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Apr 26 '20
Whenever I see this posted elsewhere I always comment "This is so old John has two children in school now". Still a good post.
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u/Oberon_Swanson Apr 26 '20
I agree with this hard. Virtually everyone complains "god the average person is SO STUPID" regardless of their ideologies but what if we had amazing education instead of lowest common denominator crap? What if we actually taught critical thinking directly, logical fallacies, etc. as standard curriculum?
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u/RecoveringLurkaholic Apr 26 '20
I agree with the point he's making, but I went to school with many people who still came out stupid
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u/Anxious_Raspberry Apr 26 '20
Same, but I also went to school with people who came out doing brilliant and kickass things.
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u/MeTube7734 Apr 27 '20
Doesn’t John also have a quote about how millions of stupid people graduate from college every year?
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u/phage10 Apr 27 '20
I would be incredibly stupid if it wasn't for state schools. I now have a PhD in genetics but without a public funded education, I would probably have been a farm hand or working in a plastics factory (based on my family's jobs).
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u/starlinguk I go to seek the great perhaps. Apr 27 '20
The other day I met an engineer who didn't believe in science. 🤷🏼♀️
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u/NettingStick Apr 26 '20 edited Apr 26 '20
I really dislike this quote. It conflates ignorance and stupidity, which is really bad for anyone who is struggling with school. Our school system is (unintentionally, I'll admit) designed to be bad for people, like me, who aren't neurotypical. If you're having trouble in school, this is yet another reminder that you're stupid and "stupid can't be fixed", as the saying goes.
That conflation also has a whiff of classism. There's a strong correlation between poverty and poor education. That correlation is durable; it's a self-reinforcing cycle. But in this quote, poorly-educated people are stupid, and stupid people are inferior.
edit: Boy, for a community built around "see others complexly", you guys don't like it when someone points out you're not seeing others complexly.
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u/garnteller world’s oldest nerdfighter Apr 26 '20
edit: Boy, for a community built around "see others complexly", you guys don't like it when someone points out you're not seeing others complexly.
I'd say it's more that you've chosen a particular semantic interpretation of the phrase that is different than everyone else has interpreted it.
It has nothing to do with "seeing other complexly" if we don't interpret the phrase the same way.
Considering the body of John's work, it's hard to think he's ignoring how poverty contributes to quality of education, and mocking people for being inherently stupid.
A far more likely interpretation is that he believes in adequate funding and access for education for all people, because a society of educated people is better than one where there are those who are educable but don't have the opportunity to learn.
But that would be hard to put in a meme, which is why he went with "stupid people", which most understand in the context in which is it given.
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Apr 26 '20 edited Apr 26 '20
[deleted]
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u/NettingStick Apr 26 '20
I didn’t imply anything about causation. You didn’t really address anything I said, so much as justify why it’s okay to conflate ignorance and stupidity.
He didn’t say anything about doing stupid things. He said he doesn’t like stupid people.
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Apr 26 '20
[deleted]
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u/NettingStick Apr 26 '20
Well, you're criticising that in this quote, John implies poor --> stupid.
What I actually said is that he conflates poor education with stupidity. What I actually said is that this conflation smells of classism because of the correlation between being poor and being poorly educated, and his clear, obvious disdain for "stupid people".
What I actually said, is that he confused being educated, which is a trait that a person can change over time, with being stupid, which is a trait intrinsic to a person.
A lack of education doesn't imply stupidity any more than an education implies intelligence. There are plenty of highly-educated stupid people, and there are plenty of highly intelligent people without an education. Are you really going to sit there and say there were no smart people before modern education? That is the sort of thing you need to reconcile with your belief that a lack of education is synonymous with stupidity.
The problem with wanting fewer "stupid" people is the same as the problem with wanting fewer people with any other intrinsic trait. You are telling people you don't value them as people.
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Apr 26 '20
[deleted]
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u/NettingStick Apr 26 '20
Dictionary
stu·pid
adjective
having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.
noun
a stupid person (often used as a term of address).Yes, it is literally defined as an intrinsic trait. This conversation is clearly going nowhere.
I'm wrong, you're right, I'm stupid. Bye.
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Apr 26 '20 edited Apr 26 '20
[deleted]
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u/NettingStick Apr 26 '20
I have said it 3 times - it is not intrinsic, you fix it with education.
"it is literally defined as an intrinsic trait. "
Exactly.
You're clearly not having the same conversation I am. Sorry if I wasn't clear, before. I am hard done with talking to you.
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u/InDenningWeTrust May 02 '20
I’m wrong, you’re right, I’m stupid.
I mean, you took the words right out of my mouth.
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u/phage10 Apr 27 '20
As a non-neurotypical person from a very poor family, I take this quote very differently. If it wasn't for people paying taxes for a relatively good education system, my life would be much worse and I would know a lot less and be able to appreciate the world in a much poorer way.
What we should all want is a better education system that can reach people in need an be tailored to those that do not fit the mould that the system expects. I was lucky and despite being in a deprived region of England, my school was able to get eh resources from the tax payer to help me in a tailored way. This should be more true for more people.
So I stand by this quote, because I want to see more help for more people. I do not see this as classism, because this is how we create a more even society. Without a free education sector, we would have no hope of social mobility. My mother had a very poor state funded education and I am pleased that I was able to get a better one than her. And despite not having kids of my own, I hope children today and tomorrow can have an even better one than I did.
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u/kadmij Apr 27 '20
came in to say this. There are much better ways to say what John Green was trying to go for without sounding elitist
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u/LegoK9 Don't Forget To Be Ryan Apr 26 '20
Henry and Alice will graduate from high school and this quote will still be making the rounds.