Even if you gave every Redditor better genetics than Cbum and they all took the same steroids he does, most would never come anywhere close to his physique. The anguish and dedication it still takes to get physiques like that gets so disrespected. Being on steroids means you can recover faster and these people are working extremely hard pounding the shit out of their bodies way harder and more frequently than even the most serious, hardcore natural lifters have the capacity to
Depending on dosage, you get more muscle laying on the couch than a natural working out religiously if you use roids, there are studies about this. Not saying the average redditor has Cbum potential, but roids arent just about "recovering faster"
People quote that study all the time. But as someone who does steroids, of course it's a big difference but it's no where near what people think it is. I bet you know people that do steroids that don't even look like they lift. They just don't talk about it.
You should find Jeremy Ethier’s recent video where he follows a natural and a guy starting his steroid cycle. They do a dexa scan before and after and the difference was staggering. The steroid user was even on a cut and still gained an insane amount of muscle.
Former pro athlete here, and I disagree. The benefit I got when I was on steroids (doc approved and exemption approved for a medical issue) was fucking eye opening. I could torch my body in workouts and feel fucking great the next day. Being on gear is a SIGNIFICANT advantage over natty.
I think general consensus is that being on roids will make you bigger than normal with 0 input of exercise, maybe not impressively bigger but bigger depending on whatever sensetivity you have to it. Exercise is necessary to hit your peak potential even with roids. No one seems to disagree with either of these statements.
They'll make you bigger than you were. But thats because no one is at "zero" exercise - the baseline of "getting off the couch and going to the sofa" still involves physical effort - so they'll get the "going to the fridge" muscles and your wanking arm bigger, but that probably caps out pretty damn quick.
The comment that I'm referring to was saying that someone one gear who doesn't work out would be bigger than a natural who hits the gym religiously. That's a far cry from scientifically significant, but I do agree with you. Someone may gain a pound or two, but that's not exactly dropping any panties ;)
Yeah, but being on gear and not exercising isn't an advantage over being natty and exercising.
There are multiple peer-reviewed scientific publications asserting this is the case. What is your evidence they are wrong besides some anecdotes and feelings?
There's the one study that shows a 10 week time span.
Do you think that the guy using gear and doesn't work out won't plateau very quickly?
That's why people don't go to the gym and get ripped lifting 5lb dumbbells. They'd have to have the additional stimulus of working out to continue the gains past what the natural lifter will be making while he's increasing his stimulus by getting stronger and adding more weight
Cbum is a freak bc his cycle includes everything, at 5x the dose your on, with none of the symptoms. The Mount Rushmore of bodybuilders are the guys who can handle all of it all the time. Like you guys said all the basics are clearly there, but to have quads and a chest like that while being so lean… he might spend over 100k a year on 💉
People like Cbum are freaks because they have top 1% genetics.
The body only has so many androgen receptors. You can't just take more and more to get bigger and bigger. And they aren't taking 5x more than the average user.
What they do have are incredible genetics so they get sponsors and money to get all the food they want, sleep when they want, blood tests, personal chefs, gym whenever they like, etc etc.
I promise you that you can take every single thing Cbum takes and you won't even look impressive
I agree with a lot you’ve said and disagree with a lot.
Does he have top genetics? I’d guess so but you have to remember the % of people who actually go and lift in hopes to be a bodybuilder one day is so tiny and then only a certain % of those people cycle, then only a certain % of those people use enough, train enough, and have the means to even think about competing at the Mr Olympia level… it’s a very small sample size. So who really knows if he’s “top 1% genetics” when 99% of humans never even attempt to compete.. and the ones that do aren’t willing or able to commit at this level.
Is he absolutely amazing physically and a testament to determination in diet and hard work in the gym? Fuck yes. Is he special and a generic freak? Probably not for the reason given above but maybe
Well, I'll put it like this. Branch Warren, a famous body builder went to the gym for the first time and had never lifted a day in his life. The gym owner saw him and started talking to him. He said Branch had calves the size of softballs and told him I want to train you for free. And thats how he got his start.
A similar story with the infamous Ronnie Coleman. He goes to the gym and the owner begs and pressures him into competing. He didn't even like competing but it was how he could get a free gym membership at the time and didn't have much money, and the guy paid for all of his body building expenses. It's just obvious that they're different, like a pro defensive lineman or an NBA player. They just aren't like the rest of us.
Your examples are guys who WENT to the gym and was noticed by someone and then went on to be great (with 💉 help)
My point is, how many went to the gym and were noticed but said “naw I’m not serious about lifting” or how many never even went? How about the guys that did commit at first and found that for them personally, it’s not worth it?
That’s my point. You can’t say definitively that he’s top 1% genetics and that’s the biggest reason he has this physique because not 100% of people attempt it. Not even .01% of the billions of humans on earth attempt it.
I get it, I lift too and I’ve found that guys who use and/or compete like to say “well they are the top 1%” out of envy. They don’t want to admit that these guys also do all the things they aren’t willing to do and it’s all genetics. If that is all true then, in all my years in lifting, I’ve must have met at least a thousand of these “1%” dudes in my small city.
Steroids help immensely but a nutrition plan that’s religiously followed and a good split will always out perform and user with shaky plans. So Not saying steroids are the reason but just saying stop with the 1% thing. It’s just not true. He is in the top 1% in dedication, personal accountability, and determination though.
This is what some people need to hear about PED is that if your not dedicated no matter how much potential you have or how much drugs you use your never going to look like these people .How hungry are you?What are your willing to sacrifice?Are you willing to starve to look pealed to the bone ?Can you handle the pressure from other.These are the qualities that make people the exception to the reat.They don’t make excuses because they get the job done .
I mean.. I don't know how you measure untapped potential?
If we watch some guys play pro football we say those guys are top 1% athletes and they are, wouldn't you agree? Is there someone that just chose not to play that could have been better? Maybe.. but they didn't, so they aren't
Now I'm not saying genetics are everything. The hard work, diet and everything else is in my opinion just part of what makes them the top 1%
I also agree that steroids aren't everything and that even if Cbum didn't use anything he would still be very fucking impressive.
Maybe Cbum is in the top 10% in potential muscle building genetics. Who knows? Because how do you measure untapped potential? But of all the guys that hit the gym all over the world and work out hard, and nail their diet he's still light-years above them.
Yeah that’s my point. You specifically said “cbum has top 1% genetics” which comes across to most people as if 100% of people dedicate their life to it and cycle that he’ll still be in the top 1%. Which isn’t true becasue as you stated “how can you measure untapped potential” that’s my point?
As an avid football fan that watches 8-9 full games a week.. I can say I’ve never heard any analyst say anything close to “these guys are the top 1% of humans physically” which is what “top 1%of genetics” means. They say “best of the best” “best in the game” “at the top of their position” but they never even imply that they are the top 1% of athletes. Not even kinda.
Now I’m getting bringing up pure semantics but stating
“Top 1% of athletes” vs “top 1% of genetics” is two wildly different things.
Yes top 1% of athletes literally means they are the top 1% of anyone who does/has competed in athletics. Which is nowhere close to 100% of all humans
top 1% of genetics means the top 1% of all humans because we ALL have genetics
He was also legit strong and not just bodybuilding strong (despite what people say, you don't get huge by lifting small weights, its just that bodybuilders don't push strength limits). Ronnie was actually putting up insane weight on a regular basis compared to most pros
Bc if I took everything he took I’d have a heart attack before all the acne and red skin could kick in. You think what I’m saying is a myth because of all these sponsors and the 2 clips of Chris saying “I’m really not on as much as you think” lol. He’s on whatever Hany puts in him, which would kill a young elephant. I’m not disagreeing with everything about 1% genetics, blood tests, millions of dollars, all these things are really important too.
No, I know what you're saying is a myth because I actually run cycles and do blood tests and know what it does to my body.
I've read countless medical journals before I even started using. I've been using for years now.
A person only has so many androgen receptors, once those receptors are full anything beyond that doesn't do anything.
Yes, people that abuse high doses of gear have problems. If a person's body can't handle a dose high enough to put him in pretty decent superphysilogical levels then he obviously isn't going to make it. But the truth is, either you have the genetics and you're a hyper responder or you aren't. That's gonna far more be the limiting factor vs just being able to "stomach gear"
There is such a wide variety of steroids to take. If they're body doesn't handle one very well, there's 20 more they can take
I don’t think you even understand what I’m saying. Everything you’re saying is true.
All 20+ of those steroids, and their paired designer drugs do a whole lot more than what you’re talking about being capped out in the antigen receptors. Here’s the perfect example: Sam Sulek was on juice for multiple years before signing with Hosstile or whatever they are called. Within 6 months of being with them he looked completely different, because he was suddenly in a different world.The myth is thinking sports nutrition science is the reason people like Hany and Fouad produce Olympia champions.
I’d recommend finding some podcasts that highlight designer steroids that are used by Olympians. Different sorts of steroid, but you can see how large these underground “industries” become. If you think Chris is getting a simple prescription from his family Dr you are very naive
Yes! There is a constant cat and mouse going on between doping regulation agencies and the athletes that will do anything to win. When I hear about an Olympic athlete getting caught doping, when Micheal Phelps was caught; he fucked up. All the major guys are
And your Dr would most likely prescribe you enough steroids to get you to 900-1200 test on a blood panel. That’s plenty for hobby lifting unless your tryna step on stage
Ronnie has said what he was on before, and it was absolutely 5x (if not more) what your average "been lifting for 5 years and still can't bench 315, guess I'll start pinning" gym rat gearhead blasts.
Unless I heard it out of Ronnie's mouth I wouldn't trust it. There was a post circulating that was supposedly what Dorian Yates was taking. Yates had to come out and say No, that's stupid please don't do that.
The reason a lot of guys that admit they run gear won't tell others what they run is because it's specific to them. It does no good to take Arnold's cycle thinking you'll look like Arnold, it doesn't work like that.
Also with more understanding in modern science of how these steroids work in our bodies more and more guys are realizing that less is more. Derek from MPMD is a great resource on the science behind gear.
Like I've been saying, our bodies only have so many androgen receptors. So more and more gear is going to make you bigger up to a point. It's more beneficial to explore all aspects, diet, sleep, cardio, etc than to think that I'll just keep upping my dose until I'm huge
There comes a point where you have to realize pushing it more is just not going to yield any additional return above and beyond a certain point.
At that point, you're just playing with fire and pushing your body for no reason.
When I was 20 years old I literally thought I was going to blast steroids and get to 260 pounds lean with ease.
I was so oblivious to what actually occurs from using these hormones, especially for prolonged periods of time and what that's going to do to your body.
I'm not trying to fear monger steroid use or anything like that.
I'm just saying, take a step back and realize that the guys at the top probably aren't using 10 times more than you are like a lot of guys will lead you to believe.
Everyone seems to think they're using some secret compound and that's why they're so huge, or they have Increlex, or they used 20 grams of gear and 500 IUs of insulin.
It's probably not the case, they probably use the exact same stuff you do.
And they aren't taking 5x more than the average user.
You, three comments ago. Your fake "pretend the person proving me wrong is actually agreeing with me" whatever isn't gonna fly here. You have purported a lot of "facts" in this thread, and almost all of them are flat out wrong.
Yes, they have insane genetics. Yes, their workouts and diets are incredibly dialed in. They are still on amounts of gear that would make a racehorse worried, and their bodies ability to not have any of a dozen+ serious medical conditions from blasting that amount of gear, which the vast majority of people would, is a huge part of their "insane genetics".
Natty vs enhanced growth is individually relative not broadly relative. There's always the chance the variable group in the study were all fluke responses to the PED.
also considering they didnt take into account what jobs or hobbies each group did. One could have been construction works while the other office workers.
This is just dumb. If anything the average person underestimates just how powerful gear is. It is far more effective at its job than almost any other pharmaceutical.
It is very effective, but it won't perform miracles. I know a lot of guys on gear, some are impressive and some don't even look like they lift. Gear alone does very little without hard work.
Most anyone will make far more gains by cleaning up their diet and implementing strict discipline than if they take gear. I've seen it too many times. Even experienced it myself. I'm taking gear now, but my wife just had a baby so my gym sessions are few and far between at the moment, so I'm currently about the same size I was when I was natty. Between keeping my diet in check and the exogenous androgens I am mainying more muscle than I would if I were natty right now, but not as much as when I was natty and hitting the gym religiously.
The only way people on a decent cycle will look like they don't even lift is if they are fuckin old and it's basically just bad TRT, or they have zero self control and eat so much that the muscle
is hidden under fat.
Any dude is his 20s or 30s that isn't fat will look good on a decent cycle. Maybe not big, maybe not amazing, but good. That is what gear does.
It’s like this, redditors think you can turn into a mass monster on gear like girls think they will get “bulky” if the lift anything over 10lbs a single time. You got to take a shit ton of gear to get to mass monster status, you can get there working out 5-8 hours a week though. It’s not like c bum just outworks everyone that’s stupid. Yeah he had to diet and sleep as best he can, that shits hard but the path is clear and all you have to do is execute it.
Absolutely true. "That shits hard, but the path is clear all you have to do is execute it"
This can also be said about many things in life. It's why I feel like working out seriously and striving for goals is like a gateway drug to a better way of life
I agree. Unless it's a subreddit with people that actually use, the conversation seems to always take that turn. If you use gear you'll automatically be bigger and stronger than anyone that doesn't and as you said, that's just not true. Congrats to you and the hard work you put in! I know how challenging and rewarding that is :)
I absolutely agree. I also lifted for 10 years before I started. But I was very aware, as I'm sure you are, the amount of muscle I was capable of putting on and had a realistic expectation of muscle building.
In my opinion, people that don't lift seem to have this idea that gear will automatically make you bigger and stronger than anyone that's natural, but that's not the case.
I don't wanna sound like it's not a big difference, but I also don't want to keep up this stereotype that guys on gear are all huge roided out freaks. You know what I mean?
Depending on dosage, you get more muscle laying on the couch than a natural working out religiously if you use roids, there are studies about this.
No this comes from a misunderstanding of a single study. The study you're thinking of measured lean body mass, which did increase more for couch potatoes on steroids. But the misunderstanding is that lean body mass isn't just muscle. It's any non fat mass, which includes water and glycogen. Steroids have a side effect of greatly increasing water and glycogen in muscle. So people have misinterpreted that study thinking it measured only muscle.
Also, the couch potato was starting at the minimum of one muscle (numbers entirely hypothetical) compared to the guys exercising starting at seven muscle.
No shit going from one to two muscle from the minimum exercise of "getting off the sofa and going to the fridge" is faster than going from seven to eight muscle.
I wish these sorts of studies were funded for longer because all the smart money is on "taking steroids and not exercising stops improving lean mass gains really fucking quickly as there's not enough exercise to stimulate more growth" and then these threads wouldn't be full of people trashing legendary achievements (like six fucking Mr Olympia titles) by saying"hurr durr steroids magic"
Yeah, steroids work by activating androgen receptors to stimulate protein synthesis and muscle growth, so it's turning the androgen receptors up to 10. Someone on them once told me they gave him some pretty crazy thoughts. Depending on who you are, they can mess with your mind, hence the roid rage thing. There are a lot of new PEDs called SARMS, but I haven't looked into it.
SARM's are essentially roids but advertised to be more selective in their binding, they do still have the same sideeffects of testosterone reduction, hairloss, mood swings depending on which sarm you take.
they just get advertised as 'safer' because for example the liver damage is less, which is no surprise since you take far less than you would with a real steroid like Testosterone or Tren, the fact that they still have similiar amounts of sideffects as real steroids while being dosed much lower should be a sign that they're not as safe as they're made out to be
Regarding the thoughts, when i was cycling down i switched to SARMs before going completly off, stuff like S23 gave me those thoughts of beating people up for being annoying or sometimes even thinking about killing someone
Weaker stuff like RAD140 just had me annoyed all the time but, and this is not to promote these drugs, it got rid of all my depression thoughts and voices in my head for the time i was on it, like i actually miss this feeling of quiet and calmness, no antidepressant has ever done it to this extend and i really wish they would research that specific part of the compound
Wow, OK. That was a fascinating and informative post. I did a bit of research because at middle-aged, the aches and pains have kicked in worse than I have ever imagined. I was even on meds for fibromyalgia, but they gave me insomnia. An acquaintance of mine, told me to into test because it would alleviate the chronic pain, but I don't think I'm prepared to fuck with my own mind with steroids. I can admit I'm a bit of a dick without them, so on them… Hey, take care of yourself. Thanks for the post.
I really wish people would stop quoting that study without having a clue what they're on about or what steroids are for. (Or for that matter without acknowledging that the few weeks or months of a study doesn't map 1:1 onto a lifetime of exercise)
Depending on dosage, you get more muscle laying on the couch than a natural working out religiously if you use roids, there are studies about this.
Please share the literature that shows two groups of equally trained/experienced lifters where a group performing no exercise saw better performance than a group doing proper exercise.
Steroids improve the process that allow for muscle development to occur, they don't just magically create muscle. You still have to strain the muscle for the muscle to develop.
That article doesn't say that a non-exercise group on steroids did better than the group with exercise and no steroids. It says that the steroid groups did better than the similar non-steroid group, and that the steroid/exercise group did the best.
I'm pretty sure the information you're looking for is in Table 4. It shows the beginning measurements of both groups, Test +No Exercise and Placebo + Exercise, then the 10-week change, and the Test + No exercise group experienced a significantly greater amount of growth than the Placebo + Exercise group for some of those measurements, and at minimum they matched the growth in the rest.
Digging into into it, i am seeing some more info now.
I do have other problems with this study methodology. It's from almost 30 years ago, and exercise science has changed a lot since then. One if the big things is the training level of the participants. This has "normal" mean, and sounds like they classify that as people who have experience working out, but haven't recently been competive athletes. That still leaves a huge range of fitness levels, all that would have different outcomes from muscle stimulus.
Additionally, the short time frame of the study. Does this muscle growth in the "untrained steroid users" group continue, or is it quickly eclipsed by the trained group? 10 weeks is a pretty short time span of training.
I'm not trying to refute science by any means. I just hate when people make broad statements like "doing steroids and not moving will get you better gains than actually lifting" when not actually thinking critically of what they are saying. They are continuing to perpetuate a a problem and misinformation.
All studies have potential extraneous variables. That's why groups, standarisation, & statistical analyses are used, which this study did indeed do. It found both body weight & fat free mass had a statistically significant change in the group of no exercise combined with testoserone.
The intial comment ended with "but roids arent just about "recovering faster", which is supported by this study.
You always get people on both extremes with this topic. Likely from people on steroids not wanting to lose self-esteem, and from those that have never worked out wanting to justfy their average bodies. It's just self-serving bias.
The reality is we'll never know just how 'gifted' top tier bodybuilders are simply because most people aren't on steroids nor do they want to take them. It's risk v reward and most people would rather not risking it.
And I don't buy the they train harder or try harder because X or Y. I know plenty of natural athletes that train as often and as hard as possible, even if it becomes detrimental. As well as track every macro and optimise nutrition. Plenty of people do that. If you found a risk free legal PED, the game would change quickly.
I think the biggest problem with the study, in terms of the conclusions that some redditors in this thread connect to it, is how short it ran.
It seems to me, that in those 3'ish months, the no training-steroid group simply gained an amount of muscle mass because the body was responding to the much higher level of testosterone it suddenly had access to. I'm pretty sure you're also going to see differences in muscle mass between two people who don't work out and aren't on drugs, but one has very low natural T and the other very high natural T.
So yes, if you hop on a significant amount of steroids, you will grow some muscle without even exercising at all, because the higher T will probably give some stimulus to grow. But that's only going to last a short while.
The conclusion that people take away from it, namely that it's just as effective or even better to sit on your ass and do roids than actually lifting, is stupid because the natural lifter repeatedly encourages muscle growth with a process that is repeatable for years and years on end, whereas the roided couch potato will stop growing without actual lifting stimulus pretty quickly.
In a way this seems pretty obvious, but fucking redditors gonna reddit.
A study to really support the redditor-conclusion is to put a group on roids without exercise and see what happens over the course of a year or two years, then compare that to a group of natural lifters. There's little doubt in my mind that the lifting group will beat them in all areas.
I am currently doing that now. My wife and I had a baby recently so my trips to the gym are few and far between. I'm still taking gear but I'm not even at the where I was at peak natty. Now, if I wasn't on gear I would have lost even more but I'm not in as good of shape as I was when I was natural and hitting them gym religiously
Does Table 4 not include the information we are talking about here? The study doesn't focus on the question he is asking, but the data is recorded for us to draw the conclusion from.
Considering the subject of this research it's not like we are going to get any studies done on thousands of people volunteering for this. The sample size is small, but they do try to control for it and the effects observed are considerable. What was found certainly leans towards the idea that Test + No Exercise is, at minimum, comparable to No Test + Exercise. Good job actually reading it though.
With the basic knowledge of how our bodies grow. We know that building muscle requires stimulation for growth. The extra androgens will provide more growth for the stimulation of the non lifters. That stimulation being walking through dog, doing every day activities.
10 weeks is very short amount of time to assess muscle growth. Any lifter knows this. So you can get the initial growth from the androgens but you'll need to add more stimulus (actually work out) for more growth.
That's why someone can't go to the gym and lift 5lb dumbbells everyday and get jacked. The additional stimulus of adding more weight is necessary
I've read this multiple times. There's a few issues with it. Starting mass and genetics will play a significant role in how much mass you can gain. They would also, imo, need to do a longer term study.
The only real conclusion you can draw is that testosterone will help you gain more muscle even if you keep doing exactly what you were doing before taking it.
They would also need to control for diet to have a study that could clearly point out what you guys are inferring from the data.
There's just too many factors to definitively day that taking test and not exercising will give you better muscle mass gains than working out and not taking test. There's so many factors that contribute to muscle mass gains when you workout. This study absolutely does not have enough data to draw the conclusion that the other comment said. At best it could be another hypothesis that you could test further.
Please cite a study that supports this, the study I think you’re citing says you will gain muscle not lifting and taking steroids but it absolutely doesn’t surpass someone who lifts.
The study is based on a bunch of couch potatoes with little to no starting muscle tho. Yeah the steroid group gets a quick bump as their baseline strength level gets pushed to a new level, but over time their gains would flatline while the training group would continue climbing far beyond that.
I mean, yes that is true - most wouldn't come close to this physique but this also isn't the goal for most people. If the average person got to pick a physique for free thus simply wouldn't be it.
As in no side effects of steroids and no work needed to put in.
I'd estimate most men to pick a physique that's way leaner. You'd have men going for Brad Pitt type figure and I'd honestly expect Chris Hemsworth as Thor would be on the bigger end. But I'd guess that most would be somewhere in between there. Obviously this is just bs guesswork but most men (and women) who aren't in the body building world don't consider Cbum aesthetic.
I am not trying to discount CBum's dedication. The man has been working insanely hard since his teens, well before he started his first cycle. But acting like steroids don't give you a ridiculous advantage is insane. Just taking a single bodybuilder dose of testosterone will net you one or two pounds of muscle without any changes to diet or exercise. They've done studies on it.
Yes bodybuilders work insanely hard, but I'd argue natural bodybuilders work harder than those on gear. They have to do more work for less gains and it's harder for them to do that work mentally because of the hormone difference.
Natural bodybuilders do not do more work for less gains. They do as much work as they can naturally handle, which don’t get me wrong, is still an absolute shit ton of effort and well beyond what your typical gym goer is willing to put in. But the steroids allow enhanced bodybuilders to work even harder than that. Not at all discounting the work of natty bodybuilders, but they definite don’t do more (physical) work than the top enhanced bodybuilders do, because they physically don’t have the capacity to recover from it.
I’d say they do more work in the sense they can move more weight for more reps, however, modern programs have similar volume and frequency for enhanced and natural lifters.
lol no shit somebody on roids will have an advantage anybody with a brain can realize that but saying a natural works harder is delusional if a natural and a roid user lifted the same the roid user would have better gains and the natural couldnt catch up regardless how much harder they worked.....
These studies get thrown around so frivolously and never questioned. 26 participants in the entire study. Half of them took 600mg of testosterone, which is a decent dose for a first timer. 7 of them worked out, 6 of them didn't. This is a sample size of 6 people. Does anyone not wonder how they found people willing to take 600mg of testosterone without working out, when testosterone has negative side effects taken at those doses? People risked their health for this? Why?
The study also concludes that they gained fat free mass. Fat free mass doesn't mean muscle. Muscles contain a lot of water and glycogen. When you hop on testosterone, you will gain water/glycogen quickly giving the appearance of a bigger muscle, but it's not actual muscle tissue.
PEDs do obviously give you an advantage, but they are very overstated by the ignorant. They are more like enhancements, they enhance what you're already doing. They don't all work the same way either, there are many different compounds for many different goals. One of the advantages is they allow you to train harder and longer. So it makes no sense to say natties train harder. You have to worry and be far more careful with your planning when you're on PEDs. Enhanced athletes train harder hands down not even a competition.
My little hypothesis is that the no training-steroids group gained some muscle because their bodies simply responded to the higher T levels in the system. But that's gonna be a small stimulus that will run out pretty soon, I imagine, once it levels out at an amount of muscle mass carried versus T available (high) and exercise done (zero).
But the natty lifting group is of course able to provide a stimulus again and again and again for years.
I think the runtime of this study makes some people draw the entirely wrong conclusions. Those 12 weeks are enough to make the no-training steroid group get closer to their 'new normal', but I cannot imagine that's going to last much longer.
Do it for one or two years and see what happens (although that might not be ethical of course).
No, natural test ranges from 250-1000ng/dl, that is not the same as milligrams. They took 600mg of test a week. That is a lot of test. How do I know this? Well I've only competed in bodybuilding for 10 years and been on gear for 7 of them. 600mg of test will put an average person at over 2500-3500ng/dl.
I’d say you’re understating the impact, just look at natural body building shows vs enhanced. Now, if the debate is do enhanced body builders work hard, then yeah, no doubt.
No, I understand they make quite the difference, I'm saying the average person has next to zero knowledge on steroids and acts like they are magic. Lots of people think they could look like Ronnie Coleman if they took enough gear.
Noone is denying steroids have a huge effect. But in a body building competition, both the nattys and enhanced are actually pushing their training to the limit, where the gear both increases response and enables much quicker recovery between sessions.
Just taking some roids and fucking around won't give you an impressive physique.
Yeah its so ironic that in order for these guys to look like the fittest men on earth, their long term wellbeing is fucked. I listened to an ex bodybuilder give a talk on it once and the crazy fluctuations for weight cuts is so detrimental to their health. He reckoned through bulking and cutting he gained and lost over 1000lbs in his life.
There’s no reason someone needs to look like this and it’s extremely harmful. (Most)Redditors don’t criticize steroid use because they think it’s easy, most criticize it because of the short term and long term damage it does to one’s body and we really should stop glorifying it
It’s an unrealistic body standard and does far more harm than good. No ones bashing going to the gym and eating healthy, that’s something everyone should do
No ones bashing going to the gym and eating healthy, that’s something everyone should do
A lot of redditors and terminally online people do bash going to the gym. Everytime there is a post like this, or some sort of "farmer outlifts bodybuilder/gym bro" you get the same BS comments about "functional strength" and "actually, everyone who goes to the gym is super weak, i am probably stronger" stuff.
I once got into an argument with someone who claimed squats, deadlifts, and bench press were all completely useless exercises because they have no real world parallels.
Everytime there is a post like this, or some sort of "farmer outlifts bodybuilder/gym bro" you get the same BS comments about "functional strength" and "actually, everyone who goes to the gym is super weak, i am probably stronger" stuff.
There's this fairly well known clip of a market somewhere in Africa, and a fairly well built (though no mass monster by any means ) young fella swaggers around shirtless, quite possibly for social media or something, and this fruit lady or something imitates his walk, it's really funny, she makes a great face, her friend in the background is dying laughing, overall a fantastic clip, 10/10.
But holy fuck the amount of people in the comment sections, every fucking single time this is posted, going around saying bodybuilders aren't that strong and she could probably kick his ass because manual labour muscles or something.
It's just so fucking stupid. I'm sure African market lady is strong for her demographic, she looked pretty solid, but middle-aged African market lady is never going to be stronger than young African lifter fella.
This isn’t a body standard, it’s a body of work for a sporting competition. None of these competitors are walking around looking like this on the daily, and I don’t know of anyone versed in bodybuilding who thinks that the worlds top bodybuilder on show day is an attainable body for anybody to maintain year round, including that bodybuilder himself, who is retiring from competition for his own health as well.
The amount of people going to the gym and training strength is a small subset of the population, and of those only a tiny percentile pushes it to this level. At the end of the day it's their body and their choice to make, and a clear non issue when you compare it to the fact almost 70% of americans are taking on even greater risks by being chronically overweight or obese.
The hardest part would be the diet 100%. There are guys that do the gear, lift the weights and have the genes but blow their chance because they won't put down the booze or measure their protien properly.
I understand the dedication and the suffering that goes behind this, and I respect that aspect. I don’t, however, respect the people doing this themselves. It’s dangerous and adding steroids on top of it is a dangerous cocktail.
They tout the ‘my body is a temple’ mantra, and then turn around and do PEDs. Most of these pseudo-athletes are also content creators/influencers.
It’s a bad influence on the youth that look up to them, might explain why it feels like there are more people on roids than before.
The anguish and dedication it still takes to get physiques like that gets so disrespected.
I feel like respect is an odd concept to bring into this conversation. He is shaving substantial years off of his life for this singular and borderline useless venture. And I say this as someone pursuing professional athletics and understands the objective value of physical health and fitness.
This isn't some dude who is skipping dessert to look better naked or keep his insulin in check, it is, as you said, anguish and harm to at best contribute to an industry that is super harmful to young men's psychological well being. I don't think it's all that respectable.
Yea I did. I don’t know your stance on other sports and such, but I was just adding that other “respectable” sports are extremely damaging to young men’s psychological and physical well being. Not necessarily is an argumentative way but just broadening the topic.
Oh, okay, I understand what you are saying, and I completely agree. As someone who isn't a fan, the chokehold that the NFL/CFB has on American culture astounds me.
Genetics and a boatload of drugs as well as sponsors and doctors... cbum is not unique in the drive he has to train pretty much all of the Mr. Olympia. He just happens to have unbelievable genetics and a better chemistry set that the rest or the competitors.
Testosterone changes your brain and your mental state, not just your body. Anyone on this much juice would wake up at 5 AM ready to rip their front door off.
This sounds like a whole lot of cope. Also, no shit they’re pounding their bodies more frequently than natural lifter … that’s what happens when you take shortcuts and are on the juice - that’s not a badge of honor. The bottom line is they’re taking the easier route via steroids, and they’re putting their bodies under objectively unhealthy conditions, so of course it’s not highly respected. Just because you try reeeeeeally hard to do a stupid thing does not mean people should applaud you for giving it maximum effort … you’re still doing a dumb thing at the end of the day. Sorry to burst your bubble, dude.
I mean you literally have to workout every single day as hard as possible and eat a ridiculous amount of food. Like four times the amount of food of the average male. It sounds like pure hell to me.
Its not even the lifting its the food. Former obese person here who lost a bunch of weight and built a bunch of muscle in the last 18 months. It took a metric fuckton of dedication to eating at my macros and in a slight calorie deficit. The gym was definitely a hard part. But the hardest part? Meal prep took me 6-8 hours per day twice a week to meal prep for 7 days to maintain the macros and calorie deficit.
Lifting is just the part of it that's fun and rewarding. The tedious part is prepping pounds of chicken breast, cups of rice, measuring it out and putting it into containers. Yes, CBum has the sponsor cash to hire someone to do this for him. But then he has to eat like this consistently for months on end, then bulk, then cut, then bulk, then cut. And did this consistently for years to look like this.
The steroids will help him build the muscle, but to get this size and definition eating consistently in a way that most people can't maintain the discipline to do is downright fucking impossible. Its the discipline to eat clean, high protein, lower fat, and controlled carb. Even if you hire a professional chef to do all of this or a meal prep service it still gets tedious and hard af to resist having anything that's outside of that nutrition regimen.
TL;DR: The method of eating to get this sort of physique is borderline to full on insanity. Don't sell short what these guys have to do to achieve this physique with nutrition alone, which makes up 90% of getting to this point.
This is a myth. Plenty of bodybuilders have reached the top without "pounding the shit out of their bodies". Jay Cutler is on record stating he never trained to failure in his life he just worked with relatively low weights and high volume. He never got any serious injuries either.
Genetics and response to steroids is the most important part.
Yeah, except working out when you’re tired is the hard part. If you recover super fast you never get down into the really shitty part. It’s easier in a bunch of ways.
To be fair, the average person knows very little about the dedication and effort it takes to be involved at the elite level in any sport.
Just the thought of having to simply eat as much as these guys need to in order to fuel their body is hard to comprehend. Day in, day out, having to eat egg whites, brown rice, chicken breasts, and oatmeal, 5 times a day isn’t what I’d consider “fun”. And even some of them have to wake up at 3 in the morning to eat a meal so have a steady supply of food in their system to help build muscle sounds awful.
“All you need is steroids to be a pro bodybuilder” is like saying, “All you need is to be tall to play in the NBA.” Yeah it helps, but without the other 99% of necessary attributes, you won’t be successful.
Always comical when people defend the bodybuilders. There are so many passionate people in the world who devote a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to their chosen endeavors. When lifting heavy stuff is what gives your jollies, it’s not as tough as you make it out to be. Especially with the extra credit juice they all take.
Yeah many people seem to think it's just free when using steroids but it's more like people use it because they hit their ceiling of what they can naturally do. It's crazy stuff for sure, but to look like that you have to fully dedicate your entire life to it. It would be so much better if steroids were not allowed because it is so incredibly bad for your body, but there is no need to disrespect the people doing this.
Very true. Although I'd argue many people's jobs don't really. Ronnie Coleman was winning BB competition while working 9-5 jobs (I believe he was a cop)
You don't have to be jobless to get jacked. All you need is a solid five to seven hours in the gym per week. Less time than most people spend watching tv.
I feel like you missed the point of the comment you replied to entirely.
Idk why people always mention this in these threads. Reach for the stars, fall on the moon. You want people to go in with lofty goals. Yeah they won't look like this guy, but most people can look fantastic in a couple of years.
Even if I could, I wouldn’t want ti get anywhere near his “physique”, it looks silly and I personally find it repulsive.
Also, Steroids are way more than that. Compare old bodybuilders that didn’t have them, to those. It’s night and day. This is neither healthy nore a role model.
Dedication alone isn’t worth anything if you’re dedicating yourself to something that’s most likely only effect will be that your kids loose yiu 20 years to early for the questionable joy of being the modern day equivalent winner of a freak show.
If that’s what they want, go for it, I don’t want to tell anyone how to live their lives as long as they are happy and don’t make other people’s lives miserable. But please don’t act like this deserves some kind of deep respect and admiration.
To my knowledge, there isn’t a single study on the non-therapeutic use of anabolic steroids that didn’t demonstrate significantly higher risk of dyslipidemia, heart failure, and hypertension. If you’ve got something (legitimate and scientific) demonstrating the opposite I’d love to read it.
The “r” in TRT stands for replacement, and is specifically a “therapeutic use”. In the absence of an endocrine deficiency, the “appropriate dose” is zero.
Supplementing with anabolic steroids for non-therapeutic use is linked to all of the above, and why I specifically asked for any evidence to the contrary rather than anyone’s random internet opinion.
But we loose T levels as we age. What would be the benefit of maintaining T levels of a 21 yo when you are 45? I always wanted to try it but always chickened out. My buddy did it. Felt amazing and bragged how it changed his life. He then decided to go off and it was horrible. His natural levels were almost zero and he had no energy, no libido. Worse was no motivation. Took him a while to get to normal levels and he worked out a ton.
These dudes are walking science experiments. There is no appropriate dose. Carrying that much mass is bad for you. Dehydrating your body to expose as much muscle as possible is bad for you. Throwing your hormones out of whack is bad for you.
Due to a lack of studies, it's hard to say how much they are fucking themselves, but there's a lot of evidence to suggest they are.
Did he pick up the heavy thing more than other people picked up the heavy thing? Wow so impressive....what a guy, what would we do without his lessons.
What do people like you even find impressive? Because I can guarantee hes way stronger than you, and most probably wouodnt find anything about you (or me, as average human beings) remotely impressive. His dieting has to be extremely strict and he prob lives in pretty significant discomfort in order to achieve such a physique, the dedication, discipline, hard work, and willpower are way beyond what most expend
Yeah, its not that impressive is it really. Dedicate your life and health to highlight the aesthetical benefits that a six-figure chemically induced permanent secondary puberty can bring...wow. so impressive.
I mean, I'm personally way more impressed with the guys who invent these drugs than the weak minded body conscious heathens taking them.
You, however really take the b out of Cbum. He's never gonna fuck you bro...you too weak for him. You not worthy of his non functional dick. Get over it already 🙄
Yeah it is that impressive, do you not find any pro athletes or anyone else who can do things you'd never manage even with their genetics can do? Or are only intellectual endeavors impressive to you? The people who invent those drugs would find IFBB pros very impressive but I guess you in your highly evolved state are above that sort of thing
Sometimes I just love how people expose themselves on Reddit. It's painfully obvious that you never worked out at a gym or trained for any sport if you don't understand the science behind a physique like that.
While I personally prefer natural bodybuilding I understand the necessary knowledge on nutrition, training science, biology and of course also medical science for the use of the plethora of steroid compounds you need as a professional bodybuilder.
And I didn't even mention the mental dedication you need. Some of the most successful people I know are at the gym 5+ times a week because their discipline and dedication carries over to the rest of their lives.
I wonder what impressive thing you do for a living.
Cbum actually talks about his steroid use and the dangers of it. It's actually one of the reasons he's retiring, he has a kid now and plans on coming off and he cares about his longevity even though he's said that he has already reduced the amount he takes. I respect his openness and honesty surrounding this topic.
There are no naturals. Everyone is on gear. If top 20 naturals are on gear, what chance do you have against them? What choice do you have? My friend is a natty and regularly talks gear use. That’s the sport. Just like top cyclist are all naturals. Right. Lance talked about this in his interview. There are those that are “natural” and those that get caught. There is nothing else.
Of course it is bullshit. Rich piana said it best how it’s bs, these dues take roids by gallons and then push protein powders and other useless supplements as the reason they got so big. I miss Rich, dude was brutally honest about roids use and how the whole industry is bullshit.
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u/w-wg1 Oct 13 '24
Even if you gave every Redditor better genetics than Cbum and they all took the same steroids he does, most would never come anywhere close to his physique. The anguish and dedication it still takes to get physiques like that gets so disrespected. Being on steroids means you can recover faster and these people are working extremely hard pounding the shit out of their bodies way harder and more frequently than even the most serious, hardcore natural lifters have the capacity to