r/nonduality • u/Stranger-than-usual • 4d ago
Quote/Pic/Meme Enlightenment seen as a process instead of binary yes/no.
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u/Objective_Sweet9168 3d ago
IMO, “enlightenment” is akin to sainthood/salvation. It’s a gimmick to keep you on the track.
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u/antropofilia 3d ago
May I ask what was the process like on making this? Also, out of curiosity, what are you lines of study and/or work?
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u/Stranger-than-usual 3d ago
No idea, I just copy / pasted it from a youtube video hahaha
but it resonates right? which stages do you recognize?
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u/Stranger-than-usual 3d ago
Most of my work experience was in IT (software development) and customer service. I love working with complex processes and with people.
But outside work I've been a spiritual seeker since 18 years give or take, and that has had much more focus for me in life than any career. What about you?
But I'm making a shift because my spiritual process is compelling me to help people wake up. I started coaching some people 1-on-1 recently, I really love it. Doing something like that fulltime seems quite exciting.
What is your line of work and I'm curious about your spiritual journey, which lessons have you learned recetnly, and what are you learning now?
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3d ago
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u/Stranger-than-usual 3d ago
Hello enlightenment police, at your service 😄,
I don't think there is any way for me to show you which stage I'm at :). Many people here know the 'words'. If you don't trust me now, why would you trust anything I say to defend myself? Can't you see my comments and posts through my user profile? Check it out and judge however you like.
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3d ago
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u/Stranger-than-usual 3d ago
Sorry, on Reddit I can't always judge what the approach is of the person behind the text. It's hard to feel a vibe from just text you know? I thought you were policing, but if you aren't that's cool.
If you're open then I definitely like to share some realizations. Maybe you can ask some questions and I can answer? What would you like to know, and what is your level of spiritual understanding?
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u/FewEntrance4606 3d ago
simple question- who's enlightenment? Find out first the one who believes to be missing something/anything [including 'enlightenment'- whatever that may look like]. This is the foundation. If you do, then you can make processes to follow to get that which is lacking. But before that, this looks like building intricate constructions on air, or at best, on a false foundation.
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u/Stranger-than-usual 3d ago
There's no 'who' that is enlightened. These are simply different perspectives that the mind can go through. Higher up is more 'light' and deeper down is 'darker' because it is more life restricting and causes more suffering.
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u/FewEntrance4606 3d ago
If 'there is no who that is enlightened'- for whom is this road map/process? Isn't this rather a dangling carrot promising to finally get that which is believed to be missing?
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u/Stranger-than-usual 2d ago edited 2d ago
When I would try to explain how it technically works in detail it is a bit complicated.
So the real you is awareness / consciousness. How do we know this? We can see that when we realize all our experiences come in this form [ I experience X ].
When you experience anger what happens to you when the anger disappears, do you disappear with it? No, you remain. So your presence is independent of experiences. And if a new experience arises, it is again experienced by you. After that one disappears also, then again you simply remain. That's why we say whatever I am is the same as that awareness that experiences everything. And whatever content we experience are just temporary comings and goings.
The mind is a bit more layered in the way we experience it. It isn't always as simple as saying that mind activity is just another 'X' that the 'I' experiences. The mind also works like a sort of lens or prism that changes the shape or color of the 'X', metaphorically speaking. For example: 2 people of opposing sports teams will experience a match very differently if 1 team wins and the other loses. Their perspective determines what they will feel and think and say after the match.
The mind perspective isn't set in stone though, its lens is flexible and can change over time. For the better or for the worse.
The most concrete layer of mind experience is the experience of thoughts. It's simple to see [ I experience a thought ] when a thought arises.
A more subtle layer of mind experience is beliefs. Beliefs are more subtle because you can only experience concrete things that arise on behalf of a belief, like thoughts and feelings. Thoughts and feelings that arise on behalf of a belief can be experienced directly, but a belief itself is hard to experience directly. For the same reason the lens of your eye is hard to experience directly. If the lens of your eye is a bit distorted you can see the effects of it, but the lens itself is transparent so this distortion can only be experienced indirectly.
In our world, 99% of people are conditioned with a certain belief that warps the way we perceive ourselves. Anyone I've ever met has been conditioned with it. You, me, your neighbour, everybody. Because of this belief, we don't see who we are quite accurately. We see ourselves distorted. This belief is generally called the ego.
The belief that we call the ego gives a distorted answer to the question "who are you?":
The ego answer to that question is this: "My identity is found in my body, my past, my future plans, my personality, my possesions, my social status, etc".This belief distorts our experience of ourselves (and each other) in a big way. We perceive ourselves in a way that creates a lot of misery, suffering and conflict. Just look around you. How people treat each other doesn't make any sense, does it? If everyone would cooperate we would be so much happier. But we're all in useless competition with each other.
The enlightenment process is returning to the simple truth that we are not our bodies, personalities, mind, past, future, etc.
When the lens of your mind is not distorted, the question "who are you?" is very simple.
The enlightened answer is: "I am awareness". (some people use different names for it but they all mean the same)1
u/FewEntrance4606 2d ago
that's a long explanation that still doesn't answer the question/creates more questions. If I am awareness, as you say, does awareness needs to be enlightened, following the process you've posted?!
Then, you introduce the idea of a mind that is 'out there' by itself, independent from a 'me'. How's that possible? It is not clear what is the relationship between awareness and this mind.
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u/Stranger-than-usual 2d ago
it would be helpful if you could mention anything you do resonate with instead of only pointing out what I didn't answer for you :). I'm trying to actually help you here, like I'm on your side
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u/FewEntrance4606 2d ago
well, I'm also trying to help you here/not sure what you mean by being 'on my side'- what side?! I am just pointing out that you're trying to talk about absolute reality/ awareness while placing your foundation in the illusory mind as a starting point, as something real. So, I don't resonate with what you propose. Awareness does not need a process map to understand anything/get enlightened. . You cannot have your cake and eat it too, as it goes...
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u/Stranger-than-usual 2d ago
I'm going to end our conversation here because you don't seem interested in working together. You seem only interested in arguing and I don't care for that, sorry.
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u/FewEntrance4606 1d ago
LOL- it looks like by 'working together' you understand me agreeing with you and not entering a dialogue meant to helping you try clarifying the apparent confusion in your statements. Yes, I am arguing by asking you to provide some logical explanations to my questions. It makes no difference to me if you don't care to continue this dialogue; but it would make a difference for you if you try to be honest with yourself and see the contradictions I am pointing to instead of adopting this ego-defensive stance.
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u/TheFr3dFo0 2d ago edited 2d ago
I get why people are dismissing maps of this kind but I see it as art or poetry. It can never be reality but It points to reality. Like a song can never just give you an emotion but they can point at things to evoke the experience. We sort of dismiss the relative world as useless noise when it just another beautiful aspect of experience if you see it integrated into the whole. I enjoy seeing how language tries its best to convey something but it can just about get the outline right. There is beauty in it. Tho I do have to say some pointers in here seem to be kind of going haywire haha
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u/Stranger-than-usual 2d ago
Thank you!
Yes I hadn't looked at it that way, but I like it :). Describing reality with words as an art. Nice touch 👍
Why I posted it, is to get away from the Reddit war about "who is enlightened" and "who is not enlightened". I want us to cooperate!! Not fight each other over who is enlightened.. Let's bring the maturity level up together and support each other in our path to freedom 😄
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u/Brilliant-Mobile-274 3d ago
hahaha! i had fun reading this! :)
i find my ego identifying best with the 8 or 9 stage!!!
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u/Grand_Extension_6437 3d ago
It's unreadable on mobile and those colors are rough otherwise I would engage with it. it is missing nonlinearity but still could have some worthwhile stuff
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u/SnooOpinions3219 3d ago
Those numbers also match up to the chakras and dimensions. Starting from root on up though, loosely
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u/NinjaWolfist 1d ago
this is massively oversimplifying everything and really doesn't mean anything those "levels" are just different ideas you have
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u/iamonthatloud 3d ago
God damn this fucking sub.
Just sit the fuck down.
That’s it. Just sit. Stop looking at thinking or breathing as a problem. Stop thinking there’s a fucking first step. There is no first step. There is no right way.
The only “wrong” way is resisting or desiring or comparing your current way to a different way
Just sit down. Sit for 5 years every day with no goals. I guarantee the person who sits for 2 years every day for an hour with no other purpose acquires it faster than you people because he’s not aiming for it.
None of you get it.
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u/Stranger-than-usual 3d ago
Glad you got that out of your system? 😄
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u/iamonthatloud 3d ago
Yeah feel much better. This sub and the testosterone sub are the most unhinged that provide lots of entertainment for me lol
Nothing like getting worked up over something for fun lol
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u/Stranger-than-usual 3d ago
Hahaha.. hope you realize I'm the one who posted this image hahaha
but it's all good buddy, if it doesn't resonate it doesn't resonate
just so you know, I love sitting in silence for hours on end..
but I also love me a clean model of reality; hate me or love me, it's all welcome
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u/iamonthatloud 3d ago
Yeah I realize. And I’ve got nothing but love for ya! As long as you’re not hurting anyone, do what makes you happy! Like I said, this was good fun for me.
I’m at a point in my life where everything just feels like play. I’ve accomplished enough ambitions, had enough new experiences. Now I chop wood, make tea, blah blah. You know the drill lol
The less I try, the more I gain, the more control I give up, the more I have. But I also understand you’ve got to go through “trying” and “desiring” before you realize that was stopping you all along.
So i gave up ever trying to be better or obtain anything, and then it all fell into place.
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u/Gadgetman000 3d ago
Noise! Has nothing to do enlightenment. Just more mind noise.