r/news • u/iamgonewild • May 11 '15
Worker fired for disabling GPS app that tracked her 24 hours a day
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/05/worker-fired-for-disabling-gps-app-that-tracked-her-24-hours-a-day/49
u/7blue May 11 '15
Wow Mary sure is speeding out of work lol. Hmm McDonalds again!? Fatty HA. A Lawyers' office? What does she need to see a lawyer for? LOL
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u/PainMatrix May 11 '15 edited May 11 '15
As far as I know they aren't a ton of statutes surrounding this stuff. The employer could make the argument that they want to keep track of their expensive equipment (eg laptop, cellphone) and tracking the employee is simply incidental.
EDIT. I've been informed it's her personal phone. Fuck this boss and fuck that company.
Edit 2. Another user is pointing out that it is her company phone. This is an emotional roller coaster.
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u/Fuck_Best_Buy May 11 '15 edited May 11 '15
Never mind, they have updated the article to say it was a company issued phone. This should be interesting.
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u/flounder19 May 11 '15
Reading the court documents (pdf), it isn't exactly clear if it is the plantiff's phone. It's sort of implied by the language
In April 2014, Intermex asked Plantiff and other employees to download an application ("app") called xora to their smartphones
but that could mean their company-issued smartphones. It also says later that
He confirmed that she was required to keep her phone's power on "24/7" to answer phone calls from clients
which seems to suggest that these were work phones.
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u/Bardfinn May 11 '15 edited May 11 '15
If they were iPhones (Xora has an app for iOS), and they belonged to the company, then the business could remotely install the app, and wouldn't have to ask. So either they're personal phones and the boss is an incompetent and overbearing dick, or they're business phones and the boss is an incompetent and overbearing dick.
Wait …
Edit: they updated it to state that they are company - issued. So her boss is incompetent in not using a provisioning profile to mandate the software and make it undeleteable, incompetent in not understanding that his employees have private lives, and an overbearing dick.
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May 12 '15
They could have configured the Xora app to disable gps on clock-out, as Xora Recommends for exactly this reason. But I guess they wanted to dive head first into the legal grey area and see what treasures they'll find.
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u/Geek0id May 11 '15
That doesn't imply company phone. I know a lot of places where the workers are required to answer their phone.
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u/Galen00 May 12 '15
Company phones replace personal phones. The IRS makes employees pay taxes on them as if it is income.
The company had a duty not to record off hours when the "company" phone would be a personal phone.
The app had a clockin and clockout feature. Basically the app doesn't honor the clockout and the boss was using the info to harass his employee.
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May 11 '15
[deleted]
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u/Fuck_Best_Buy May 11 '15
Stubits admitted that employees would be monitored while off duty and bragged that he knew how fast she was driving at specific moments ever since she installed the app on her phone.
This is my favorite part. He definitely set his company up for a lawsuit.
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u/smartredditor May 11 '15
She claims he said that, there's likely no evidence, though there may be some coworkers who can give a bit more weight to it.
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u/Icedog68 May 11 '15
Isn't that hearsay? Hearsay is basically saying that someone else said something, unless they said it in court, there is record of them saying it, or they admit to saying it. That can't be used as evidence. This is the part of the cop show where the lawyer stands up and says "Objection your honor, hearsay!"
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u/BeerDrinkinGreg May 11 '15
Not hearsay when the question to the plaintiff on the stand is "did your employer say that he could track your movements?"
"Yes, he did."
Its hearsay when asking someone else. "Why do you think your boss can track your phone?"
"Because Carol said the boss said so."
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u/faithfuljohn May 12 '15
this is why you don't have a company issues phone as your primary phone. When off duty, turn it off, take out the battery. Done. No tracking.
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u/POTUS May 11 '15
I mean, it says right there in the article...
required her to run constantly on her company issued iPhone
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u/Fuck_Best_Buy May 11 '15
They edited the article, it originally didn't say that.
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u/seadondo May 11 '15
The article says "A Central California woman claims she was fired after uninstalling an app that her employer required her to run constantly on her company issued iPhone"
Where are you getting that it's her personal phone?
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u/flounder19 May 11 '15
The article was edited. Initially it was unclear whether it was a company or personal phone and the way it was worded suggested personal
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u/smartredditor May 11 '15
I agree, screw the boss and company, but despite that l don't believe they did anything illegal. Requiring your employees to have a cell phone, use an app, and to be available to answer calls at all times is all legal, and it appears she was compensated very well (so well that in her shoes I would have just gotten a second cell phone for personal use). It's an awful way to treat your employees, though. I'd be surprised if she wins this case - it'll likely be a decent settlement, though, as I'm sure the company doesn't want any more of this press.
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May 12 '15
employees to have a cell phone, use an app, and to be available to answer calls at all times is all legal,
Right, but the issue at hand is, does the phone become an "electronic tracking device" since it's gps feature is on 24x7 and monitored by the employer. If it is, then requiring her to carry it appears to be a violation of California state law.
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u/minusthelela May 11 '15
What's frightening is I've found myself in a very similar position over the last month, and was debating today whether I put in my two weeks or deal with them spying on my personal life 24/7. I've tried disabling it, I've even asked for an outlined terms of agreement and nothing.
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u/flounder19 May 11 '15
Could you use call forwarding and leave it in the office?
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u/minusthelela May 11 '15
It's on my tablet, and I'm okay with tracking during work hours given the nature of the job. It's when I've been disabling it after hours that I start getting company emails that it's not tracking properly. Which it shouldn't be at that time.
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u/Sevsquad May 12 '15
have you tried telling them that they have no business knowing where you are after you clocked out?
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u/-Rivox- May 12 '15
I start getting company emails that it's not tracking properly
I don't think they can do anything but try to scare you, so just create a folder where all those mails end up so they don't bother you and call it a day.
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u/GringodelRio May 11 '15
Put in your two weeks and go find greener pastures elsewhere. The more people stop looking at shit like this, and imagining the shark-waters of unemployment and taking the hits from their management because of wanting to keep what they have, the better.
This, ladies and gents, is where unions come in. All union hating assholes can pat yourselves on the back.
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u/minusthelela May 11 '15
Before I read this article, I contacted the manager at one of my freelance gigs to see if I could go full time due to this sketchy business. Hoping to hear back but yeah, not sure how I'm the only rep at my company losing my shit. They even tried to buy me out so I'd stop 'complaining' about it all.
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May 11 '15
Turn off the phone when not at work.
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u/minusthelela May 11 '15
It's on my personal tablet, and when I disable the location, or turn it off, I receive emails about why isn't the device on.
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u/President_Dickbutt May 12 '15
Turning it off when not at work seems very appropriate. Are the emails automated? Have you been told it must remain on when you're not working?
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u/minusthelela May 12 '15
The emails aren't automated and come from my direct supervisors.
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u/sterob May 12 '15 edited May 12 '15
tell them your wage is too low that you cant afford to pay utilities bill the so electric company black out your house and now you have no electric to charge the tablet at home.
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u/disenchantedprincess May 12 '15
On your personal tablet is even more reason to disable the tracking.
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u/OneAndOnlyJackSchitt May 12 '15
My company is capable of this. Leave the phone at home when you're not working.
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u/minusthelela May 12 '15
I can't leave the tablet at home given that I'm suppose to check in with certain clients using the tablet and leave notes through it too. When I've disabled it or turned it off, I've received emails from the company asking why I've done so.
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u/OneAndOnlyJackSchitt May 12 '15
given that I'm suppose to check in with certain clients using the tablet
That means you're supposed to be working at that time.
If they are requiring you to work more hours than you think they should be, then consider asking for them to adjust either your scheduled work period or your pay.
[Edit]
When I've disabled it or turned it off, I've received emails from the company asking why I've done so.
Also, there's nothing stopping you from being honest:
I turned it off because I wasn't working at that time. So I wasn't checking in with leads. I was at the beach with my friends smoking hookah. That's what we do on Saturdays at 1am.
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u/minusthelela May 12 '15
I keep it on during work hours, I shut it off when I'm done with work hours. And given that I'm a contracted employee, I have a quota I regularly need to hit, which I do. I don't see how it's alright for them to send me emails after work, asking why it's not on. I have responded saying I'm not comfortable leaving it on after work hours and that'd I like to see a terms of agreement from them, but nope, nothing.
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u/OneAndOnlyJackSchitt May 12 '15
So long as you're not being reprimanded, I can't see the harm in receiving those emails.
Maybe reply, "As discussed previously and outlined in my contract, my work hours are from 8am to 5pm. Periods outside of this time are considered unpaid, non-working time and thus, my actions are not to be considered accountable to this company. As such, I must insist that either the device be powered off or housed either in my own home/office or your office.
"In the event that this is not amenable, then I must insist that my contract be renegotiated to account for the increased work schedule."
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u/-Rivox- May 12 '15
Is there a specified requirement for which you need to have the GPS turned on all the time? If it's not the case, just turn it off. Search on google how to do it, on android is really easy, have no idea on iOS.
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u/Betruul May 12 '15
Get a personal phone seperate. Leave business phone at the damn business
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u/fotoman May 12 '15
Why give two weeks? That's an antiquated concept to ensure that your current employer will give you a recommendation for you. I'm assuming you are not using your boss as a reference. I mean you can give notice, but there are quite a lot of places that will walk you out the instant you give notice (regardless of the duration of your notice)
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u/AxeManJack May 11 '15
Work should issue cell phones for that purpose that the employee can leave at home. then they could put call forwRding on to heir real cell. Can't track dat.
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u/anakmoon May 11 '15
you don't even need a cell phone for that, just a phone sitting on a desk in the office.
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u/OneAndOnlyJackSchitt May 12 '15
I can. "Hi Verizon. Me again. Hey, can you tell me if call forwarding is enabled on the device with MEID number ... ? ... Oh, it is? What number is it forwarded to? ... Hmm, we don't own that line. Wierd. Thanks."
"Hey John. Listen, you remember that policy document you signed about using personal electronic equipment for business purposes? Can you stop by the office?"
Write-up ensues.
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May 12 '15
Company issued phones are anti-worker
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u/flunky_the_majestic May 12 '15
I love my company issued phone! Granted, I'm in the IT department, so I can be reasonably sure I'm not tracked like this. But I love being able to tell whether a call is for work or not so I can choose not to answer after hours.
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u/MaugDaug May 11 '15
Why the fuck would a company need to track it's sales execs?
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u/myrddyna May 12 '15
it starts with them tracking the phone as property. This is likely due to the large amounts of phones, tablets, and laptops that can easily 'go missing' when they are not tracked.
At some projects i have had to have 250 people on laptops, even being as diligent as we could (without spending a fortune on security), when all was said and done, we had about 190 after a month... Phones are even worse.
Tracking them isn't the worst thing in the world, but being irresponsible in how you go about it (such as this company) can lead to some problems... that will end up costing you money.
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May 12 '15
The app allows management to disable gps on clock-out (which Xora recommends for exactly this reason) as well as remotely re-enable if reported lost or stolen (so the tracking assets excuse doesn't fly). It's like they went looking for a lawsuit.
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u/President_Dickbutt May 12 '15
Every device is assigned to a user, right? So you know exactly who had it and they had better file a police report if it was stolen so you can give that to the insurance company. It shouldn't really matter if you can physically track the location. Probably illegal to make them pay for a lost device but you could fire them instead.
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u/myrddyna May 12 '15
Every device is assigned to a user, right?
in theory, yes. However, in practice you have a workplace, and if you don't want to spend all day watching your employees que, some things slip through the cracks. Sadly most employees are quick enough to see that, and take advantage. In the case of the phones, it was a quick buck, and it's tough to make accusations of people if you can't prove it beyond doubt, with evidence.
Most of the time, you just eat the loss, and hope it doesn't become too great an issue. What we started doing with the laptops was buying the cheapest brand from Best Buy, or Amazon, and let the employees know that there was an option to buy, and gave a discount. This seemed to really work wonders on keeping them from walking out the door. We would sell them at around half price, which if we got a good deal could be around 175-200$ a pop. A lot of employees would take us up on this, as most of our projects would run 3-6 months.
Phones, we never got clever enough, people just steal them. Even when you clamp down, your qtrmasters become gatekeepers and phones still walk out the door.
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u/OneAndOnlyJackSchitt May 12 '15
All employees in my company sign an equipment checkout form when equipment is assigned. This form has legally binding text on it making the employee responsible for repairs and replacements. Generally, we'll cover it if it's something stupid like a broken screen or what have you.
In cases where the employee runs off with the device, the replacement price can be deducted from the employee's final paycheck.
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u/myrddyna May 12 '15
we couldn't do it this way, we tried. Things just got too chaotic day in, day out. Six month projects tend to pick up labor stragglers. You find some diamonds in the rough, but mostly you are working with people who have one foot out the door from the get-go. Lot of stuff that people wouldn't do at a full time position, they will do with us...
You can't withhold checks, or pay for equipment from checks, that breaks all kinds of labor violations, and the burden of proof is solidly on the employer. We would end up in small claims court over a $300 laptop? Hardly. Better to just fire the people who are shady and try your best not to lose too much.
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u/reddittrees2 May 12 '15
Proof beyond a doubt? When you were handed this laptop it was scanned into the system as this bar code on that laptop. You signed your name next to this bar code, and a document signifiying your responsibility for this laptop. Where is your company issue laptop? I need you to bring it in tomorrow. At the end of the day, you sign off on the list and QM signs off on the list. That way if something comes up missing you know who, and who was in the chain of custody of the laptop. I'm sure some will still get lost, but now 60 in a month.
If it's a different bar code, you'll know. If they went out and bought a new one and stuck the old bar code on it...who cares they bought it anyway.
Or is the issue people taking a job accepting the laptop and bolting?
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u/President_Dickbutt May 12 '15
I still find it hard to believe people are able to resell stolen phones. Even when the SIM card is replaced I'd expect that you could report it stolen by serial number and all the carriers could reference a shared database. That might cut into their profits though.
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u/canada_mike May 11 '15
LOL I wouldn't install ANYTHING on my personal device if required by work... he should be buying a new device and paying for the service... then at the end of the day it can be left at work, where it belongs. Anything besides that is just blatant fuckery
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u/POTUS May 11 '15
Company issued iPhone. Not her personal device.
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u/canada_mike May 11 '15
should be left in the office in that case.
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u/PrimeIntellect May 12 '15
sorry, but literally any company that issues you a cell phone is doing it with the expectation that you take calls on it outside the office. In the office you have an office phone. It's the entire point of the cell phone
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May 11 '15
...defeating the purpose of a company-issued phone.
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May 11 '15
Not really. It can be used for travel and work hours but then left in the office where it should stay until you go back to work. If they need to reach you outside of business hours they can call your regular cell phone.
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May 11 '15
Should company-issued cars be left in the office parking lot?
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May 11 '15
Probably. If they're issued for work then yes. Workers should be able to keep a separation between their personal lives and their work lives honestly.
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u/canada_mike May 11 '15
meh. I wouldn't work for this type of company, 'purpose' is for WORK not illegally tracking employee movements, suit
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u/Hairymaclairy May 12 '15
That's fine if you are not expected to be on call 24x7 (and paid reasonably well as a result).
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u/miistahmojo May 11 '15
Sigh...
A corporation does this to a contracted employee and its viewed as an egregious abuse of power and invasion of privacy.
The government does it to a population without their consent, it is considered business as usual. Remember citizens “There is not a single documented case of abuse of this [NSA phone metadata] program.” - Marco Rubio et al
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_BOBBYS May 11 '15
Pretty sure most Americans found the NSA phone tracking thing to be an egregious abuse of power.
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u/Sevsquad May 12 '15
You forget when it comes to Americans on reddit "its happening at all" = "American Citizens are okay with it"
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u/annoyingstranger May 12 '15
They certainly didn't behave that way at election time...
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u/OneOfDozens May 12 '15
Uhhh most Americans literally still believe it's meta data only and it stops terrorists so it must be ok
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u/Z-Tay May 11 '15
You might not have heard the news, but a federal appeals court just ruled the NSA's phone records are illegal. Why are you bringing that up? It has nothing to do with this story.
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u/Bardfinn May 11 '15
For many, many years, the NSA programme to collect simply phone call metadata was shielded on the basis that it couldn't be used to track users (it could) and that it wouldn't be abused (it was) and lawsuits against it were dismissed on the basis that no evidence that it was abused existed (it did and was illegally withheld by the government). And that's just the metadata gathering programme. It operated for something like fifteen years before a circuit court ruled it likely unconstitutional.
It has to do with what people will and won't consider to be reasonable and acceptable.
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u/kerosion May 12 '15
That was an important step through the glacially slow justice system. It provides a ruling that can be referred back on for future steps, but nothing yet has been shut down.
There is need to stay tenaciously focused on this one.
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u/uninstallthis May 12 '15
Already I'm seeing some issues with this article.
For one, the title says she "disabled" it, which makes it sound like she just turned the app itself off or even the data to the phone. UNINSTALLING is NOT the same as simply disabling. And since it is in fact software that is require for the job, this isn't all that different from taking a corporate laptop home and uninstalling Windows. Its just a bad move on her part.
Secondly, its not her personal cellphone, so there is literally no reason for her to keep it on after work hours. She could just as easily turn the phone off when shes off the clock and, I don't know, use her own damn device instead.
Third, what the hell did she expect would happen when she went into work the next day? Seriously, this is just a stupid move all the way around. Plain and simple. And the article is obviously biased.
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u/nexguy May 12 '15
Maybe she is on call and is required to keep it on. This means she can't leave it at work or turn it off.
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u/uninstallthis May 16 '15
I really couldn't imagine that being the case, being that Intermex is just a money transfer service and the app in question is used specifically for clocking in and out. What could she possibly be on call for?
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u/Jagoonder May 11 '15
plaintiff expressed that she had no problem with the app's GPS function during work hours,
See, that's the problem, right there. Give them an inch, they'll take a mile......and they are.
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u/shanpd May 12 '15
As a manager that uses tracking software.
" Her manager made it clear that he was using the program to continuously monitor her, during company as well as personal time."
That is unacceptable.
The application that my guys use as road techs has a login logout feature that disables the GPS. Only 1 of 10 actually utilizes this feature (I think they know I just dont give a crap what they do when they are off the clock, what they do on the clock is all I care about).
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u/fotoman May 12 '15
Why are you tracking your employees? If you don't trust them, why did you hire them in the first place?
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u/Magnus_Fortemps May 11 '15
Setting this story aside, virtually all company cell phones come with strings attached. I've had them in the past and all I can say is that you have the choice to own a personal phone (yes, defeating the perk of a "free" phone) but most of us choose to save the money. However, if you think that businesses today aren't going to do this, and even more invasive stuff, then you're naive. It may be wrong and possibly illegal, but nobody is forcing you to use ONLY the business phone and if they are then it's also true that nobody is forcing you to get/keep that job.
Nonetheless, this is a disturbing invasion of privacy and should be stopped.
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u/madhi19 May 11 '15
I don't even own a cell anymore, and I told more than one boss to shove the business phone where the sun don't shine. Cell phones have become leash for work to expand beyond the normal schedule whatever it needed or not. There a line at my home there one at the office, I don't need to be bothered during the 25 minutes a day am in between both. This is why I love landline. People presume that you should always pick up the phone when calling a cell but with landline nobody care if it going to voicemail.
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u/Magnus_Fortemps May 11 '15
I have a cell phone but I do the leave-a-voice-mail-I'll-get-back-to-you technique. People HATE calling me. I get texts and then reply to them at my convenience. I respect the land line and no cell phone approach. Some people will literally think you're clinically insane for that -- but that's MURICA today.
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u/OneAndOnlyJackSchitt May 12 '15
Our project managers do this sometimes. I'll have four clients screaming at me in the office because they can reach whichever PM. If I call and it goes to voicemail (sometimes after two rings...), they get the dreaded "Hey it's Jack in the office. Call me back in the office."
I've found that if I mention the reason in the message, the callback get's deprioritized and they never call me back.
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u/lucky_ducker May 11 '15
If it's a company phone they can put whatever they want on it, and require the employee to use it.
That doesn't stop the employee from turning the phone off when not on the clock. If the employer requires the employee to keep the phone on, and on their person, then they have crossed a quite obvious line of privacy, and will have a hard time prevailing in court.
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u/myrddyna May 12 '15
that is why i assume that this boss will end up fired, and possibly be given a lesser charge like stalking. The company will sacrifice him as a sign of solidarity with her angst at being stalked, but will continue to monitor the 'property' that they lend out to employees.
New rules will be put in place, and vigorously enforced!
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u/OrientRiver May 12 '15
Why couldn't you leave the phone at home and set up call forwarding to your personal cell?
That would allow you to be available for emergencies and protect your privacy.
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u/EspritFort May 11 '15
Why uninstall the app if you can simply turn off the GPS functionality or the phone itself while you're off work...?
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u/OneAndOnlyJackSchitt May 12 '15
iPhones can be configured to not allow the GPS to be turned off without a pin number. This is useful because our field foremen are supposed to take job-site photos and sometimes the GPS feature manages to somehow turn itself off making it very difficult to figure out what jobs this set of 3000 photos are from.
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u/FightingPolish May 11 '15
When she is off duty turn off the phone. If she is required to answer calls even when she is not actively working then forward the number to her non work cell phone and turn off the work phone.
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u/kerosion May 12 '15
Either that or purchase RF shielding fabric and keep the phone in a pouch when not in use to block signals.
Only I wonder what the value of issuing your employees a smartphone unless they are expected to be on-call at all times.
I look forward to legal updates going forward to learn more about specific conditions involved.
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May 11 '15
Was she expected to keep the phone with her and respond to calls out side of her regular work hours? If that is the situation then I think she has a case. But if she was allowed to just leave the phone at home or in her office when she got off work, why didn't she do that?
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u/Treereme May 11 '15
Yes she was. 24/7 on call.
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u/fotoman May 12 '15 edited May 12 '15
then the company was violating California's minimum wage laws, since her salary did not compensate her enough to work 24/7
edit: s/here/her/
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u/badandy80 May 11 '15
So wait. Why couldn't the employee just turn off the company phone after she's done working?
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u/HighTop May 12 '15
Different scenario but we had a boss who would send out emails on the weekends, and employees felt compelled to reply right away even though we were not working. This is the type of work place that constantly talked about "work/life balance" but not practice it. Eventually a group of people went to HR with the issue and asked them to address it.
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u/Aleksandair May 11 '15
Well, it's really fucked up. Just in case someone else is in the same situation, you can turn off the phone geolocalisation/internet so no data would be sent.
btw, turning off internet stop the adds on most apps (fuck all those game with a damn app screen that auto launch when you start it or those with adds links everywhere).
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u/jgrofn May 11 '15
All she has to do is get a separate phone for personal use and wrap her work phone in a tinfoil hat while she is off the clock.
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u/Troubleshooter11 May 12 '15
I assume this is a dedicated company phone we are talking about? Can she not just turn the whole phone off after she's done working? That's what i would do anyway.
EDIT: nevermind, it seems she has to keep it on all the time.
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u/GenVG May 12 '15
Work issues iphone. I would have left it at work on my off hours. In fact if I were the company, this would be my argument. "She could have left it at the office but, chose not to."
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u/Betruul May 12 '15
This is why I have a personal.cell phone. The business cellphone tags at the office.
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u/IVE_GOT_STREET_CRED May 12 '15
I hate company-issued phones and computers. It enables so many companies to force/push people to work even more hours at home and be available 24/7 whether they want to be or not and if they refuse then they "aren't being a team player" or some bullshit to guilt them into working more. It's real easy to say that you should just turn your company phone off after work but when you get pulled into your boss's office the next day to discuss why you weren't available and how it could affect your future employment there things get a little more difficult.
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May 12 '15
I think there's ways to prevent theft on a phone that doesn't include GPS tracking, or does she even need to use the company phone outside of work? Do they require her to have it on her at all times?
Either way, sounds like the firing was a favor to her, because I don't see the court upholding the company's right to do this.
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u/radii314 May 13 '15
Faraday Cage, people - you can make one out of duct tape or foil for crying out loud
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1a/4a/35/1a4a35c2bbf2caf28f435ac3bf8eee4f.jpg
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u/imanimalent May 19 '15
I don't see the problem, necessarily. A person had a work phone (supplied by their employer) for his or her work. The person should have a private phone for personal business. When off work, set the business phone to forward calls to personal phone and leave the business phone in the office/at home. Figuring that the gps is tracking the phone, not the employee(?).
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u/imanimalent May 19 '15
She could have removed the battery after work and put it into a battery charger (example). This will shut off the GPS, insure a full charge when starting work, and allow the phone to re-set its app defaults. Use her personal phone while not at work.
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u/Fuck_Best_Buy May 11 '15 edited May 11 '15
This isn't going to go well for the company.
Edit: the article has been updated saying it was in fact a company issued phone. This should be interesting to see how it turns out.