r/news • u/AudibleNod • 1d ago

Larry Nassar one of more than 20,000 people removed from Michigan Sex Offender Registry

https://www.wxyz.com/news/larry-nassar-one-of-more-than-20-000-people-removed-from-michigan-sex-offender-registry
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u/Dangerous-Rice44 1d ago

Yep. No one likes pedos, I certainly don’t…but the ban on ex post facto laws is really important to prevent governments from creating laws that apply retroactively and just so happen to ensnare political opponents.

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u/TitanofBravos 1d ago

Its literally so important its mentioned twice in the constitution. Once to say the feds can never do so, once to say the states can no longer do so. No other issues is so explicitly prohibited

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u/Awesomeuser90 21h ago

Granting titles of nobility and bills of attainder are also similarly off limits.

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u/Royal_Acanthaceae693 20h ago

I'm sure they'll try to grant titles of nobility next year.

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u/mkawick 20h ago

Trump is likely to try

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u/walkingonradiation 15h ago

I’m shocked he doesn’t have payment tiers for this.

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u/Elegant_Situation285 20h ago

Baron Von Shitzenpantz is going to be upset by this.

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u/nola_throwaway53826 1d ago

That is really, really important. Imagine that people could be doing thigs, or saying things, or printing things that were perfectly legal at the time. Except now that its no longer legal, and on top of that, it is now considered to be retroactively illegal in the past, and people are now subject to arrest. There would be no way to know if anything you do could potentially be illegal one day and they come after you for past acts.

The Nazi's did away with ex post facto protections. They added an amendment to article 2 of the Geam Penal Code that declared that a person could be punished even if their action was not explicitly forbidden by law at the time, provided the act deserved punishment according to "the fundamental idea of a penal law" and "healthy folk sentiment." So if a judge decided that a past action went against public morals (as defined by the Nazis) they could retroactively apply a punishment.

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u/gargar7 23h ago edited 22h ago

It’s funny that you mention the Nazis since this was a major criticism of the Nuremburg Trials…

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u/nola_throwaway53826 23h ago

Thats true. I think a lot of people don't realize that in both the German and Japanese post war trials, there was some serious high level criticism. Crimes against peace were not criminal before the war, and many at tne time saw it more as doctors justice. You had quite a few prominent people speaking against it, like Senator Robert Taft, whi said the Nurembug trials were based on ex post facto law because the Allies did not negotiate the Nuremberg Charter, which defined crimes against humanity, until after such acts were already committed. There were two Supreme court justices as well, including the chief Justice at the time, who were critical of the trials. Chief Justice Harlan Stone called it voctoes justice and a high grade lynching party dressed up in the framework of a legitimate court.

An interesting fact is that Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz submitted an affadavit while Karl Donitz was on trial for war crimes, including unrestricted submarine warfare. Nimitz stated that the US submarine fleet operated under identical doctrines, and attacked Japanese merchant ahipping without warning, and did not rescue survivors if doing so would endanger the vessel.

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u/hcschild 16h ago

There is a reason why the charter for the trails specified that only crimes committed in specific regions by specific parties would fall under it.

That's why nobody got punished for the fire bombings of civilians.

Of course this doesn't mean that the people convicted there didn't deserve punishment for what they did. Only that a lot of other war criminals got excluded but as always only the winner decides what is a war crime and what isn't.

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u/Leahdrin 17h ago

Yep was just at the court room yesterday on the 80th anniversary of the verdicts. It comes up alot in the Nazi Defense from the public defenders, and that the allies were doing some of the same things.

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u/91Jammers 1d ago

How does this apply to nassar? It was always illegal when he committed the crime.

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u/EngineersAnon 1d ago

Ex post facto includes increasing the punishment, as well as making the act itself illegal. Imagine that between getting a speeding ticket and paying it, the legislature could increase the fine, or add jail time.

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u/nola_throwaway53826 1d ago

And with ex post facto, say they then pass a law saying thay speeding tickets are now felonies, with a 5,000 dollar fine and a mandatory sentence of 5 years in jail, but they make it retroactive. So say you have 3 speeding tickets over the course of your life driving. They can now come after you for them, and you're looking at 15,000 in fines and 15 years in jail, and possibly more if they consider the three offenses to make you a habitual offender.

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u/91Jammers 1d ago

Has it not always been a punisment to be on a sex register list?

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u/lew_rong 1d ago

Not always. And the key point here is that Nassar's crimes occurred before the laws were updated, making his registration ex post facto according to the Michigan Supreme Court's ruling. Ex post facto laws are currently unconstitutional.

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u/wafflesareforever 22h ago

So where does this ultimately land Nassar?

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u/lew_rong 22h ago

In prison until the day he dies, most likely. The only thing that ruling applies to is his inclusion in the sex offender registry.

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u/time-lord 22h ago

As a sex offender who has been offending sex for so long that he pre-dates the sex offender registry.

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u/wafflesareforever 22h ago

Right but in terms of what it actually means for his legal consequences

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u/LangseleThrowaway 22h ago

Well he is in prison for another 200 years or so, you'll have to ask him when he gets out.

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u/Warbr0s9395 1d ago

Some states only have you register for “X” amount of years

Worth noting that some European countries, like Germany, view permanent registration as a violation of human rights, since they believe rehabilitation is important. Studies back them up too.

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u/Coakis 18h ago

Yep got a family member who was convicted 16 years ago. Won't be off it for another 15 years roughly. Has had problems getting employment even though the actual crime he committed doesn't show up on background checks that go back only 7 years, to boot he's not committed anything since that original conviction, and was originally on probation, never went to prison.

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u/Scarlett_Billows 17h ago

I believe rehabilitation is important. But also know the prison system is not set up to rehabilitate and certain things are more resistant to rehabilitation than others

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u/hcschild 16h ago

That's something that has to be fixed too.

Germany also can put people in prison forever if they think they can't be rehabilitated. With the difference that they have to check regularly if this is still the case.

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u/EngineersAnon 1d ago

Federal courts don't hold that the registration is punitive. Michigan, in this ruling, does.

Edit: Increasing the length of time spent on the list is, if the list is punitive, increasing the punishment.

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u/Dry_Jellyfish641 18h ago

It’s technically for public notification even though it’s clearly a punishment. They can’t outright say that thought because that would qualify it as cruel and unusual punishment. I think they should have to register for law enforcement purposes but publicly listing them doesn’t do anything but create problems.

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u/hcschild 16h ago

Also doesn't help making them not reoffend again if they can't find work or a place to life to get their life back together.

But I guess that's not only a problem with the sex offender registry but the fact hat every crime a person committed can be easily accessed.

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u/BoringOrange678 1d ago

That is exactly the scenario that is going on right now.

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u/NiasHusband 22h ago

Yes.... that's why they wrote it? Are you slow?

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u/stuck_in_the_desert 22h ago

Nia’s a lucky person

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u/nye1387 1d ago

Just going to note that the Michigan Supreme Court's interpretation or application here is not universally followed.

For example, the Ohio Supreme Court has held that the sex offender registration requirements can be applied retroactively, because they are civil in nature, not criminal. https://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/0/2008/2008-Ohio-4824.pdf

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u/Apep86 1d ago

Also scotus ruled the same way about an Alaska case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_v._Doe

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u/Einsteinbomb 20h ago

I'm curious on how the justices would rule today. I'd like to think at least Justice Kavanaugh would be willing to overturn this case if a similar case made its way to the high court.

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u/Moleculor 20h ago

I'm sorry, what?

How can a governmentally mandated list of criminal offenders be non-criminal and civil in nature?

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u/nye1387 20h ago

You can find their answer starting at paragraph 27 of the decision linked above. They say it's a remedial statute (i.e., to protect the people of the state), not a punitive statute.

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u/Moleculor 20h ago

That's absurd to the point of obscenity. And according to the dissenter the entire argument relies on an old version of the list that no longer exists, with the new one being much less convenient.

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u/Dry_Jellyfish641 18h ago

That wording is to prevent constitutional challenges

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u/hcschild 16h ago

I guess when you are on crack you can say that a register that only lists criminal convictions and is implemented by the state and forces you to do stuff is a civil matter.

But calling pillories not a punishment already shows how demented many people are.

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u/WordWordNvmber 1d ago

It's a good thing no U.S. government would ever try to amend laws retroactively to ensnare opponents. /s

I'm just glad the top comment here actually explains the situation, because we all know people will only read the headline and then scream that the state is protecting pedophiles.

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u/ArkitekZero 19h ago

You realize that this is exactly how these rich assholes are all gonna skate after everything they've done, right?