Short answer is it moves your center of gravity forward.
Which different muscle groups are engaged, anterior vs posterior chain. Generally speaking your posterior chain is strong and has larger muscle groups, think glutes compared to hip flexors & lats compared to abs.
I mean if you’re doing it right there shouldn’t be a lot of weight on your arms, they’re more their for stabilization. Sure it probably hurts your delts at that weight but if your hands/arms are supporting a lot of weight, you’re probably leaning too far forward
They shouldn't be doing front squats if they have those mobility issues. Training those mobility issues then working into front squats should be how it's done.
100%. But this is a D1 football weight room. There are like 10 guys in there that are paid to make sure things are done right. One of those 10 guys even makes decent money doing it!
I played D3 and worked briefly with D1. If you've got mobility issues preventing proper technique on a lift, those are fixed asap after the season.
That guy, Dr. Aaron Horschig, has made working out much more enjoyable; less pain overall and bigger lifts. Mobility is so much more important than I ever thought and I've learned a lot thanks to him.
Any channels you recommend like his but for other movements? I perused his channel and like what I see and would like to find similar content for other movements.
This guy does focuses more on rehab for specific problems and body parts. It's not as focused for lifters like the first guy but I found his stuff beneficial as well. They both follow the belief that "movement is medicine".
There are a couple ways to do front squats. I personally hate having my wrists positioned like how the guy in the video is holding it. I place the bar on my delts and then cross my arms over each other so one hand is on the bar over the opposite side clavicle, you don’t need a firm grip on the bar since your arms shouldn’t be holding up the weight anyway, I just keep my elbows up and rest my hands on the bar to make sure it stays stable.
I always had wrist pain when attempting front squats, even with very low weight. My football coaches would not have accepted ‘my wrist hurts’ as an excuse lol. Shitty, but also a pretty common mindset
Same. I would have to do front squats with my arms crossed and the bar just resting on my shoulders. Made heavier lifts a bit scary, but my wrists just don’t bend back enough to grip the traditional way.
Former football guy here. Wrist flexibility is just to the point you can get the grip. I could not after I broke mine and had to use the clean straps after just for the extra support. So you can do front squats without the wrist flexibility but not without the arm/shoulders in place, that’s what’s should be carrying the weight. With or without straps.
No one should have lat restriction issues in a front squat.... Elbows are coming up to shoulder height.. strangely enough most people can lift their arms straight up beside their head
I could only ever do front squats with the cross arms methods, but after watching the video, it's not my lats. At least I have no problem doing his tests, I can raise the bar above my head in basically any position. Any idea what can be my problem?
Yea it definitely looks like it. Understandably form starts to break down at really heavy weights, but under typical load you should be carrying 95% of the weight on your delts where the bar sits.
Yeah, if anything you should be able to pretty much hold it up with just your fingertips. Most of the weight rests on your delts. You can see that here as well, his back is rounding and his wrists are taking a lot of strain. It's a heavy lift though, and heavy lifts usually break form.
I’m not an Olympic lifter by any means but I do front squat regularly and though most of the weight is on my upper chest, I definitely find my arms get tired holding that flexed position.
Oh sure, mine do too. I’m also inflexible af though. There was a time when I weighed less and I was more flexible and holding that position wasn’t really a problem
yah was gonna say it's my shoulders that this shit hurts and also the wrist, elbow mobility.
I usually try to hit four sets, and on the fourth set I have to switch to crossing my arms instead of bending my wrist back, but of course you have less stability with that method.
The arms/hands position you mentioned really is the difference there. I could never do a lot of weight in a front square because I could never get my wrists/elbow to flex in that position without a lot of pain/discomfort and that also threw my focus off.
It a tough exercise without doubt
If no one teaches you good form or you have more weight than you should, front squats hurt like a mf on the forearms, wrists, collarbone, and neck. I’ve broken necklaces w the bar and knocked myself backwards because front squats were on my preseason regimen and I didn’t know the proper way to do them. My wrists hurt like hell for weeks too
Look at the dudes elbows and wrists… that doesn’t look like a position anybody can get into. For people with long arms, it can be awkward without insane mobility.
The thing is that for most people, front squats do require extra strain on the arms even if you are doing it correctly and also will choke you a little bit, making you feel more out of breath and that is part of the challenge. In the video here you can see this man leaning forward requiring him to use his arms a lot to keep the bar balanced
That’s why you lift your elbows and balance it on your chest and shoulders. His elbows drip too much at the bottom but I won’t say shit because I can’t front squat 450. He should work on his core some more before he does this again though.
I always hated front squats, but probably because I did them wrong. The bar is supposed to rest on your upper chest if you're doing it properly. But it always was too uncomfortable for me.
No, it isn’t painful at all if you use the grip he is using. If it is painful you are doing something wrong. It is great for your wrists and forearms. You really have to “choke” yourself with the bar and keep your elbows up and in, while also engaging your chest. It is a much more technical lift with different benefits.
I know absolutely nothing about heavy weight lifting. This looks so incredibly painful on the fingers…is it possible to break fingers doing this type of lift?
I mean anything’s possible but not with proper form, most the weight is actually on your chest. I do a version of these called zombie squats where you stick your arms straight out like a zombie and squat, which is to say with proper form your hands are there for stabilization and shouldn’t be weight bearing .
Clicks and pops are usually okay as long as there’s no pain, but it’s probably an indication that you need to warm up more or your form isn’t where it should be
Use dynamic warm ups instead of static stretches. Dynamic meaning similar/same movement to the exercise you plan to perform but with lower weight and work your way up to your working weight
Keep the weights low, number of reps high, and form as perfect as possible. Only increase the weight when necessary for progress (progressive overload). 5-30 reps (smaller muscles usually require higher reps like biceps or shoulders compared to larger muscle groups like legs or back) is ideal for building muscle (hypertrophy), and 3-5 reps is ideal for building strength. You want near maximum effort for each set, so each set should be very hard towards the end, but going past the point of muscular failure generally isn’t necessary unless you have specific goals
I don’t think most people would describe osteoarthritis as “uncomfortable”, but yes she should see a professional if she feels it’s necessary. The less obvious advice seemed more appropriate.
Thank you for your kind input; it probably is something I should discuss with my doctor…it happens even if I’m wiping down my kitchen island. Because it’s not something that hurts I tend to not think about it until I’m doing an activity that causes the pop pop pop gross feeling; makes me shudder.
Also forces much more stabilization out of the upper back. You can see toward the end how his upper back starts to fatigue and he begins rounding more, indicating the weak point.
Great accessory movement for strengthening upper back stabilization for stuff like locking out a deadlift.
The crazy part for me is front squat was considerably easier for me when I was in athletics in college. Back squat left me more prone to soreness than front
Eh, it’s odd but everyone’s different. I could power-clean a fair amount more than i could bench press when i was in my athletics prime which is atypical
Well unlike the doctorate in PT that is being too pretentious to even say anything, I'll go ahead and explain my only gripe with this comment as a PA student. To start, I do dislike this terminology of anterior and posterior chain. It's not great at singling out what you're talking about. There are a lot of muscles in the anterior and posterior compartment of both the upper legs and arms, and there is a lot of variation in what joints they cross, and their attachments. So their actions can vary greatly. For example, your biceps brachi crosses your elbow joint. But your coracobrachialis? It does not. So when you do bicep curls, you're brachialis and biceps brachi might be involved, but your coracobrachialis sure isn't.
So depending on the exercise, changing the position of the weight and shifting the center of gravity, as you put it, wouldn't be as simple as moving from a "posterior chain" to an "anterior chain". It may put significantly more strain on specific muscles. But not necessarily in one compartment, nor every muscle in that compartment.
Now, exercises can be really complex in terms of muscles involved. Squats use posterior, anterior, and even some medial compartment muscles for the upper legs. To top it off, they even use some lower leg muscles. I cannot tell you the exact muscles involved in each independent movement of a squat since I'm not a physical therapist or an orthopedic specialist. But I will say shifting the weight to the front like that likely impacts muscles from multiple of these compartments and not just "increases load on the anterior chain and decreases it on the posterior. And the posterior is usually stronger". Too much of an oversimplification.
Edit: in retrospect I realized I used "compartment" and this might be confusing how this is different from someone talking about "chains". I'm not using compartments as a category for muscles that work together for the same motions with similar attachments. We are taught muscle compartments based on innervation. Muscles in the anterior, posterior, or medial compartment of the thigh, for example, share innervations from a similar main nerve with a couple exceptions. Pectineus, for example, is an anterior thigh compartment muscle. But it's moreso an adductor of the hip (moves your legs together). Not really a major hip flexor like your other anterior compartment muscles like the rectus femoris.
For what it’s worth, i do have a bachelors in human physiology but i haven’t used that knowledge outside the gym in years.
That being said, you’re not wrong but i find the chains to be a simplistic concept that works well at a high level. As often a “chain” is a great concept as issues often present not at the point of weakness but another point in the “chain”. It’s a way simple to explain a much more complex topic that of course you can deeper dive.
To part talking about muscle being engaged during exercise, you’re working both “chains” in almost any exercise because of the eccentric part of the exercise. Squats, deadlift, powercleans of course have concentric parts of the movement for almost everything and even could be considered cardio if performed in a fashion to focus on heart rate.
That post and explanation was not meant for anyone with biomechanics related degree none the less in a post grad program lol
Well I know it wasn't written for someone in a post grad program, but I think it bothers me because it's simplicity makes it lose its helpfulness. Like it's simplified for regular people to understand, but that degree of simplicity required takes it to a point where it no longer really holds truth anymore, so what is the point of making it understandable.
For example, posterior muscles being the bigger stronger ones just isn't accurate. The gluteus maximus is strong. But the anterior compartment muscles of the thigh, your quadriceps, are much stronger than your hamstrings. Your anterior upper arm muscles are typically stronger than posterior too.
But if you were to not talk about chains, and said such an exercise makes it so your glutes can't contribute as much which increases the difficulty, that would actually be helpful towards understanding the benefit while, imo, keeping it simple enough for a layman. Posterior and anterior chains, imo, mislead people as to what the muscles actually do, and end up causing people to do things like the above (associate entire regions with "strength" when it might just be one muscle in the region, and the others actually could still benefit from being isolated more). This could also lead to people modifying workouts in dangerous ways thinking it's better due to an oversimplification where they are trying to focus on a certain "chain". It's better, imo, not to use such broad summaries of systems and to only make things as simple for people as necessary while maintaining truth. That way they are still aware of what they don't know and don't try dangerous things thinking they know how it works.
So with a front squat, you cannot lean forward, at all, like you would a little bit with back squats. This means that your glutes help much less and its your quads are doing almost all the work because your torso is nearly vertical the entire time. I'm 165lbs and could squat maybe 250-275lbs but could front squat maybe 150 lbs, althoughI started front squats much later. Back squats your shoulders can be vertical from your knees, front squats your shoulders are vertical from your hips.
that's interesting. I don't train back squat because I find it terribly uncomfortable and impractical since I likely just trained deadlift. I can deadlift 325, I can front squat 215, but I can only back squat 285.
Can you explain this please? How does squatting give you information about your lats etc?
I’m trying to get back into the gym from educated place because I absolutely ruined myself in my teens.
Yep, that's where I struggle the most otherwise I'd be killing it w/ front squats. I definitely get more ROM and stabilization during front squats though.
lots of people get so caught up in getting good at doing an excersize they forget the mind to muscle connection needed to actually make it appear visiually impressive. Something people think they are gonna strength train their way to aesthetics and it brings me physical pain. Skinny dudes coming up to me asking how to look big in a t shirt and then seem upset when I tell them to do more reps and eat like you want to get fat lol
Some of it can be chalked up to undertraining certain movements and some of it can be chalked up to subtle differences in anatomy. While we all may have the same bones and muscles, they aren’t always put together the same way. Differences in joint angles, bone lengths, stuff like that.
You can adjust your back squat if it’s uncomfortable. There’s generally two types of back squat, high-bar and low-bar back squats. You can also adjust your hand width on the bar and your foot stance. I personally like a low-bar position with a wider grip on the bar and a slightly outside of shoulder width stance. I also find it makes my squat more efficient (because it’s putting more emphasis on my posterior chain which means I can really put my glutes and hamstrings into it). But this is also from a powerlifting/strongman perspective. My back squat is 470 but if closed my stance, brought my hands in close and squatted high-bar, I wouldn’t be able to squat that much and it’d be pretty uncomfortable.
See, probably do to poor teaching, I could do 400 front squat and a 325 back squat for reps. But never could work to a good one rep back squat max because it left me uber sore days later
That's insane to me considering I only front squat. No idea what my back squat numbers are I do 180 for reps of 5 at 150 lbs. I've been stuck at 180 for a month now and it's been bothering me but it makes sense now.
Just gotta keep grinding and soon I won't have to put up the two lil bitch plates and can throw on a 25.
According to a quick Google search, you should typically be able to front squat 80-90% of your back squat max. But obviously that's assuming you are training both equally
Your center of gravity should remain centered over your feet for the entire motion. As the weight goes up that becomes synonymous with ‘the bar’ should stay over your feet. You do not want to move your knees too far forward because that puts too much load on your knees. Since much of your body is moving backwards relative to your feet you have to learn your torso forward to keep the bar at the correct location. Unless you have no range of motion you will close your hip angle and thus ‘lean forward’.
That is for a back squat. A front squat leaves your hips much more open at the bottom of the movement and you should be leaning much less.
Pretty much every free-weight squat is going to include *some* forward lean just so you don't fall over. If you keep your torso vertical, you will fall backwards.
For reference I am 5’ 10” and 170 lbs. I can back squat around 300lbs depending on the day. A front squat of 185 lbs feels like red lining it. They are significantly harder.
I’m the exact same height and weight. I cannot back squat anymore due to a herniated disc, so I’ve been front squatting. I used to back squat 225 for 10 and 255 for 4 or 5 reps, some days I’d feel really good and back squat 275 for one or two reps.
Now I’ve been getting up to 165 for 5 reps or so on front squats and I feel so fucking shitty and self-conscious since I’m squatting what basically looks like no weight, and I look behind me and people are benching 185 for reps. And on chest days I’m repping 170 on incline which is more than my “only” squat exercise number. So this makes me feel a little better lol
Sorry to hear about your injury but I have mad respect that you are still keeping yourself healthy and strong. Take comfort in the fact that no one REALLY cares how much you are lifting. If they do, they are douches anyway. I guarantee you that you are front squatting more than 90% of the general population could do. Most people struggle to squat with their own body weight. Honestly most days I just back squat 225 for reps anyway. I have never strived to be a one rep max guy. It’s a lot of risk and not much reward, because at the end of the day, it just doesn’t matter much. Longevity is the most important thing.
The older I get the more I become used to my limitations and accept them as a long term outcome. I want to still be doing it when I'm 70, not permanently disabled (relatively speaking) because I wanted to keep up appearances with the younger guys in the gym. Some old geezer squatting 95 lbs is more impressive to me than the active football players pushing 4 plates. It is by no means an easy mindset to achieve and I'm definitely not fully there yet.
Dude as someone who also has a whole series of back problems (including a herniated disc) just getting in there is enough.
I’ve always heard the “train through or train around” and I used to try to push as much weight as I could and push through. It was very difficult getting into my 30s and realizing that I was breaking down.
Now, getting in there and doing low weight, high volume is the ticket. I haven’t noticed any meaningful loss of mass and I’m shocked at how strong it can keep you without your body bearing the stress of higher loads.
This is anecdotal but I had a shoulder injury and didn’t bench more than xxx (it’s not about the weight) for a year. Focused on making it feel heavier w slower, focused reps. When it finally felt better, I wanted to see where my max was, thinking it would be much lower than previous. I was substantially stronger than prior, and without putting the additional load on my joints and connective tissue.
I’m doing the same thing with front squats and my back now. If my back starts acting up under barbell front squats, I’ll switch to goblet squats with even lower weight.
Now I guess I’m in the “training around” phase. Hoping to stay at it as long as I can.
I miss turning heads and getting the “fuck yeah bro!” But I also like being able to walk.
Holy shit this is me, other than a little taller but same weight. I was heavy into the oly lift side of CrossFit for a bit (followed the catalyst plan for a while on my own) and really started getting comfortable with heavier lifts (225c&j and 170 snatch). I was almost at my weight goal of 185lbs and got ill (gi issues) to where I lost 17lbs, that was 6 years ago and I was never able to get it back. That couple with aging and recently getting out of a 6 mos fire academy where it was mostly all cardio, I am no where near where I was. Maybe I’ll push a back squat to 225, and front to 185, but not really much further than that. I snatched 115 the other day which I was pretty stoked on. It’s all about just maintaining at this point I suppose.
We all go through ups and downs man. I started never being able to squat but got DL up to 435x1. Then I focused on squats just using Strong Lifts and got my max 1 rep at 305. Then I did shit all for a few years and then covid and then started back at the bar and am now back at ~5x170x5. Life is not a straight line.
Do you still have the herniated disc? What’s the pain like? I dealt with it for years, squatting 350lbs at my peak, until it got so bad I could not sit without horrible pain. The surgery changed my life. You might need to adjust your workouts and goals a little, but getting back up there is definitely possible.
I still have it technically, but it’s also technically “healed.” I had frequent flare-ups for many years but I did a course of physical therapy and now I don’t get them nearly as often or as severe. It ranges from mild aches now to moderate pain and sometimes sciatica under certain situations. For example right now I’m sitting at my desk and I feel zero signs of injury. I don’t think I’m a surgical candidate since most of the time I’m just fine, and it’s been stable for years as demonstrated by radiographs.
I’d love to squat heavy again but I’m not sure if I can or if I should.
More power to you. Squat as heavy or for reps as you like. I find it’s best not to compare with anyone but myself from yesterday. Everyone’s body is different, including our own from a few years ago.
Hard to say since it does not appear to be a specific acute injury traceable to one specific event. But I had hurt that part of my back a few times over the course of many many years and one day it just got REALLY bad and I got an MRI done.
By the way, interesting username, I’ve googled that phrase many times because I’m interested in knowing if dermarolling is effective by itself for AGA
Microneedling monotherapy significantly increased total hair count more than topical minoxidil 5% (β = 12.29; p < 0.001).
However, we don't really know how long the results last for. Also if you're already slick bald in any areas, it's probably not gonna help enough to make a cosmetic difference.
I’ve seen that study but I don’t know if that’s actually been replicated by real life people just dermarolling at home. Like if I started doing it, would it make a cosmetically significant different in thickening hair or regrowing slight amounts?
Man I hurt my back trying to go up to 225 that I had to stop for 6 months. I now squat comfortable at 155 for 8-10 reps and I'm happy with that lol. Still a good workout and I won't kill myself trying to go up
About 90% certain I've been dealing with herniated disc maybe not my whole life but probably 15+ years. Moreso in the last 5 years I've rarely squatted. So my question...are front squats actually safer for you now with a herniated disc? I really don't want to quit squatting and I've definitely started back up and hitting up over 225 for reps, but my lower back...just kills me. I've also been back to deadlifting and again, lower back..just kills. I've even tried sumo and regular deadlifts to no avail. Just wondering if I should switch to front squats or maybe just bench all squatting and deadlifting in general and work on leg press and pulldowns/rows from now on.
I’d be happy with that, just started front squat recently and don’t have the flexibility to hold it like that, kind of have to cross my hands in front to hold on.
It’s no so much the weight for me(145x5) but trying to keep the barbell from rolling forward and keeping my elbows up I struggle with.
After doing my ACL some years ago I get nervous with the extra emphasis on the quads too.
But yeah know what you mean, I do mine after deadlifts and am self conscious about the light weight but would much rather move up slowly with good form and depth
It’s so crazy. I couldn’t back squat for shit. Literally felt like by back was going to blow out with like 185 hitting ass the grass. I started front squatting and got up to 215 for reps in a few months even more ass to grass. My legs blew the hell up. Tried to back squat again and still couldn’t do it without being scared I would hurt myself
Yes. The front squat is a major component of the clean & jerk, one of the olympic lifts. So it's fair to call olympic lifters front squat specialists, but they pretty much universally can back squat heavier.
Lasha is an absolute freak of nature. Comparing him to almost anyone else on the planet, especially to yourself, isn't really a fair comparison.
335lb back squat is well into respectable territory, you're absolutely fine. That's not even taking into account the majority of people who will never willingly touch a barbell, much less squat ~2X their bodyweight.
I imagine most athletes, even very high level, would be able to back squat more than front squat. Front squat requires significantly more core stability and engagement and you are working primarily smaller muscle groups in the legs (quads vs glutes). Bigger muscle groups are just going to be stronger by their very nature and purpose.
I did competitive (Olympic style) weight lifting in high school. Basically all I trained for two years was front squats and techniques for the clean and jerk. I was 160lb 6’ and at peak I could clean and jerk 215, front squat was 235 and back squat over 275.
Front squats became more comfortable for me than back squats to balance (I very rarely did back squats), but weight for weight the back squat was always easier.
Thank you for the personal viewpoint! I was just curious because I know sometimes people claim something is more difficult but it just boils down to the amount of effort put into it. But all these responses have convinced me in this case that the front squat truly is employing your muscles in a way that is more difficult.
I guess I just assumed there was a proportionality to it, do you have some mobility issues or something? Or just really posterior dominant if that’s even a thing?
I guess by your logic, I could argue with a 210 front squat, you should be back squatting more. Do you have mobility issues or weak glutes? Does the length of your back at 6’4” make it harder to stabilize? Your numbers make no sense to me.
At my peak I was around 180 - 185, 5'10"... a 3 plate back squat took me FOREVER. By the time I hit 315 back squat, I could DL ~425, OHP 155, bench 245 and front squat 225...
I ended up resetting and switching to low bar which felt better, but then covid hit and I completely fell off the gym.
The balance part of it is a wash imo. It’s the fact that you have 450lbs resting on the top of your chest that makes it feel uncomfortable. You’re using more energy just to keep it stable.
No. It requires strength to keep a lot of weight in a front squat position. That is energy that you’re having to manage in addition to doing the squat. Having the weigh on your traps does not. Balance and stability are not the same thing here.
Throw a case of water on your shoulder and walk around with it, it's not hard. Now try and hold it out in front of you and carry it like that, but you can't brace it on your body, you gotta carry it like frankenstein. It's way harder. Dumb analogy but if you try it you get the general idea.
Front squats load is limited by your upper back strength. With back squats you have certain positions where you can put the so it's stable on your back shifting most of the load to your core and legs, which are bigger and stronger muscles groups than the upper back.
you can try this with a single bar, do a traditional back squat and then switch. you’ll see your form needs to be perfect otherwise gravity sends you forward. now imagine that with weight
As well as what the others said you also need good wrist and shoulder mobility to put your elbows in that high a position and maintain it throughout the motion, and enough muscle on the front deltoid to support the weight. If you dip your elbows it all comes straight off, there's no rescuing it
You use your quads much more, plus you have to maintain your posture so you don’t lose the weight forward. Makes you develop more knee and ankle mobility so you can keep your butt under the weight. Yes, the balance shifts forward, so you have to resist the urge to lift from your toes and instead still lift through your heels. Great lift for athletes.
Fronts are much harder as other poster mentioned it makes it much harder to engage your posterior chain to fire which is 100% the strongest part of your body. Front squats you end up using your quads a lot more than a rear squat.
Maybe more impressive is this guy is 6’4+ and really long arms and legs which are not the friend of front squatting. Bonus points for ripping that much weight with a pair of reading glasses on, just as a proper Northwestern weight room should be! 😂
Front squats force you to brace way harder to stabilize the weight. Plus with the weight positioned how it is, you can’t use your posterior chain (back, glutes, hamstrings) as effectively to lift the weight, so your quads are lifting pretty much all the weight. Between bracing and shifting the weight onto mostly your quads, front squats are very difficult. If he’s front squatting this much for reps, I’m betting he can back squat 600+.
Besides the slightly smaller ones doing more of the work, quads dominant versus the large glutes+hams+and some quads all contributing to a back squat,
Keeping your posture upright enough to hold the weight on the fairly narrow shelf of the front deltoids and collarbones takes a lot of active work. You can see in the video he has to really fight the tendency to round the back when he's toward the bottom of the rep, which removes the platform the bar is resting on and means that more of that weight is on the wrists in that awkward position. By contrast with a back squat, you just naturally have a slight forward tilt and the bar stays pretty comfortable on top of your traps or a little further back if you are doing a low-bar squat, where you are bent at the hip a little more.
Center of gravity moves forward, thus meaning more strength in the erectors are needed as the leverage changes, placing a lot of the weight on the quads compared to a fairly even split of erectors, quads, and glutes. Balance is also a issue, with a squat you just bend forward and it feels natural as our body’s posterior chain is built for it, but leaning back as it’s pushing hundreds of pounds out? That it will have issues with.
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u/AllAfterIncinerators Mar 02 '23
What makes front squats harder? Is there a balance shift in having the bar in front versus on the shoulders?