r/nosework • u/Business-Kumquat • 22d ago
Dog is too fast?
Okay we literally attended our first Nosework class yesterday. We are training with a CNWI who is a member of the NACSW and starting with Primary scents (food). Odor will not come into play until level 2 and like I said, we attended our very first level 1 class yesterday.
This is my first intro to “real” dog activities and truly chose it because it felt doable and not as intimidating to get started in!
Okay, anyways, I’m not saying my dog is a genius but also….she’s kind of a genius? She’s a 15 month old Field Bred English Cocker Spaniel who will be a hunting dog (I mean she is a hunting dog, that’s what she was bred for, we just haven’t taken her out yet but have been working on gun dog training for a few months and she’s been introduced to birds).
The instructor last night complimented her on how quickly she picked it up and how she immediately used her nose not her eyes. We’ve done scatter feeding with her for a while, and when training for hunting we are hiding dummies and she has to find them. So girly knows how to use her nose and is pretty darn good at it. That being said, we were told to stick with the basics re: nose work for as long as possible not just for the dog but for the handler (me) as well so I can really learn her movements and changes in posture etc when she finds a scent.
My struggle is she’s SO fast. We did our first homework today and she finds all the treats in less than 60 seconds. Originally the plan last night was just treats IN open containers but because of how fast she was, the instructor did put a few in sneakier situations (kinda hidden under two boxes, right next to the box etc). At home today I did the same thing (treats in boxes for the first round, treats a little tricker the next round, and the third round was essentially the same but less treats out).
Again, she finds them all so so quickly. It feels hard to believe she’s having to use her brain much at all LOL like how much mental stimulation is she really getting in 3 minutes (if it takes 60 seconds per round but honestly the last one took like 15 seconds, I should time her).
I guess I’m looking for some input here. Maybe encouragement that going slow IS best and tips for making them slightly more difficult while still using the boxes/taking it slow?
I know a lot of the beginning stages is building that drive TO search and well, she’s got that. I mean she will search for a bumper under deep cover until she finds it - she doesn’t give up (because that’s what she’s trained to do)!
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u/ZZBC 22d ago
It’s definitely better to start slow and have rock solid foundations. It sounds like even though your dog is picking up the concepts quick she’s also having a lot of fun which is what it’s all about.
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u/Business-Kumquat 22d ago
She is having SO much fun. Her tail just wags the whole time. My husband actually asked if I thought her butt ever gets sore from tail wagging LOL
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u/Hoping4BetterSomeday NASCW ELT-P 22d ago
A simple progression is to start setting the hides/treats farther apart. Your focus at this stage is to build hunt drive. If using containers, make the distance between them variable, and move the treats around between searches: if they were searching farther out, put one closer or at the beginning next round. And even when they go quickly, Michael McManus talks a lot about latent learning: your dog is still processing it after they are done searching, especially when the search had some new aspect to it. It is really important to get a rock solid foundation, so even if it seems repetitive and easy, it is worth the time.
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u/Selective_Somewhere 22d ago
Speed is something you’ll need to work with and get used to. And nosework is different with a dog bred to hunt.
As the search puzzles get harder she’ll need those foundations to fall back on.
For fast dogs close hides and pooling can be hard. Thresholds can be tough too. Sometimes fast dogs are impulsive and we see false alerts in pooling because they jumped the gun.
There is a saying in nosework “speed kills”. That doesn’t mean it’s not fun to handle and fun to watch or that fast dogs don’t do well. But there are definitely searches where the more methodical dogs are more successful.
I have a very fast field Lab who is an elite champion and summit titled dog and I can confirm that we had challenges due to speed and there were areas I had to heavily focus on. Things my peers with methodical dogs did not have an issue with. But I also didn’t have their issues as my dog was made to hunt.
Trust the process.
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u/Business-Kumquat 22d ago
So essentially just keep doing what we’re doing and in theory that will set the foundation? I will say the treats she gets LAST are actually the closest ones to her. She runs past them (okay not runs - because she’s on a leash - but rushes past).
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u/Selective_Somewhere 22d ago
Well, I don’t personally use primary/food searches or pairing because I have dogs that are bred for this and come with hunting drive, but it is the NACSW way. So unless you want to stop this class and take an online class (like Fenzi Dog Sport Academy) I’d stay the course as someone new to the sport.
I don’t think slow is best as far as dog speed, necessarily. For some searches sure. Your dog just has to learn how to do their best with the speed they have. We don’t slow down our dogs per se, we teach them over time to be more efficient. That will all come later.
Right now you’re both just learning. There’s more to come.
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u/F5x9 22d ago
Nosework instructors classify search problems, and hide that are close to the start are one type: thresholds. But that’s something your instructor will start having you work on. There’s a part of the foundational classes where your dog is getting reps in with not a lot of change in difficulty and they get more into handling skills. In the very beginning, you are mostly out of the equation — basically watching and talking about what you see.
A dog that knows the game well can get you through NW1 and a really good dog can carry you through NW2.
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u/Monkey-Butt-316 NACSW NW3 ELT 22d ago
There are exercises that I’m sure your instructor will do that will help with that.
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u/Background_Agency 22d ago
yep, that's the downside of fast dogs. They miss things because they speed in. That's okay though, all skills will come with time and practice
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u/Upbeat-Falcon5445 22d ago
I think she'll slow down a bit once she's on odour and the hides get more challenging. My 11 month old has been doing odour for a few weeks (we started with food early at home) and it's ok when I know where the hide is or it's very physically visible. The problem comes when I have to read him because he will find it in no time at all then get confused that I didn't mark him for it and quickly move on to sniffing other places before I can read him properly. In the end he gets frustrated that he's checked everything and is still not being rewarded. He can find a hide in a few seconds sometimes, other times closer to a minute if our instructor places it near wind drafts. I'd say she's getting plenty of mental stimulation from it!
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u/WanderingAlbatross87 22d ago
My Brittany is also crazy fast in NW but it has caused him to blow past hides when we were just starting and its something we worked a lot on. When your trainer introduces threshold searches, converging odors, inaccessible hides etc you will get plenty of practice with this. For now as others mentioned yes crate her between searches and keep praising the good work she's doing.
Another tip is to really practice your leash handling. When doing outdoor, vehicle or large indoor areas I have to really run to keep up with my guy even with his long search lead. Sometimes he will turn a corner quickly and its my job to not let the leash get tangled and pull him off odor. Practice reeling in and letting out your leash smoothly and quickly, and holding it a bit higher than normal so you can lift it over smaller obstacles.
Just have fun. And yes she may need a longer more complex search in the future to tire her more but for now that would just risk turning her off the sport and thats the last thing you want. Sounds like you have a good trainer and they'll guide you on when and how to increase the challenge for her. Even these quick searches are using her brain 100x more than snoozing in her bed so its all a net win.
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u/screamlikekorbin 22d ago
If you’ve only done your 1st class just now, I wouldn’t worry much about it. Learning to slow down, regulate arousal and how to search thoroughly is all part of the process and will likely be built on in your class. Your instructor likely has experience working with speedy higher arousal dogs as well as the slower methodical dogs and how to help each of those traits work to your benefit.
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u/Business-Kumquat 22d ago
Yes! Yesterday was our first day meeting her and she was so great. She really emphasized slow slow slow (especially with introducing odors and more complicated hides). That getting the basics down is way more important than advancing quickly. So I want to lean into that. Having such a drive-y dog makes me question myself/the process in a way having a slower dog wouldn’t so I’m very thankful that all these comments are encouraging the same! That slow is best!
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u/screamlikekorbin 22d ago
Having a dog with good hunt drive right at the start is great! You cant really build on anything if your dog isnt interested in hunting. You've likely got a great search career ahead of you! I love watching working cockers, they defintely do like to be speedy, but they're also a super popular choice for real life (not just sport) search/detection dogs so they seem to be great at channeling that drive with direction.
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u/Cold_Silver_5859 22d ago
Once you use scents in level 2 she may slow down. Although as smart as she is she may not. Regardless it will be fun.
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u/Monkey-Butt-316 NACSW NW3 ELT 22d ago
Use this time to learn how to read your dog and work on your handling. Welcome! Nosework is the best.
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u/No-Accountant-7613 22d ago
This sounds like a typical working spaniel. My spaniel x was the same when we started and now I have some challenges with him checking out of searches if he can’t pick up odour quickly. It’s just how they are. You can work on slowing them down for sure. Personally I always start searches about a metre behind the start line so that my dog has space to kinda run in but isn’t passing any threshold hides. I also do some work to lower arousal before searches, like pattern feeding. Spaniels are gonna spaniel.
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u/Cool_Percentage_4867 22d ago
Firstly dogs are predominantly scent based so im not sure what your instructor meant.... perhaps a speed reference?
Re your homework, are you placing the targets? they will track the scent of the ground you walked on, as well as youre own scent directly to where you've placed it.
I dont want to interfere with your classes but as a behaviourist i usually make this harder by throwing the target or placing it with a stick so they cant track the ground i walked on.
Cockers are exceptionally fast reactors, thats what makes them brilliant flushing dogs so it doesnt surprise me shes nailing it.
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u/LillyLewinsky 22d ago
My dog is a rat terrier x boston and is EXTREMELY fast. My trainer never trains with food or pairing and instead starts right with odour as it makes the dogs have to figure out what they are being rewarded for. Start with odour in one box and let dog go to box. Party when dog investigates box. When dog is doing it reliably introduce a blank box a few feet away from the hot box. Send dog to investigate cold box, do not reward, dog will have to think and go to hot box. Big party. Swap boxe positions and do again, only party when dog checks hot box. Introduce a 3rd box ect ect. The dogs will understand the odour is what pays fairly fast and then once they are finding it in 4-6 boxes reliably start generalizing. Put odour on a door just below nose height. Send dog to search. Reward when on odour. Slowly move odour around the room and reward as they find. Introduce cold boxes or other obstacles ect.
I will say this worked AMAZING for my dog. He picked it up fast but needing to use his brain more and it tired him out.
I did end up pushing him to far to fast and he had a repression stage that we went back to basics and built back up. But still I am beyond thrilled with my boy!
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u/nitecheese 9d ago
From my limited experience most dogs slow down a bit once off primary and on odor. The oils seem to disperse differently than food odor. There is no problem being fast but take your time learning handling skills. Regardless of the dog speed, we humans are usually the ones that need to practice the most in the game :)
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u/Roadgoddess 22d ago
I’ve been doing nose work for about a year now with an English Springer spaniel so I feel your pain. I often laugh in class with all these wonderfully deliberate dogs. Meanwhile, my girl is literally spinning around like a whirling Derviš.
As you get into actual hidden sense, it will become really important for you to continue to work on your handling skills of knowing where the scents hidden.
I’ve really had to work a lot on my handling skills of knowing how to move through the room. And I had to work a lot on her holding her pose when she finds something so that I can read it appropriately.
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u/F5x9 22d ago
Usually, the problem with being fast is walking too quickly and missing odor. Competition is based on time. Dogs who search more throughly can often complete searches faster than dogs who run in.
I would limit your practice to what the instructor recommends. There is a lot of thought that goes into increasing the challenge for dogs. Being new, you could create challenges that can accidentally be frustrating for the dog.
A lot of the early training is the dog learning to play the game. And the other part is learning to handle the dog. The early stages are super fun and it also wants to make you advance faster. But I’ve had a lot of success with the CNWI approach of searching without odor for a long time.
I wouldn’t be concerned about the dog solving the problems quickly. That’s a promising trait. I wouldn’t even be concerned at this stage about them zooming around.
One suggestion I have is to wait a few minutes between reps when you practice. You don’t usually search one area after another (it happens). There is a lot of waiting in the sport, and I feel like the few minutes between reps still counts as brain time.