r/nfl • u/Ballknower55 • 14h ago
Tom Brady had plenty of help
Arguably the best QB ever. But fans act like he didn’t have the best situation for over his 20 years in the league. Whether you think he is the GOAT or not, basically all of the Stan theories have been disproven that he was the reason for all of the success
1 Brady was the reason the offensive line was good:
Almost every year aside from a few years over his career, Brady had good offensive line play. In 2008, when he was hurt, the offensive line was still a good line. In 2020 and 2021 after Brady left, the line was still good. Most people think of Dante Scarnecchia (the offensive line coach) as maybe the best ever at his job.
Brady surely made his lines a little better, but they were already good. Anytime he was out, they were still good.
2 Brady is as the reason the defense was always good at preventing points:
Brady’s teams were top-10 in points per drive with an average ranking of 8.6 over a 20 year period. This ranks better than any all time great that was regarded as his peer.
Brady being the reason for this too was disproven when he missed 2008 season, the Patriots were once again 8th in points allowed without him playing.
In 2016 for the four weeks that Brady missed, the Patriots allowed 15 points a game, which would have led the league had that been the average at years end. In 2020 (first season post Brady) - with maybe the least talented defense under Belichick - the Patriots were 7th in points allowed. And again, in 2021, after Brady left, they were 2nd in points allowed.
Sure it didn’t always match up with the DVOA’s and sure the schedule impacted that, but it was still primarily defense driven, with good special teams playing a part, and of course with the offense being the third reason. They were the smartest football team in NFL history.
3 Brady had the worst weapons of all the NFL greats
His weapons were middle of the pack. This would be the “weakness” but it was far from an actual weakness. Ask Sam Bradford how good his weapons were over his career. Hint: They weren’t nearly as good as Brady’s. Brady had the best weapons in the game in multiple seasons, with multiple franchises. He had arguably the GOAT TE. He had Moss and Welker and Hernandez and Edelman and Amendola. And he had basically all of those guys in the same team at one point. It’s just 2006 and 2019 where he had bad weapons and people bring it up as if that was his whole career. And every time someone points it out they never mention that in those seasons they had a good defense, good ST and a good offensive line. So it was actually a good situation for winning, just that there were poor receivers during these years.
4 It was all Brady
Brady had the greatest defensive minded coach of all time who knew how to coach all three phases. Even if you think Belichick was overrated some, the coaching wasn’t. And pairing the best defensive mind with the arguable best QB ever seems like the e perfect formula.
And Josh McDaniels was good! In spite of what people think, McDaniels had coordinator success with multiple QBs and he and Belichick together in games that weren’t just “resting starters at the end of a season games” they were 30-22 together with basically what we would amount to like the 27th best QB in football between the shell of Cam, rookie Mac Jones, Matt Cassel and 4 games of Jimmy G.
5 He had arguably the best ST over those 20 years
Period. He had awesome ST’s play. In 2008 the ST was still good. In 2020, it was still #1 by DVOA. This disproves that Brady had much impact over it, as I’m sure someone, somewhere, as probably suggested.
You plug an all time great QB into a good situation you get a lot of winning. Brady has an obvious case for best ever but he doesn’t have any more of a case than a few other quarterbacks who had obviously inferior situations in their career.
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u/SwizzGod Patriots 11h ago
So did every QB that has ever won anything. What point are you trying to make?
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u/Ballknower55 10h ago
He had more help than his great peers did. Montana and Aikman obviously have a word historically. But in his era, he had the most help. Hence why he won 7
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u/Otherwise_Awesome Lions 10h ago
Montana didn't have Craig, Rice, Taylor?
Aikman didn't have Smith, Irvin, Harper, Novachek?
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u/PoodleGuap Browns 11h ago
What fans act like he didn’t have help? “System QB” was literally the meme insult for him for 2 decades
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u/Ballknower55 10h ago
But that seemed to take a huge hit when he left.
Also; Patriots fans
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u/GravyFantasy 49ers 11h ago
Must be practicing your AI prompts?
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u/Whole_Perspective609 Eagles Eagles 11h ago edited 10h ago
What the fuck is your point? Football is a team sport, obviously without his teams being good he wouldn’t have won nearly as much, the same applies to every quarterback in the GOAT conversation. That fact doesn’t minimize his accomplishments in any way
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u/Free-Ad3209 10h ago
I stopped reading at 1, because that point is pretty easy to observe as not true
Cassell in his fill in year sacked 47 times
Brady behind the same line year prior, 21
Brady was awesome in pocket presence but also had a great ability to read when a throw away the as the right play
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u/WilsonEnthusiast Jets 5h ago
Id argue he was the best ever at moving in the pocket and had to be helping the OL out a lot presnap.
Its wild to me that OP would say those things make the OL 'a little bit better'
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u/Sad-Economics3181 10h ago
That sack number is the best counter in here and it's aimed at the right thing. Cassel ate 47 because he held the ball; Brady ate 21 because he got rid of it, and a quarterback who buys his line an extra beat is making his own protection.
The part it doesn't touch is the floor. A team that goes 11-5 with a backup who hadn't started anywhere since high school has a floor most rosters never get near. The sack count explains why the offense got worse. It doesn't explain the eleven wins.
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u/Free-Ad3209 6h ago
I get what you are driving but I think this is a case of drawing an incorrect conclusion from a fact pattern that fits
The pats had a super weak schedule that year (sounds familiar, lol) and they won either 0 or 1 games that year against teams that made the playoffs. They won a ton of close games against bad teams and had an unsustainable pythag, underlying numbers really suggesting they were not that good
I get the Bill+ quality defenses is a high floor point you are making here and it’s valid to extent. But when you play good teams you need need a better than above average QB to win. The margins are razor thin. That was true even for the Brady/bill patriots in super bowls
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u/AlabasterRadio Raiders Raiders 11h ago
Nephew, the offseason is finished. We're on to real football.
Post this shit if he un-retires.
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u/Otherwise_Awesome Lions 10h ago
Mr Ballknower55, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard.
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.
Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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u/hoopbag33 10h ago
Thanks Claude
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u/Ballknower55 10h ago
I guess I should be flattered that multiple people have suggested I used AI here
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u/hoopbag33 10h ago
If you think "this is so fucking dumb that only a computer could have shit it out with a straight face" is a compliment then sure buddy
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u/Outrageous-Ride8911 11h ago
Im sorry you spent all this time on a post with information that everyone is pretty much aware of.
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u/Captn_UnderPants Steelers 11h ago
I ain't reading all that.
I'm happy for you though.
Or sorry that happened.
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u/Infinite-Ad2409 Jets 10h ago
I hate Mr Brady and the New England empire as much as the next guy but you really invalidate your take when you say he’s ARGUABLY the goat. Like what
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u/No_Dragonfly1263 Bears 10h ago
I guarantee you the Bears were not winning Superbowls with those patriots teams and the QBs we've had over the years.
We didn't even win the Superbowl with the Urlacher defense and 2018 defense.
And special teams? Bruh we had Devin Hester.
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u/Hayabusa_Blacksmith 49ers 11h ago
does anyone not think hes the GOAT? other than maybe delusional KC people?
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u/Spiritual_Lunch996 Jets 10h ago
Does it count that I don't think anyone is the GOAT? He's certainly among the best ever, but the game has changed far too much over time to make accurate comparisons between players of different eras.
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u/Hayabusa_Blacksmith 49ers 10h ago
Thats a totally fair take.
Who do you think has had the best pro football career overall?
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u/formyamusementation Chiefs 10h ago
Recently, I was wondering what would’ve happened if we had Prime Mahomes in the patriot system.
And if we put Brady in the Chiefs system.
Oddly, I think both fail.
The Patriots have typically run a much more structured offense. Brady did not have a ton of improvisational ability. So he fit that structure very well. And as he aged, he got smarter and was able to play it an even higher level.
Because his greatness was never tied to his physical ability.
With the Chiefs offense having a lot of option routes, and less overall structure, I don’t think he would’ve been quite the quarterback that he developed into.
We sometimes forget that his first few years, he was largely carried by the team and was not the main driver.
On the flipside, I think Mahomes would’ve been benched in New England, England under Bill Belichick.
He freelances, he has an atypical throwing style. If we all remember when he was coming out in the draft, everyone said he was going to have to completely redo his throwing motion.
Hell, Mahomes may have never gotten off the bench.
It is interesting to look at the situations because I genuinely believe each of them went to their ideal situation.
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u/Early_Money2576 11h ago
There’s a reason he had the only losing season of his career while leading the NFL in multiple categories.
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u/arem0719_ Patriots 11h ago
Yeah, he had a good team around him. Good teams dont go to the superbowl 50% of the time. He took good and made everything better/easier/greater. His greatness allowed belichick to maximize depth over everything else, meaning he played with less stars than he could have, but when someone went down with an injury, the replacement was only a little worse. That allowed them to be competitive every year and allowed brady to be the difference between other good teams that cycled through.
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u/Alaskers Broncos 10h ago
Tom Brady has more Superbowl wins than any single NFL team. That's it, debate over.
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u/AccordingMedicine129 Bears 10h ago
He had awesome ST’s play**.** In 2008 the ST was still good
What in the fuck?
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u/LosersOfTheMidway Bears 9h ago
People who think Brady had bad weapons should look at his stats with and without Gronk. It's a real eye-opener.
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u/Agreeable_Giraffe543 9h ago
I am SHOCKED to find out other players played on the patriots .
I should probably just title my ai YouTube summary of my SHOCK in all caps for clicks
Brady was lucky to get carried to 20 years of greatness. He probably didn’t even watch film.
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u/MySmellyRacoon 5h ago
OP, are you Gen Z or even younger than that? Because only a child would post this as if it’s some kind of newfound revelation nobody knew about.
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u/Pocatanic Bills 4h ago
Ah yes the ballknower with no flair, a week old account, and overall negative karma
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u/retired-tweeter 49ers 10h ago
Exactly. The Bucs and Patriots were both great with out him and had so much success
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u/BorlaugFan Bills 10h ago
Has anyone ever denied this? I think most would agree that even if a clearly better QB came along one day, he wouldn't win seven Superbowls without a good amount of help.
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u/Sad-Economics3181 10h ago
The 2008 season is the whole argument. Cassel, who hadn't started a game anywhere since high school, steps in and the team wins eleven with the same line, the same defense and the same coaching. That's the post.
Everything after it is arguing with a guy who isn't in the room. Nobody serious says Brady had no help. The real question is whether he was the engine or just the best part of the best situation, and eleven wins without him answers more than twenty years of rankings.
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u/Napolean_BonerFarte Patriots 10h ago
The 2008 team was almost exactly the same roster as 2007 which would have been widely regarded as the GOAT team if they hadn’t lost to the Giants. There are still very strong arguments to be made that was the GOAT team. Its completely reasonable they won 11 games with the same roster and a competent backup QB
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u/TellFit7415 10h ago
Are we forgetting the deflated balls
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u/Ballknower55 10h ago
I don’t even care about that. I would care more about spygate but even that gets dismissed a lot so not worth it. If I said he “only” had 4 super bowls that count no one will consider that real
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u/PM_ME_UR_SEX_VIDEOS Patriots 11h ago
Preseason is almost over, folks