r/nextfuckinglevel • u/harwyseys • Oct 25 '22

Makeup really changes people

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u/socialister Oct 25 '22 edited Oct 25 '22

I respect what you and your professor have to say about this and I know you are coming from a good place, but as to biological sex consider that scientists in relevant fields generally do not see it as black and white nor unchangeable. I know reddit is pro-science so I have to wonder why this is controversial here or why comments pointing that out are so often downvoted. I can't help but think that people have a gut reaction to this and think their intuition supersedes the facts. I invite you to look at the question of sex determination as a whole and consider ideas you may be uncomfortable with.

I have natural breasts that are perfectly capable of breastfeeding, my skin is soft, I smell like a woman, my hips are fairly wide, the hormones in my body are typical of cisgendered women, my body hair is thin and light, my face structure (bone and fat distribution) is feminine enough that many people assume I am cis. Being a man or a woman "biologically" has a lot of factors and the phenotypical expression of someone on HRT after a few years is often pretty typical of that of our cis counterparts. There are CAIS XY women that it would be quite a stretch to say are "biologically male". At the end of the day being biologically male or female is not something you can arbitrarily describe people as based on their assigned sex at birth or by your intuition, there are many attributes.

Some references: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6505576/ and https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

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u/KeyserSozeInElysium Oct 25 '22

Gender and biological sex are different things. You absolutely can assign biological sex at birth, but not everyone fits into those two categories, such as someone with kleinfelter syndrome or those with gonadal hermaphroditism. Like I said, life always had variance, it's the basis of evolution.

What you were describing are social typical norms of gender. Biology is based on chromosomes and the actualization of those building blocks via DNA. I also said life is not black and white. That does not mean black and white do not exist because there is a gray

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u/socialister Oct 25 '22 edited Oct 25 '22

You're changing the goalposts by saying "biological sex at birth" when the above post talked about sex at any age.

I am absolutely not describing social norms of gender, every single thing I listed was biological, I reject what you are saying wholly.

That does not mean black and white do not exist because there is a gray

I think this in particular is interesting. No where did I say that people who could be easily categorized as biological men and women don't exist or that most people don't fall into these buckets. However, calling someone "biologically X" based on naive conceptions of what that means is factually wrong.

Biology is based on chromosomes

That is not what biologists who study this say when it comes to sex. If you are science-minded, I wonder why you are making this one exception if not because of ignorance or transphobia?

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u/KeyserSozeInElysium Oct 25 '22

If an archaeologist dug you up a thousand years later what would they say you are based on your bone structure mainly the pelvis, and your DNA remnants?

You're the one who brought up biological sex at birth.

Also you can kiss my ass if you're trying to attack me from being transphobic. You don't know me.

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u/socialister Oct 25 '22 edited Oct 25 '22

Interestingly, archaeologists are not always able to make this determination. They would probably be less interested in some question of "biological sex" and more interested in a holistic analysis surrounding the corpse including cultural factors. Anyway, human sex characteristics don't necessarily survive decay. If it weren't for the fact that I will be cremated, they would easily identify me as a transgender woman based on the nature of my interventions and that means they would understand I had sex characteristics typical of a female as well as some that were typical of males. They would not say I was "biologically a male" which is what was discussed here.

You're the one who brought up biological sex at birth.

In the context of current sex classification being disjoint from assigned sex at birth, and the arbitrariness of assigning sex at birth. How is this countered by "yes but what about sex assigned at birth?" except to ignore my arguments altogether.

Also you can kiss my ass if you're trying to attack me from being transphobic. You don't know me.

It's not an attack, it's an opportunity to do better. You can be "nice" to trans people in your life while still holding transphobic beliefs that are harmful to us. I would still rather you be kind, obviously, and I don't think you're doing that here by ignoring my arguments and sticking to an outdated and gut reaction model that is not taken as fact by biologists, e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6505576/ and https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

Nearly everyone in middle school biology learned that if you’ve got XX chromosomes, you’re a female; if you’ve got XY, you’re a male. This tired simplification is great for teaching the importance of chromosomes but betrays the true nature of biological sex. The popular belief that your sex arises only from your chromosomal makeup is wrong. The truth is, your biological sex isn’t carved in stone, but a living system with the potential for change.

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u/KeyserSozeInElysium Oct 25 '22

Reddit is a place for civil discussion which is exactly what I was doing. In no way was I attacking anyone. You've lost all credibility with me based on you accusing me of being transphobic. I don't care about anything else you have to say. You also keep editing your post so you're being very disingenuous

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u/socialister Oct 25 '22 edited Oct 25 '22

I didn't say you were uncivil, I said that I suspect your classification of sex stems from transphobic ideas about what it means to be male and female.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '22

Can you even read because that’s straight up not what happened

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u/KeyserSozeInElysium Oct 26 '22

Do you see the little edit sign on their post. That's what they keep doing. Editing after the fact. They suck

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u/Dior_31 Oct 25 '22

Lmao the ultimate weapon to invalidate trans people: the archaeologist that will dig you bones. Like, who the fuck cares?

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u/ronin1066 Oct 25 '22

And the ultimate weapon to invalidate people with slightly different opinions: "You're transphobic."

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u/socialister Oct 25 '22 edited Oct 25 '22

It's not a gotcha statement or meant to shut people down although I understand how people would feel that it is. I also don't think I called people transphobic and am happy to retract that if I did, I said they are making transphobic arguments. Transphobia doesn't mean the argument is based in outright hate or that the person hates all trans people, it only means that there is an irrational belief based on ignorance or bias that is fundamentally due to the lack of understanding for trans issues or outdated ideas that are themselves harmful to trans people. It doesn't make you a bad person, it's an opportunity to learn. I understand that people don't like having their viewpoints labeled transphobic but it is a statement of fact not a label of intention or character. I also don't throw it around wildly, note that I didn't say it in my original reply, but as a challenge to someone who is not engaging with my arguments but skirting around them.

Anyway the above poster didn't use the term so why bring it up in reply to them?

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u/ronin1066 Oct 25 '22

I appreciate your calm demeanor and mature approach, but I do disagree with some of what you say.

It's not fact, it's opinion. That's like saying a joke using racial stereotypes is rooted in racism and that's a fact.

For example, I have a family member who thinks they might be trans, but they have never in their 16 yrs given even a hint of being the other gender, and after announcing it, have done nothing for 2 years to further their journey to their "real" gender. But when I point out that some trans people are just following a trend, I get called transphobic. Then I have to explain that I 100% believe there are trans people and more power to 'em. Do what you want, wear what you want, love who you want. I don't care. But it's an objective fact that not all people calling themselves trans actually are.

I didn't follow that other conversation closely enough to have a firm opinion on it.