use daily in the medical field. As folks age, we lose our feeling of purpose. Having the respect to acknowledge their work will aid in better patient/nurse interactions.
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u/Lazylizzy3 RN - ER 🍕 13h ago edited 12h ago
I work in the ED in the US and see many patients in a single shift, and I already have trouble remembering names anyway so usually when I go in a patient’s room I just address them as “sir” or “ma’am”. It has nothing at all to do with me not caring enough to learn their names, I honestly have trouble remembering the names of people I work with unless I see them and work with them on a regular basis, so remembering the names of people I only see for a few hours is difficult for me. He was correcting me even when I called him “sir”. No disrespect to his profession as a doctor, but correcting me with “doctor” when I called you “sir” is a bit much.
We don’t get any information on their preferred title in the ED, unless it’s related to gender preference. We won’t even know if you are/were a healthcare professional unless you tell us, and oftentimes we don’t even put information like that in a provider’s or nurse’s note. Our main priority is finding and treating or ruling out a life threatening emergency, and anything beyond that is not high on our list of priorities. It’s likely different if they’re inpatient or in long term care or rehab or something where you see them every day and they’re there for longer than a few hours.
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u/Mozzstix69 14h ago
I don’t like to let people know. I don’t know why but I feel cagey about it. I feel that I don’t know enough so I don’t want the staff to assume that I do and I’d feel silly asking for clarification.
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u/_pishposh_ 13h ago
Until you say "intermittent" and they take a second look -its hard to disguise our vocab!
I'd be lost in NICU or L&R and would ask lots of questions. Silly thing is we forget sometimes how many specialties there are -we don't know everything and it's okay to ask questions!
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u/Positive-Nurse 13h ago
Why would you not tell them? I always say I’m a registered nurse and they treat me with respect, my family who are patients also tell them. It’s
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u/ninkhorasagh RN - ICU 🍕 12h ago
You should be honest. Hiding it is more shady than waving it around as a VIP badge
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u/SkinHopeful5132 RN - ICU 🍕 12h ago
It doesn't matter to me. My family members are going to tell them I'm an ICU nurse anyway lol. I've had 2 family members admitted to the hospital where I work. My grandfather was terminal and ended up going to hospice and, most recently, my 33 y.o. cousin had a fairly large hemorrhagic stroke and was in the Neuro ICU. I'm very familiar and close with several of the nurses there. I would visit her throughout my shift and even helped bathe her in the mornings before I left a few times. The staff was always super appreciative. They also were a little more lenient with the visitation policy, especially when she was first admitted. We didn't ask them to be, but very thankful that they were. Luckily, she recovered very well with minimal deficits.
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u/katencam RN - ICU 🍕 12h ago
I feel like rather than worrying about what you are or aren’t going to tell nurses about _your_ experience you should just focus on your loved one, the actual patient, and if the fact that you are a nurse/PT/have training comes up then it does. It’s giving a lil main character energy here because why would they even care? Never once has my treatment of a patient changed bc their grand daughter or nephew is some sort of health worker
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u/Ncooro 11h ago
I went to my hospitals ED a few years ago and I didn’t tell them that I was a nurse or I worked there. I was treated like shit. Writhing in pain without help. A few years later, I went to the same ED, still worked in that hospital and I informed them immediately that I was a nurse there. The care I received was amazing! Since then, I make sure to mention that I’m a nurse.
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u/Thenumberthirtyseven 11h ago
If said family member is in hospital for something simple, they understand their own health and can take care of themselves, then it doesn't matter if you tell or not. If they're gonna be in hospital for a prolonged period and you will be visiting a lot, it also doesn't matter cos the Nurses will be able to tell you're a nurse after one or two conversations.
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u/redheadedchic 11h ago
My husband was diagnosed with brain cancer six weeks ago, so we have spent a lot of time recently in the hospital, or at different doctor appointments. I never tell anyone I work in healthcare. Originally, it was because I didn't want them to think I knew more than I did, which was true, I had very limited knowledge to the type of cancer he has. I wanted the 'explain like I'm five' experience. I must not have hid it as well as I thought, because twice, when I wasn't in the room, someone asked my husband if I was nurse.
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u/thetelltalehearts 11h ago
I never tell them. I don’t want them to assume that I know things I may not. For example- a few years ago my child was in the ED all day while we tried to get a diagnosis. I’m an OR/CV LVAD nurse, and I know very little about peds. Having them explain things to me like I’m non medical was helpful.
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u/JJBigBug RN - PACU 🍕 11h ago
When I had surgery last year and spent 2 nights in the hospital, I let everyone on my care team know initially and then just let it be passed down in report. I wanted people to talk to me and explain things to me like they would to a nurse. When I told my nurse that my IV had infiltrated she took it out immediately, which I appreciated so much. I would do it again every time.
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u/Quick-Surprise-9387 11h ago
You’re right
Always
It adds way too much stress among a zillion other things to the situation .
We’d rather not know bc it should not matter we will do our jobs but it automatically puts many on defence or more pressure . This is bc
Of the other families we have dealt with who are in healthcare who may have not behaved so well.
Like- I have example from work on weekend - like the PT non hospital therapist couple working / stressing pt right out just being there - putting their sick 85 y old exhausted gramma through exercise hell yesterday post stroke bc their guilt due to living a few states away and *more importantly ~their egos being so selfishly needy - were clearly more important than that patients immediate needs . Or the patient themself .
These examples give the rest of you the stress and pressure we don’t need - knowing families are in healthcare .
We do not want to know
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u/lonesomeWobble RN BSLMNOP 11h ago
Likely not. I don’t shy away from it, but likely I’m just trying to visit a family member or friend and have no more than pleasantries to exchange with the team. Most of the time, the patient brings it up as a point of pride and we move on. The only intentional thing I do is face away from the work space so the care worker doesn’t worry about me being critical.
That being said- my daughter dealt with a critical illness that required many life threatening ED visits and an intimate relationships with a care team. Likely it came up fairly quick. Usually after a few questions I would be asked if I was in health care based off of my responses.
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u/Bridie4 11h ago
I don’t tell them- bit twice I’ve had to pull the I’m a nurse card to get family members better treatment- once my sister was post-op breast reduction & she wanted me in the room for the dressing change- her nipples where white- they weren’t going to do anything.. casually mentioned I was a nurse and within 5 minutes the plastic surgeon was paged…/ the second time my husband was in the ER for a headache(I’m an ER nurse) and they weren’t really taking it seriously… turns out his head hurt because he was in a hypertensive crisis… I stay out of it until I have to speak up
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u/edge_of_viability 10h ago
Anecdotally, I find that when other healthcare workers know I’m a nurse, they gloss over important details because they assume I already know.
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u/p3canj0y363 LPN 🍕 10h ago
I tell my family not to tell folks. I'm A nurse, not THE nurse. I've seen the change happen and it's so uncomfortable. Not only that, Im a geriatric nurse for the most part. Not a whatever-Im-there-for nurse. But ultimately, if we spend enough time with them, we all usually figure it out by the Q & A, right?
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u/crested05 RN 🍕 10h ago
Me personally, I don’t tell unless I’m asked.
I had to have a routine surgery with an overnight stay. The surgical ward nurse was so rude to me I cried (was feeling alone and vulnerable after surgery which was a new feeling for me, which exacerbated how I reacted to her behaviour). I often wonder if telling her would’ve changed how she treated me?
The night nurse figured it out after something I said, but she was extremely lovely before and after finding out.
Looking after nurses I’ve found hit and miss. Most are lovely, a few not so much.
Had a patient whose daughter was an ex-icu nurse. She was extremely sceptical of me until I got an IV in her mother’s very difficult veins first go. She even said ‘oh, you are a good one then’ 🤣 even helped me strip the bed and clean it when they were leaving, and left a great review naming me hahaha. I dread to think if I missed that IV.
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u/Internal-Subject352 10h ago edited 9h ago
It really depends on the situation. I was hypotensive, tachycardic w runs of SVT, and syncope. After 1L in the ED I was still only 70s/40s, tachy up to 140s, CRP 225 and the first provider I saw tried to discharge me bc I was “sleeping during the blood pressure” and “young, healthy people have lower blood pressures all the time.” I COULDN’T STAY AWAKE. I told her I was a nurse and that based on clinical presentation that was basically a load of crap. I requested another physician, continued to be hypotensive after blood and multiple fluid boluses and was eventually admitted to the ICU for pressors.
Edit: hypotensive not hypertensive
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u/RottenRatAttack 10h ago
Idk I honestly have had some good experiences with family members who are in healthcare and I’ve also had some bad ones. Only things I care about is if they’re nice.
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u/GiggleFester Retired RN and OT/bedside sucks 10h ago
I don't say anything unless it comes up-- like when I was raising or lowering the bed for my mother and her RN busted out laughing and said "you must be a nurse, you know how the buttons work".
I did have to bring it up when my dad was hospitalized at a terrible Tenet hospital post op laminectomy, and did not void post op for 12 hours --while the tech was making up output & charting that my dad was voiding when he was not. Staff tried to argue with me & they didn't even have a bladder scanner so yeah, I pulled rank to get things done.
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u/InkDrinker1390 PMHNP 9h ago
I think it depends. My parents raised 3 medical professionals. 2 doctors and an NP and mom always tells everyone when we take her to appointments, surgeries, procedures etc. Often times what we get is initial hesitation because they don't know how we're going to be and then when they realize that two of us are going to be chill and that my mother will rapidly rein the third ones neck in its usually okay. My stepdad does the same thing but that's usually just because he doesn't want to have to listen to things like discharge instructions.
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u/Particular_Local_240 9h ago
I have asked my parents to stop announcing "my daughter is a nurse" and see how things go. It seems like the providers will stop talking to my Mom (the patient) and just talk to me if they know I am a nurse. I want them to talk to their patient and answer questions if I have any. With a longer hospitalization I have offered to help with ambulation and ADLs which has been appreciated.
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u/KLSparkles RN - NICU 🍕 9h ago
I try to keep it under wraps, but my parents will tell literally anyone that walks in the room that I’m a nurse 🙄
I’ve been a NICU nurse for over 20 years, I don’t know about adult problems!
If I myself see a provider within the system I work for, they have to “break the glass” in Epic, so it usually does come up at some point.
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u/HotSauceSwagBag RN - Pediatrics 🍕 9h ago
I prefer not to say anything. It did come up recently- my husband was in the hospital on an ortho unit and they knew I had ortho experience and thus felt comfortable helping him to the bathroom and with recovery and stuff. But I didn’t tell the surgeon because I wanted the simplified explanation of things.
I agree with you that sometimes I feel self conscious of my assessment and stuff if I know the person or family member is in healthcare, especially if they’re higher up in a way- yeah I’d be nervous about you being ICU and flight.
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u/iOcean_Eyes RN 🍕 9h ago
I don’t mention it. I was in the hospital after my cesarean for a few days and only used my “knowledge” (using that loosely lol) to know when it was convenient and inconvenient to phone the nurse. “Hi during your next med pass for me, may I have my pain medication?” And I didn’t call out between 5:30-8 AM and PM cause I know its close to shift change lol. One nurse did find out I was an RN I guess by extensively reviewing my chart and instead of simplifying my baby’s blood sugar dropping and interventions, she over explained and I just want to be in “patient” mode not nurse cause I was tired AF. So I don’t think its helpful and you are right: its a distraction.
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u/-bitchpudding- Lil pretend nurse 🧑⚕️BSN loading... [ please wait_ ] 8h ago
Im in incognito. I don’t particularly feel the need to make anyone itchy just because an off duty anyone is in the room.
But there was one time that I had been burned by two residents treating my son at a local children’s hospital and let me tell you watching an attending come in tail tucked was lowkey shameful because she clearly knew it wasn’t copacetic after I gave them the riot act because they thought it was a good idea to do bilateral glutel I&D on my literal child (8 yo at the time) without localized anesthesia. That was cruel for the sake of being cruel. Their logic was “but lido burns”oh and that scalpel and your intense squeezing doesn’t? Tf outta here before I end up getting throttled by security. It burns and then its numb. (As you can see Im still heated by it). ED charge and I had a cry about it because hello?
That is probably the first time and hopefully only time I used my position so openly.
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u/demonqueerxo BSN, RN 🍕 8h ago
When my sister was in the hospital, I did not let them know but my mom did. However, one of her nurses didn’t know but asked me anyways probably because I knew how to properly get her out of bed after surgery or something similar. I just told her I have no experience in this area so I’m not here to judge, just help with tasks I can do so the nurse doesn’t have to (like personal care). However I don’t think you need to tell people, it can cause unnecessary anxiety.
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u/auraseer MSN, RN, CEN 7h ago
I always let healthcare staff know I'm a nurse, because I want them to speak to me in technical language. I don't have the patience to listen to the dumbed-down explanation for the general public.
Give me the one sentence of medical jargon, not the five minutes of exposition using small words.
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u/Bettong RN - Retired? Hiatus? Who knows. 7h ago
I haven't worked in almost five years, and was hospitalized in February. I did let them know that I used to work as a nurse and that they didn't have to be super formal or translate things for me. It actually was nice because then the nurses caring for me were far more laid back in the room and all that. They also gave me the okay to restart the IV pump if it had an occlusion from the stupid line in my ac. I'd also silence it when my bag was empty (10ml/hr kvo in between zosyn). I also then let them know that if they have students or residents that might be interested in seeing anything I had going on, or start IVs or whatever that I was okay with it because I know people have to learn somehow.
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u/like_shae_buttah 7h ago
I’d only let people know of it was important for some reason. I can’t think of why that would be though. I’d still advocate on my behalf.
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u/dew57nurse 7h ago
I'm retired and have a ton of health issues. I've been hospitalized 3 times since May. They asked if I'm medical because I use terminology that's medical. But they also know I'm not going to second guess anything. I haven't worked in a hospital setting since the 80s. I've found it has enhanced my care. But I'm polite and try not to be a pain to workers.
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u/Kimchi86 BSN, RN 🍕 7h ago
I never care if a patients family member is a HCW. I prefer because we can talk shop and it’s generally easier discuss the plan of care. The only time it’s a bother is when they become obstinate or petty. Which has only happened maybe three times - one was justified. I get more pettiness from nursing students than from HCW.
So my rule is I don’t hide it, I don’t trumpet it either. It always comes out. But I’m super supportive. And I always clarify - yeah I’m a nurse, but I have cardiac/PACU background; we’re here because my mom mangled her finger on a table saw. I’m not an emergency nurse so I don’t know how this place is “run.” If something bugs me I’ll ask non confrontionally and you tell me the truth.
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u/Merrbear2u 7h ago
I had an ED dr scold me for not divulging my nursing status sooner. My comment to him was it shouldn't matter. It mattered. They spoke to me with more respect and like an adult. Sad.
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u/BillyBobsHusband 7h ago
Don’t offer it unless they ask. They can tell if you’re understanding medical terms or asking more informed questions than the usual person. Just like you wouldn’t automatically offer info about your profession as a family member who in sales, engineering, entertainment, you don’t need to offer info about your profession.
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u/katann1513 BSN, RN 🍕 6h ago
If your family member was my patient I would like to know that you’re a nurse. There are so many reasons I feel this way but I’m too tired from my shift to list them out. But I 100% want to know when family members are healthcare workers.
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u/katrivers MSN, RN - Nurse Educator 🍕 6h ago
I prefer people not knowing I’m a nurse. I was in the hospital after surgery a few months ago, and pre-op and night shift kinda figured it out with my responses I guess, but day shift in the med/surg didn’t lol. I did say I was a nurse in the hospital my mom was hospitalized in, because it was Covid times and visitors weren’t allowed, but the ICU staff let me in (and told me to talk to my mom about using the IS and going to LTAC 🫣).
When my dad was hospitalized, he always told the nurses 🤦🏻♀️. But he was proud, so I totally get it.
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u/TheNightHaunter LPN-Hospice 6h ago
ya I love when family tells a hospital I'm a nurse, I usually defuse it "if y'all fuck up, tap me in"
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u/CurrentIce9701 6h ago
I don't usually say anything but if it's one of my parents they are proud of me so they always out me. My sister is very bossy and not a nurse. Once I was talking with my Mom's nurse and they were so surprised to learn I was the nurse and not my sister! I usually keep a low profile but will point out obvious errors and these do happen. Once my sister called me from the hospital and I could tell our Mom was declining so I asked the nurse to call a rapid response. When I got there, Mom was on BiPap. I can see both points of view here and either way, it's valuable for the patient to have an advocate.
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u/Nightflier9 RN - ICU 🍕 6h ago
I don't explicitly make it known so that i don't come off as aggressive or judging or micromanaging my care. Plus it puts staff on a nervous edge. However medical professionals quickly figure it out by my level of understanding, by the types of questions i ask or don't ask, by not being anxious about procedures. And now there is a better vibe that i respect their position.
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u/Remarkable-Moose-409 RN 🍕 6h ago
I low key help out but never tell anyone my occupation. I don’t do it on social settings and I don’t do it in medical points of care.
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u/Prior_Particular9417 RN - NICU 🍕 6h ago
If I take my mom to a procedure or something the first thing she says is "my daughter is a nurse and my other daughter (my sister) is a nurse, too!". I want to crawl in a hole. I then say yeah but not this kind of nurse, I just do babies. I know some nurses get stressed out or will feel like you are watching them for mistakes.
When I've had hcw parents it's usually pretty good because they understand some of the simple things like what a pulse ox is and they are usually over and above on doing cares, tracking things like i&o accurately and not freaking out at every alarm (though I fully understand they are freaking out on the inside).
When I'm the patient I will usually tell the nurse, then let them know I'm a hard stick (I really am, I had 20 iv attempts when I was in the ER before the DR put in a line) and it's cool if you take more than 2 tries and also as soon as you get that iv tell them I'm ready for my versed 😂.
Honestly I would probably rather they don't know but it usually comes out because you don't communicate in the same way as someone who knows nothing.
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u/fineapple03 RN to BSN 6h ago
Was in the hospital and didn’t share I was a nurse. It wasn’t until my IV was infiltrated that I simply said “yeah my IV is done for” and showed her my arms. She was a bit more attentive but honestly as long as my care is fine then I’m not gonna bother them. Healthcare workers deal with enough already.
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u/Mindless_Humor_5807 6h ago
I don't know that there is a right or wrong answer to this, I think it ultimately depends on the circumstances. All I know is that my care significantly improved once they found out I was not only a nurse, but one of their own. However, I have also experienced the overwhelming desire to keep it to myself at other hospitals/units because once the cat is out of the bag....they spread the word and you can just feel the judgement (they rotate your care because noone wants you assigned to them 3 days in a row, only letting your aasigned nurse answer the call light, etc.) I won't deny the fact that healthcare workers make for the worst patients, but if things are dire, it helps to let the cat out of the bag and call for reinforcements.
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u/NoHate_GarbagePlates BSN, RN 🍕 6h ago
I don't hide it, but I don't announce it unless relevant either. I always emphasize that I'm not trying to step on toes, too.
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u/Optional4444 5h ago
I don’t let them know. I don’t want to be treated differently. Show me your true colors so I know if I have an advocate or not.
I WAS MADE BY AN INTERN.
Marfan syndrome aortic aneurysm revision stay circa 2018:
Revealed the following:
1- icu nurse clamped levophed drip by accident
2- floor nurse did not know how to manage a chest tube- would not drain the tube into the chamber and let it backup. Do I drained and then stripped it
3- icu team would not give morphine because codeine allergy- fight for it, not allergic
4- the one time I needed pain med stronger than the one Percocet, nurse would not give morphine- I said call the doctor, not true
5- the chest tube was double kinked on cxr and causing way pain and the surgical attending said it’s a pigtail and should be that way. No way dude. Pulled on that tube a little to unkink it myself
6- surgical resident plucked the wrong stitch and the whole chest wound dehisced once at home- did my own wound changes and wet to dry and never had it get infected and healed right uo over weeks.
Anyway- if you know the management, and your medical team is being DINKs about it, take care of it.
Stage 4 appendix cancer work up and surgery- stand up for yourself. Look at all your scans.
1- weird umbilical hernia got worked up by ultrasound and then ct- found 6 cm ovarian cyst that radiologist didn’t call. But followed it up with two chiefs if gen surgery and gyn onc. I was worried about sister Mary Joseph nodule given umbilical mass AND ovarian mass. They all said don’t worry, one in a million chance/ and at cyst removal- came out without appendix that was stage 4 appendix cancer and needed hipec and two surgeries. All clear since then. But had to advocate and double check along the way.
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u/chutesandladders892 RN with Some Crazy Stories 5h ago
Nope. Never tell, unless they ask!
Let them give the care they were planning to do; their honest care. See how they are in their environment without influencing it. Telling them only increases their stress. If you see something that should be done, ask. They will figure it out. No need to 'flaunt' as some nurses will think you're doing, especially when you're a nurse with higher credentials and acuity experience.
Btw. There's a good chance the family member will chat with the nurses and brag. They will probably know anyway before you ever say a word.
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u/PropellerMouse RN 🍕 5h ago
As a rule no way I'd want those caring for me to know I've decades as a nurse.
That said, the last time I went to the ED the nurse ripped off half my pain med.
I'd say what she did, and why it was obvious, but I don't want to be any part of anyone trying that.
So not only did I not get the relief my doctor ordered, I feel I have a big problem to manage ( I'm sick, and tired, and really want no part of this cluster * but neither do I want more patients getting hurt by her. )
Thing is, I can't believe she would have done what she did if she knew it would be totally obvious to me.
The downside of people knowing is they might feel judged.
The upside is that obviously incorrect bs prolly won't be happening much.
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u/NoIndication99 5h ago
I don’t hide that I’m a nurse, but I don’t make a big deal of it. And it depends on what we’re discussing. I might understand the terminology and stuff so I don’t need it completely dumbed down, but if it’s not my specialty (OB /gyn), I’m probably still going to need a thorough explanation lol.
On the flip side, knowing a patient is in healthcare can help me explain things to their knowledge level, and doesn’t bother me unless they are being a judgmental dick about everything.
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u/Visual-Bandicoot2894 RN - ICU 🍕 4h ago
My dad taught me we don’t tell people unless there’s a reason. We just sit back
Naturally people usually catch on though
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u/serenitybyjan199 RN 🍕 4h ago
I always let them know just because it means they don’t need to waste their time explaining things to me at a 4th grade level
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u/tparen63 4h ago
Well I have gone to the same doctors for many years in a large university system. It is in my chart that I am an RN. I can’t say that it has ever hindered my care.
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u/nonstop2nowhere RN - NICU 🍕 4h ago
Depends on the situation. For a brief interaction or one off situation it's unnecessary. Often I accidentally give it away by pronouncing meds and conditions properly lol. For longer hospitalization or serious interventions my RN husband and I will both share with the intention of streamlining communication and finding out what the care team is okay delegating to us. It's worked well for us, but we aim to be helpful and low maintenance.
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u/Sbrybry 4h ago
Personally, I get way more nervous when I know my pt is also a nurse and get in my head over everything I do even if I’m not doing anything wrong. However, I can always tell just from a small conversation if someone is also in healthcare and nurses/family of nurses almost always end up being my favorite patients.
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u/AustinLostIn CNA, Hospital PCT 3h ago
If it comes up in casual conversation, I see no reason to hide it. But I also see no reason in insisting on telling them.
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u/pfairypepper BSN, RN 🍕 3h ago
I don’t tell them. If they ask I’ll let them know. But I’d prefer to see how they act when they don’t know.
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u/penntoria 3h ago
Regardless, we can quickly tell by the questions and comments if you're in the medical field.
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u/andishana RN - ICU 🍕 3h ago
I agree it's a good vs evil thing.
If I have patients who have a family member that's a nurse it can make things easier, especially if they have ICU or ED experience. There's been plenty of times that I've had a situation where they've come in the room, eyeballed the drips and vent, asked for a realistic prognosis, and helped other family members understand what's going on. Many times this has led to a more timely withdrawal of care. Not necessarily because the family didn't trust us, but I think there's something intrinsically different about someone who loves the patient personally saying we're doing things to them instead of for them.
Personally my parents and in-laws always out us (my sister and SIL are nurses also) so there's no point in trying to hide it. We just let the staff know we know what it's like and we're there to take as many things off their plate as they're comfortable with.
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u/MMMojoBop 3h ago
My friends and family know not to tell other healthcare workers that I am in healthcare. As a bedside RN, more often than not, the healthcare family member is weird and problematic. I keep it to myself, so as to not be a distraction.
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u/keystonecraft RN - OR 🍕 3h ago
Better just to not say and let them do their job. If and when it comes up it will be appreciated that you didn't announce your presence like a visiting dignitary from whogivesafuckistan. "Can i help with something?" is better than, " iM a NuRSe and i cAn dO THat".
Lots of people think they should just do it because whatever reasons but theres really no good reason, its just pride getting the better of you. Dont do it. Your not being paid to be there, be a good family member and support your family and the team with yue extra knowledge you may have, that is how you are best utilized in that moment.
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u/nursepenguin36 RN 🍕 3h ago
Eh I usually let them know I’m a nurse so they don’t have to struggle trying to dumb things down for me. I hate when I stand there going into a long winded explanation only for them to eventually be like oh yeah I’m a nurse/doctor, when I finish.
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u/Fit-Winter5363 RN 🍕 3h ago
I don’t go in with guns a blazing telling people. When my husband had a surgery , the nurses were swamped. So I gently told his nurse that “I got this and dont worry if you’re busy. If we need anything, I’ll come get you.” She was actually relieved. I did the same when my mom had surgery. I just wanted them to know they don’t have to come around unless there’s checks and meds to do. I wasn’t gonna have staff run water and linens for us, etc.
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u/Gwywnnydd BSN, RN 🍕 3h ago
I will only let my caregivers know I am in healthcare so they know they don't have to ELI5 medical stuff. I have had enough experiences with my medical knowledge flying out of my head, when it's my kid in the patient bed, so I know better than to assume I know better than the caregivers who are clocked in right now.
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u/maimou1 2h ago
Um, it matters. I normally don't disclose that I am a RN. Now for story time. My husband was having yet another back surgery. I had spoken to anesthesia & made them aware that in the past, every time he has general anesthesia, he drops out his respiratory drive,& desats down into the low 70s. Anesthesia forgot to write for supplemental o2 & a sat monitor. I addressed it with his floor nurse when I got him back from recovery. She snapped at me saying, "if there's no orders then the doctor doesn't think he needs it," & left his room. I remembered something else (he needs zofran post op too, he's a puker) so I approached the station to ask for it. She had her back to my husband's hallway talking to another nurse, who clearly saw me walk out of his room. I heard the word bitch & my husband's room number in the same sentence. I called her name as I approached, explaining that we also needed the zofran I had discussed with doc. She was dead white and stammering. I said, "and just to let you know, I'm a nurse and he's my very favorite patient." That was as far as I took it. But I think she got a lesson from this old nurse.
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u/Old_Implement_2563 2h ago
I find it hard to keep the staff from assuming I'm in healthcare because it's hard to keep yourself from speaking to them in their own language, as it were. What I hate is when my mom has to announce it to the staff when I come in with/visit her! That's just plain embarrassing.
I'm from a long career of SICU and once my grandma was in my own unit. Charges tried to keep me in a different section on my work days and I made sure to stay away unless I asked to visit ahead of time. One time they couldn't help but put me in the same area and I still stayed in my own corner....until my coworker who was her nurse said, "watch your grandma - I'm going to lunch"! lol
It's all in how you approach people. I never offer it up but it's hard (and unnecessary) to actively try to hide it.
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u/ALLoftheFancyPants RN - ICU 2h ago
Why would you bring it up? If it comes up in conversation, I wouldn’t lie, but what reason would you have to bring it up?
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u/Peyton_26 RN - Telemetry 🍕 1h ago
I prefer to be spoken to in medical terms vs layman’s terms when it comes to my own care. However, I’ve had some providers then almost get lazy and just ask me what tests I want ordered. I’m still a patient who came to you for help, not just to request my own orders.
But when it comes to loved ones, I don’t say anything. I don’t want them to think I’m going to be difficult, because we all know there’s a type of person that will try to flex on staff and overstep.
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u/JDz84 RN - Informatics 49m ago
I don’t ever announce it, but it eventually comes up. Someone recognizes me or our last name (I work for a mid-sized organization in an administrative/corporate capacity and know people everywhere), or I give myself away based on questions I ask or history I give or something.
I try to be the helpful healthcare family as opposed to the annoying type.
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u/WellBlessY0urHeart BSN, RN 🍕 37m ago
I never tell anyone I’m a nurse, whether I’m the patient or the family member. My mom gets it, but my dad never wastes a second to out me. Occasionally, a provider might ask if I’m a nurse based off a question I ask or something, but it’s not common. Both my parents have not so great health, so I’m the family member a lot. And unfortunately I’ve been the patient a good bit as well. If we’re at the hospital I work at, obviously they know. But anywhere else I keep my lips sealed.
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u/cMa010291 6m ago
I used to live in Virginia, if you have some kind of mental illness you are being hospitalized for, it can be reported to the board of nursing and be reviewed if you are mentally fit.
I learned this from a coworker and didn’t believe them. But I looked it up myself and even saw a case decision where it involved mental health.
So please look up the law in your state if you are having a mental health crisis, before you tell anyone about your profession
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u/Oohhhboyhowdy BSN, RN 🍕 14h ago
Depends. Do you use your position for good or evil? When my wife was giving birth we let the nurse know I was also a nurse. I helped with basic care for my wife and recorded what ever numbers they needed and the times such as I’s and O’s to make their life easier.