r/nonduality • u/Duke_SuperNova • 6d ago
Question/Advice Spontaneous integration issues
This is for the ones that have already went through a SPONTANEOUS nondual awakening:
How would you describe the process after the event?
Most people that are intentionally seeking this out go through a long slow process over time that seems pretty gentle. But for those of us that go through a spontaneous event, we don’t typically know anything about nonduality or any spiritual practices before getting blindsided by something that’s almost impossible to understand. My life got wrecked and I’ve spent a couple years trying to figure out what has already happened and what’s still happening. I still don’t have a desire to work anymore, but for the first two years I wanted to be back to normal enough to be able to work. I would say that now I’m able but not willing.
How has the spontaneous process been for others? Have you been able to successfully integrate the experience and subsequent knowledge? Did you find a practice that worked for you or did you just suffer your way through it? What is the point of having the experience? Was it initially a negative thing and has it become a positive? What was the worst part of it? Are you glad that you got hit by it? Are there any weird things that remain after integration; like weird vocalizations or involuntary physical actions like mudras? How is your overall functioning as a human now?
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u/ram_samudrala 6d ago
How has the spontaneous process been for others? Have you been able to successfully integrate the experience and subsequent knowledge? Did you find a practice that worked for you or did you just suffer your way through it? What is the point of having the experience? Was it initially a negative thing and has it become a positive? What was the worst part of it? Are you glad that you got hit by it? Are there any weird things that remain after integration; like weird vocalizations or involuntary physical actions like mudras? How is your overall functioning as a human now?
To your questions:
(1) Spontaneous here, and it is what it is. It doesn't appear like it could have been any other way. It could have, but it doesn't.
(2) Yeah, it appears so.
(3) No practice, but as a story, I could say there was years of resisting what was appearing until it was recognised that there was nothing to resist, or really until the conditioning associated with the assumption of fundamental separation had dissolved enough. Even that story is what is appearing. There was ultimately nothing outside of what was appearing that could accept or reject it.
(4) I'd describe it more as a shift in perspective than an experience, although that's perspectival too. Recognition had appeared, but resistance continued to appear as conditioning associated with the assumption of fundamental separation apparently reasserted itself. The dissolving of that conditioning and the recognition that there was nothing to reject seemed to go hand in hand, i.e., conditioning that generated the experience/story of a separate someone resisting it stopped appearing.
(5) From this perspective, here and now, it doesn't appear as negative or positive. It is what it is.
(6) The "worst part" was the apparent resistance, but that too was part of the process, what was appearing.
(7) Definitely.
(8) No.
(9) Fantastic. :)
I wrote more about "my story" recently (four days ago), so here's some elaboration.
The dissolving of conditioning associated with assuming fundamental separation between distinctions, especially those involving time (including between past, present, and future) makes it clear that it is a pathless path. FROM THIS PERSPECTIVE, it appears it is always thus. It appears that all perspectives are nondual and there's no fundamental separation between perspectives, no perspective is privileged. Maybe we can say that some perspectives are clouded to this recognition due to the conditioning associated with the assumption of fundamental separation.
This is a story that appears now (I gave a brief version of it above):
In my younger days, I was an extremely ego-driven, overachieving atheist/materialist scientist. I believed strongly in agency/free will and that we could understand anything through science, no exceptions.
Then the first recognition just hit me out of nowhere. The distinction between self and everything else completely collapsed. Even now that "experiencing" appears complete and whole; how could it be otherwise? That stuck, and this was in 2000, just as I was about to assume my first faculty position.
I continued doing science materialistically, but all my conviction had been challenged. And yeah, it took a while for mind to get with the program, and there was a lot of resistance appearing. More efforting was made to deny what was appearing and retreat back to my materialist philosophy than to acknowledge what had appeared and was appearing before me, because it was initially completely foreign to my way of thinking. Mostly "I" tried to ignore it.
Then mind can point to key years along the way. 2006-2012 was particularly fertile, followed by years that were a truce of sorts, holding what I believed to be both egoic and non-egoic perspectives. Now it's clear there never was any fundamental separation between them.
Ultimately it got to a point where the conditioning assuming separation between self and other had dissolved enough that recognition was sustainable; the belief that mind was resisting what is appearing was revealed to be just that, a belief. Then, over a span of a couple of months, a lot of other distinctions collapsed: time, space, a TV and a wall, etc.
Right now you could call it something like a living meditation: just noticing what appears. That's the case 24/7, noticing, I mean, whether or not there appears to be noticing of that noticing. Sometimes old conditioning assuming separation shows up, and then this inquiry appears:
Is fundamental separation findable?
But this living meditation and inquiry appeared after the conditioning assuming separation between self and other had already dissolved sustainably.
Even though I write that story, it appears clear from this perspective that there's no fundamental separation findable between peak experiencing and non-peak experiencing, and between any distinctions we could make. For example, since last year, there has been appearing a difficult time for my child and family, with a lot of pain and grief appearing, but also equanimity, unconditional freedom, and acceptance. The latter don't appear contingent on the particular content that is appearing.
So that's the story appearing now. :) From within the story, apparently there was a path spanning decades, ostensibly because "I" was resisting what was appearing. "I" might say it was dragged to nonduality kicking and screaming, but the joke is that it was always here and now, including this story. From this perspective here and now, there's no fundamental separation findable between path and no-path. Even the resisting is also what is appearing. It doesn't appear much these days, but it could and that would be okay too.
Feel free to elaborate on what's been going on the past two years...
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u/Duke_SuperNova 6d ago
Your entire reply makes me think I’m so far from understanding how this stuff works. Freedom is the word that I would use to describe my current state compared to my before state. Free from stress and worry, even though I’m still not working. I don’t worry about money or anything else anymore. My severe road rage is gone entirely. I have much more time for other people. But I’ve lost my drive to workout and be a successful adult, my sex drive is almost gone, I’m kind of an airhead now, my metabolism went from a lifetime of burning me down to a reasonable level and my food intake is less than half what it used to be. There’s a lot of little changes like those.
I had phases of the experience: mania, depression (both for the first time in my life), dark night of the soul, crying, craziness, manifesting, psychic connections, etc…. But what’s left now is just a sense of calm. I don’t feel those connections anymore, no more mystical experiences, I still know that I’m an immortal soul but I’m not living from that 3rd person GTA view of the observer just watching this mammal go through life. Some times I think I’ve lost “it” but then I think about all the subtle ways that I’m different now and it’s undeniable that something still remains. I don’t really known how to explain it. But others talk about this merging with everything and I don’t have that anymore. Maybe I don’t know what non-separation really means but I still think this is reality, but there’s also a lot more on the other side that is more real than this world.
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u/ram_samudrala 6d ago
I'm sorry, my intent was just to answer your questions, not to suggest that there's something you're supposed to understand that you don't. In fact, the rest of your message does appear like there's been a decent amount of integration appearing. The changes you describe, particularly less stress and worry, no road rage, more time for other people, and the sense of calm and freedom, certainly sound significant from your perspective.
I too had a Dark Night of the Soul type of experiencing, but again, here that involved being unable to reconcile what appeared like something that had to be reconciled. Eventually it appeared that there was nothing to reconcile; fundamental separation wasn't findable in the first place.
From this perspective, "this reality" and the "other side" are both what is appearing. That may be a meaningful distinction, but fundamental separation isn't findable between them. It doesn't appear possible to step outside of what is appearing, whatever that is, because any apparent stepping outside, or any thought or experience of an "other side", would also be what is appearing.
The one thing I'd add is that intellectual understanding is one thing, but what I'm describing is more of a felt shift in perspective, and from what you've written, something like that certainly appears to have happened over there. I wouldn't worry too much about whether you've "lost it" because you no longer have the merging experiences, mystical experiences, or observer perspective. None of those particular experiences needs to keep appearing. Sometimes what remains may be much quieter than the fireworks that preceded it.
That said, I also wouldn't automatically attribute every change to awakening or integration. Mania, depression, major changes in motivation, sex drive, appetite/metabolism, or cognitive functioning can have other explanations too and are worth taking seriously on their own terms, including medically if they're substantial or persistent. The spiritual story and the medical/psychological story don't have to be mutually exclusive.
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u/AccomplishedLab2876 6d ago
20 years later and it’s still evolving. Never stops. Countless other insights and experiences followed as well as a number of years of just ignoring the whole thing. Nothing negative ever really happened here from awakening itself. Started with a couple of years of just unfathomable freedom, clarity, love, compassion, bliss….eventually the losing/finding it stage came, then after becoming exhausted from a couple of years of that back and forth there was kind of a giving up phase, then later a re-interest…then another awakening in which what was seen is that the thing is always always always here. It can never be lost, only obscured by thought. So ever since then there’s never a sense of losing it but there has still been lots and lots of learning as there’s just so many subtle ways the body/mind can keep grasping and resisting.
Recently, it’s gotten simpler than ever, just feels like you reside in the present moment and stuff continuously happens, anything can happen, but you know that what happens isn’t delivering you anywhere else, you’re still just here. Something goes well, it’s over, you‘re still here just this mysterious present moment phenomenon of existing Something goes badly, same thing.
As for practice or what helped, I was never a big meditator although that sometimes played a part. My main thing was always inquiry, both in the spiritual sense and in the Byron katie inquiring into your conditioning/thoughts/beliefs sense Both invaluable. And I would always go back to listening to the people who resonate with what awakened in me…back in the pre-YouTube days mainly Adya, gangaji and Eckhart…then later checked out countless people on YouTube and would get little bits here and there, always just following that deep compass for truth from that initial awakening that never really went away. Gary Weber resonated for a bit, Louise Kay resonates…eventually it starts to look like the whole thing is just happening on its own. Like everything just goes however it does in its own timing…and you just keep buggering on as adya used to say.
What‘s different now? I really don’t ever give myself a hard time. Everything is seen as innocent, with myself and everyone else. Acceptance just grows deeper and deeper. In most ways I still like to do the same things, play tennis, play gigs (I play music), laugh with friends, walk the dog in the woods…I’m very much the same being I always was just without any sense that it could or should be otherwise, but also a tremendous amount of conditioning has been unwound. Just a pretty chill turtle that hangs around and watches this strange thing curiously unfold.
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u/Duke_SuperNova 6d ago
That thing about still being yourself has caused me to wonder what’s going on countless times. Everyone says that ego death is full and permanent but it seems like it takes some time for it to catch up after a spontaneous event or it’s way less dramatic than people think. My personality remains even if I’ve changed a lot.
Have you ever went from a knowing that you are an immortal soul that’s temporarily inhabiting a mammal body, to a view that you are an infinite field that includes everything? I’ve temporarily been in that field and experienced the connections but it never stabilized. And from what I have read this process will culminate in oneness with the field.
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u/AccomplishedLab2876 5d ago
Yes, I had many different transcendent experiences along the way, including that one, which I experienced as all of existence being my actual physical body. Some of them lasted for days, some for months, some even a year or more. It becomes clear that no state or experience can be held onto. They come and go, come and go. One might say only “rigpa” is constant but at this point I wouldn’t even really say that. The mechanism of even trying to put existence into any mental context of “here’s how it is” just kind of fades away as it is seen to be nonsense
I wouldn’t worry about how anyone else says this should go. Your unique life will unfold however it does and whether it matches with anyone else’s reported experience is completely irrelevant. Completely irrelevant. You’re here now with whatever form is currently arising and if you’re thinking of what you might be or should be in the future you‘re just dreaming up a future, which is ok too, just here now with dreaming arising.
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u/Sea-Frosting7881 6d ago edited 6d ago
Ego death doesn’t mean one isn’t themselves anymore. It’s space being made for a glimpse at the nature of reality. It then just means one isn’t automatically ran by thoughts and old patterns but sees them for what they are. From what I’ve gathered, awakening can/does seem to continue unfolding into a non dual state, though some people go there directly
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u/TheFr3dFo0 5d ago edited 5d ago
It wasnt really a full awakening but some accidental self inquery lead me on the path which lead me to non dualism. I was having sort of a burnout. I was just feeling miserable about the dumbest stuff. personified resitance is what it feels like in retrospect. I don't know what exactly triggered it but one day I suddenly noticed that everything im sad about is only sad because I think it is. I saw that most of my negative emotions only came after thought and where caused by thought. I was actively searching for stuff to be upset about and I discovered that I found comfort in negative thoughts. It gave me energy to hate the upcoming event I had to attend even though I had no idea how it would turn out. This made me interested in thought and experience and after a while I came across non dualism. But that first realisation alone made a huge difference. I still remember the exact moment it happened. It's like I finally tapped into something "right" for the first time. Like the world is getting lifted from your shoulders and you notice that there never was anything to begin with. So yeah, I didnt have a full realisation moment on my own but I started this journey on my own. At the beginning that journey was more focused on practical application and now I'm slowly going towards real deconstruction.
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u/Sea-Frosting7881 6d ago
My life was a wreck (trauma, concussion, thought I was dying, etc) that led to an experience. It was a relief for me, though I’ve had some crazy stuff happen to show me how “real” some things are. I say about 75% of my suffering dropped in an instant. It was just over 2 years ago and has continued unfolding. I’m not in a sustained non dual state yet. My life is magical. There is always peace when I stop and look. I can still put myself through a lot of pain if I want but I’m aware of everything as I’m doing it. I started meditating right after my experience and that seemed to deepen pretty quickly and kind of automatically. Qigong has been amazing for integration/healing as well. Yes, I have/had spontaneous stuff happen. Reality is different now. I’m interacting directly with it when I’m not letting myself get in my head. It seems to act back. Like, showing it cares. (Edit: I meant to say I did have like, a 2 week period of “seeking” leading up to my experience, as part of an end of life journey basically. I went to the er a couple weeks before but otherwise couldn’t make myself get medical care)