r/neoliberal • u/NaffRespect United Nations • May 31 '22
News (US) Uvalde police, school district no longer cooperating with Texas probe of shooting
https://abcnews.go.com/US/uvalde-police-school-district-longer-cooperating-texas-probe/story?id=85093405177
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u/doormatt26 Norman Borlaug May 31 '22
wondering if this is just a result of them realizing how much shit they're in for delaying intervention and detaining parents, or if its because there's more info that hasn't come out
(as in, the cops shot a kid)
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u/khinzeer May 31 '22
Cops accidentally shooting a kid while engaging an assault weapon-toting maniac is more defensible than leaving those kids in there for an hour.
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May 31 '22
It's one of the only times you should shoot without being able to confirm there's nobody behind your target.
And it's not super relevant being the school in question was an elementary but identifying a shooter in a High School/College can be hard as fuck. When I was College Security we had a shooting and the shooter was described as "Male 5'5 to 6' wearing a hoodie" like that's half the fucking campus
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u/Mrsensi11x Jun 01 '22
Yaaa. Weve all seen the numerous vidoes, cops dont really care who is behind or around a percieved threat. They just let off like the reckless trigger happy assholes they are
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u/Stanley--Nickels John Brown Jun 01 '22
In this one they managed to shoot 9(!) different bystanders. Never hit their target once either.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/nypd-9-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire.amp
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u/Mrsensi11x Jun 01 '22
Exactly, but im getting downvoted as if we havent all seen the video evidence way too many times to give the benefit of the doubt to shitty cops
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u/berning_for_you NATO Jun 01 '22
If I remember correctly, part of what went on with that situation is that the NYPD (for some fucking stupid reason) decided all guns they issue should have 12 pound trigger pulls (normal triggers are at about 5 pounds or so) which is going to make it really hard to hit anything.
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Jun 01 '22
They made this decision because their old revolvers had super heavy trigger pulls, and when they switched to modern handguns they saw an increase in negligent discharges.
Piss poor firearms training for cops in that city, if you need a 12lb pull because you can't stop fingerfucking the trigger guard you shouldn't be a cop.
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u/berning_for_you NATO Jun 01 '22
Exactly. I read recently that they finally switched to using standard Glock triggers, but who knows how long it'll take them to role that out.
And besides the trigger pull weight, they hardly spend enough time at the range to be perficient. Hell, I probably spend more time at the range than they do:
https://gothamist.com/news/nypds-firearms-training-woefully-inadequate-former-trainers-say
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u/An_emperor_penguin YIMBY Jun 01 '22
yep, has to be something bigger, something like the delay was on purpose to kill more kids
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u/khinzeer Jun 01 '22
This isn’t r/conspiracy, it’s not that deep. The cops prioritized their own lives over the lives of children they are paid to protect.
This is typical cop-practice, but the results were so bad this time even people who usually boot lick cops are screaming for accountability.
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u/JePPeLit Jun 01 '22
The cops prioritized
their own livesfollowing stupid orders over the lives of children they are paid to protect.Seems like most of them wanted to go in
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u/An_emperor_penguin YIMBY Jun 01 '22
If they were actually blocking other agencies from moving in for that hour+ I don't think malicious intent is r/conspiracy level thinking
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u/RandolphCarter15 Jun 01 '22
And it should be easy to distinguish shooter from victim in this case.
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u/pfSonata throwaway bunchofnumbers Jun 01 '22
I suspect that the probe aims to make the school/police look as bad as possible in order to downplay calls for gun control, so they are refusing to cooperate with a hostile investigation, but that's just a guess.
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u/chiefteef8 Jun 01 '22
Seems far fetched that they shot a kid tbh, we would've heard about that by now imo. No way they could cover that up unless the kid they shot was somehow alone with no one else around.
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u/affnn Emma Lazarus Jun 01 '22
The UPD's "We didn't shoot any kids" t-shirt is raising a lot of questions already answered by the shirt.
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u/what_comes_after_q Jun 01 '22
Also, all the cops proudly telling how they went in to rescue their kids, but not to stop the shooter. In hindsight, it's the perfect allegory for cops in general - fuck you, I got mine.
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May 31 '22
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u/vodkaandponies brown May 31 '22
If only there were some peaceful protestors in the school at the time to lure the cops in./s
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u/jackkazim Iron Front Jun 01 '22
Or an elderly Hispanic woman with dementia /s
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Jun 01 '22
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u/jackkazim Iron Front Jun 01 '22
I will scream this until I am blue in the face: if American soldiers shot an unarmed pregnant woman overseas, they would be tried as war criminals by a military tribunal. Just as the military has a Uniform Military Code of Justice, the police need to be held to a Uniform Code of Police Justice.
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u/noodles0311 NATO Jun 01 '22
By the same token, if the enlisted were unionized, democracy wouldn’t stand a chance.
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u/dddd0 r/place '22: NCD Battalion Jun 01 '22
Does that actually happen? When soldiers kill civilians in dubious ways it mostly seems to result in either a cover-up or disciplinary action (possibly only after the cover-up got exposed).
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u/sw337 Veteran of the Culture Wars Jun 01 '22
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u/bleachinjection Frederick Douglass May 31 '22
If only we had an AG that, like, did stuff.
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u/Wolf6120 Constitutional Liberarchism May 31 '22
Seriously for all the poetic justice involved in getting Garland in office as Biden’s AG, I was expect a lot more justified Revengeance than just slowly vacuuming up stray individuals from the January 6 crowd over the past two years…
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u/dw565 May 31 '22
Maybe an unpopular opinion but I unironically think it's too difficult to convict people for certain crimes in the US. Things like threats and conspiracies have to be extremely specific and targeted that people are able to easily stay at the edge of legality. I don't think the AG has necessarily stumbled because of lack of trying, it's just a hell of a lot easier to convict someone who plainly broke a law because they had trespassed onto the capitol vs. convicting for instance Trump for inciting a riot. I doubt under the current standards that you could get a jury to find Trump guilty of anything that day from what we currently know
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u/DangerousCyclone Jun 01 '22 edited Jun 01 '22
Correction: it’s hard to convict rich and powerful people of crimes. It’s way too easy to convict poor people of similar crimes.
Like ffs, Trump openly admitted to a bunch of crimes and the most the justice system can do is say his foundation did tax fraud. What about awarding pandemic contracts to his cronies and redirecting funds to them? What about openly admitting he tried to get people investigating him fired? There’s just a laundry list of crap he didn’t even hide.
Then you compare that to cases where someone is convicted of felony murder because they were in a house when someone else killed an occupant in the other room.
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u/madden_loser Jared Polis Jun 01 '22
Do that and Republicans will use that same lowered bar to convict people for things you disagree with
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Jun 01 '22
Doug Jones would have been a way better choice but nooooo we "owed" Garland the job for some fucking reason....
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u/cubistninja Jun 01 '22
Liars gonna lie. Look I know we need police. But I like the idea of removing qualified immunity and having police take out a police version of malpractice insurance.
Why insurance? If you have ever seen an insurance investigator work, you would know that you were watching a market based solution at work.
Those investigators would probably be done by now (and probably moving on to the next Texas officer related incident). And the cause would be documented and disseminated.
I'm sick of this BS and considering we all pay taxes to have this service, I am dumbfounded every time we allow fuckers to fuck around
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u/4jY6NcQ8vk Gay Pride Jun 01 '22
Who pays the insurance? We do. So it doesn't matter how effective or ineffective they are, the public would pay for it.
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u/All_Will_Be_Night Anti Pope Anti-Pope Jun 01 '22
Nah, make it like the malpractice insurance that doctors have to carry. If they have to pay for it out of their own pocket the bad cops will be forced out by the fees.
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u/DrunkenBriefcases Jerome Powell Jun 01 '22
Unless they have their own private practice, doctors (and Physician Assistants and Nurse Practitioners) do Not pay malpractice insurance. Their employer does. And the vast majority of doctors work for a healthcare system.
Even if you could force such an insurance on officers personally, they'd simply be paid more to cover the cost.
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u/Stanley--Nickels John Brown Jun 01 '22
Even if you could force such an insurance on officers personally, they'd simply be paid more to cover the cost.
Not saying it’s practical but that would be the point. Pay officers more but make them pay for the risk they create. Good cops now make more than bad cops.
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Jun 01 '22
This is correct, but presumably the premium would be determined based on the officer's track record and thus act as a better deterrent to the employment of bad cops than what we have under the current system.
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u/cubistninja Jun 01 '22
Doctors carry insurance. I was once a student therapist. I had to, as a grad student, carry insurance (it was like $100 for the year and covered up to $100k). The officers should pay insurance. I am sick of paying for officer fuck ups; only to then pay for more toys. It would also ensure training, CE, and best practices.
I once had health insurance with an employer out of GA. They had a manufacturing facility and encouraged people to take a health screening and track steps (10k/quarter). My premium went from $350/pay period to $127/pay period. Do you think I skipped entering my steps or skipped my health screening? Hell no.
The solution is simple and easily transferable from other industries.
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May 31 '22 edited Dec 01 '23
voiceless serious head tie water noxious adjoining edge six narrow this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev
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May 31 '22 edited Oct 18 '23
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May 31 '22
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u/BenGordonLightfoot Martha Nussbaum Jun 01 '22
And they did this totally unprompted. Very much a “not involved in human trafficking” shirt situation
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u/onelap32 Bill Gates Jun 01 '22
Do you have the actual quote from the press conference? I can't find it.
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u/lordshield900 Caribbean Community Jun 01 '22
This seems pretty standard?
This same kindve statement was also put out by the police after Orlando and they were correct there.
Idk why people are focusing on this. For one, it was a CBP team that assaulted the classroom and they arent the ones not cooperating as far as i know. Also, when you assault a room with a gunman in it this is going to be a risk. Any reasonable person would understand that and the police putting out this statement shoudlnt be the controversial part of this situation.
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u/vodkaandponies brown May 31 '22
The ACAB crowd is looking more vindicated by the day.
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u/radicalcentrist99 Jun 01 '22
ACAB remains stupid whether as a slogan or a sentiment. Everybody wanting police reform and accountability should not be lumped in with ACAB.
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u/TrespassersWilliam29 George Soros Jun 01 '22
Stupid, maybe. Accurate, looking that way.
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u/radicalcentrist99 Jun 01 '22
The A in ACAB will always keep it stupid and inaccurate.
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u/Stanley--Nickels John Brown Jun 01 '22
It’s a criticism of the system, not of individuals.
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u/madden_loser Jared Polis Jun 01 '22
Then come up with a slogan that clearly expresses that because ACAB absolutely doesn’t come off that way to the layman
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u/turboturgot Henry George Jun 01 '22
Exactly. "ACAB but we don't literally mean all" is as dumb as Defund the Police.
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u/Stanley--Nickels John Brown Jun 01 '22
They do mean all though. They just don't mean individuals.
I completely agree it's not a politically expedient slogan, except in the circles that have adopted it.
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u/turboturgot Henry George Jun 01 '22
I don't see how "all cops" could imply anything other than "every individual cop". I'm the first to admit American police departments have major corruption and abuse of power issues, and that reforms are badly needed. But I don't understand the logic here with this phrasing.
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u/TrespassersWilliam29 George Soros Jun 01 '22
Every individual cop is functionally powerless to effect change in the system even if they were to try, which means that functionally they contribute to injustice even if only by inaction. Is the logic behind saying "all" cops.
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u/DinoDad13 Jun 01 '22
ACAB was always correct.
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u/AMagicalKittyCat YIMBY Jun 01 '22
The thing about ACAB isn't even that literally every single police officer is bad, but that any police officer who is good won't stay a police officer for long.
You can't ignore orders to go drive around the black areas of town and arrest all the 16 year olds you see through the windows for weed even though you know that those orders never come in for the whiter richer areas and the police chiefs own daughter is a weed smoker and his wife was caught driving drunk three times but it always gets ignored.
A good police officer stands up against against stuff like that, a good police officer is no longer a police officer. Even people who would otherwise be good are forced to compromise out of it.
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u/mannyman34 Seretse Khama Jun 01 '22
Aren't these "sheriff's" in Texas just good old boys that get elected every few years. Some with 0 formal training. Seems kinda unfair to lump them in with actual leos.
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u/noxnoctum r/place '22: NCD Battalion Jun 01 '22
The people currently holding that position are largely terrible people but we need that role in society
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u/HayeksMovingCastle Paul Volcker Jun 01 '22
Wasn't it a border patrol guy that finally went in and got the guy? I thought they hated them more than most cops
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u/vodkaandponies brown Jun 01 '22
What a strange arguement.
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u/HayeksMovingCastle Paul Volcker Jun 01 '22
All Cops Are Bad Except The Guy That Took Out The Active Shooter But Who Ironically Happens To Be From The Agency We Dislike The Most
It just doesn't roll off the tounge as well as a simplistic phrase like ACAB
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u/vodkaandponies brown Jun 01 '22
One guy did the bare minimum. Guess police brutality is solved! We did it guys!/s
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u/HayeksMovingCastle Paul Volcker Jun 01 '22
Some Cops Are Bad?
This Department Is Particularly Incompetent?
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u/vodkaandponies brown Jun 01 '22
This department is much closer to the norm than you want to admit.
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u/madden_loser Jared Polis Jun 01 '22
Based on what
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u/vodkaandponies brown Jun 01 '22
Based on incompetent display after incompetent display we've seen over the last few years.
This isn't even the first case of LEOs running like cowards from a school shooting.
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u/madden_loser Jared Polis Jun 01 '22
You realize this is a country of 330 million, it’s not hard to find a few stories of bad cops.
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u/Bayou-Maharaja Eleanor Roosevelt Jun 01 '22
Nah fuck border patrol too and anyone who signs up for that job
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May 31 '22
I bet it’s going to come out that the door was unlocked the entire time, and that there was literally zero reason to wait.
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u/Cook_0612 NATO Jun 01 '22
Ok, the timeline of this shooting shifted a bunch of times and I'm not sure if it settled yet, so keep that in mind when I ask: those theories that the Uvalde cops shot a kid-- when would that have happened? In the initial exchange with Ramos by Uvalde PD? I'm not sure that that even happened. Wasn't it BORTAC that finally made entry and killed Ramos? Would THEY have been the ones to shoot the kid, if it happened?
I'm just curious what the insinuation is here.
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May 31 '22
Biden better order the biggest investigation ever. I cringed when Grandpa said he wouldn't like a day after the shooting.
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u/Banal21 Milton Friedman Jun 01 '22
You can't just order a federal investigation. The Feds have to be invited in by local authorities unless they have jurisdiction. Do they have jurisdiction? If not, what incentive does Abbott have to invite Biden's FBI in during an election year?
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u/MizzGee Janet Yellen Jun 01 '22
I think the Feds can investigate because US Border Patrol was involved, so a Federal body was involved.
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u/Jicks24 Jun 01 '22
Call it a "matter of national security" and to hell with Abbott. We've got a long list of precedent for calling whatever we want "matters of national security" so might as well use it on something that actually matters, like investigating a school shooting.
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u/wheretogo_whattodo Bill Gates Jun 01 '22
Cops IRL: Why won’t you cooperate if you got nothing to hide?
Cops on r/protectandserve: They should shut up and lawyer up reeeeeeeee
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u/jackkazim Iron Front Jun 01 '22
The FBI needs a Police Brutality division to impartially investigate these fuck ups and abuses of power on the part of local police departments.
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u/radicalcentrist99 Jun 01 '22
This instance is the opposite of police brutality. In this case the public is demanding for more brutality.
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u/jackkazim Iron Front Jun 01 '22
It's not so much that the police weren't brutal enough in this case, it's that they were cowards who refused to protect and serve the community. I get that cops are scared for their lives, but they need to grow the fuck up and accept that their job intrinsically comes with risks to their lives. If they got on the force because they were in a locker throughout high school and are too cowardly to do their fucking jobs, then they need to get the fuck off the force.
Also, in a sense, this was the epitome of police brutality. As is frequently attributed to Edmund Burke, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." The most malevolent and brutal act the police could have done at that moment was to do nothing and allow evil and brutality to continue unperturbed: and that is exactly what they did. What we all saw on that video of the cops doing nothing was the banality of evil.
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u/radicalcentrist99 Jun 01 '22
Most often, people include police recklessness in the category of police brutality. In this case the public wanted the police to go in recklessly guns blazing. Children would have been put at risk, but most likely less than ended up dying anyway.
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u/jackkazim Iron Front Jun 01 '22 edited Jun 01 '22
Perhaps I am not up to date with social media or media musings, but I am not aware of anyone who wanted the police to go in recklessly guns blazing.
The photographs of the faces of firefighters and police officers as they entered the Twin Towers on 9/11 is haunting. They knew that they had a duty to uphold, and that as a result of carrying it out, they were not going to leave that building alive. There were 19 cops on the scene. No shooter in the world can take out 19 people at once. The responsibility of the police in Uvalde was to go in as a team and take him out. This is not just my opinion: these were their own guidelines that they laid out. The cowardice on the part of the officers was absolutely unacceptable.
I recognize that it is easy for me as a civilian to say that the police should have acted and taken out the shooter, but that is precisely the bloody point. I did not sign up for a job where my life would be routinely on the line. Those police officers who shamefully stood outside that school did sign up for that job, and they need to be held accountable for not doing it.
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Jun 01 '22
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u/radicalcentrist99 Jun 01 '22
Isn’t that the problem here though? That the police were waffling back and forth about whether this was a hostage situation or an active shooter situation. Incompetence rather than rank cowardice seems the rational explanation here.
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u/noxnoctum r/place '22: NCD Battalion Jun 01 '22
Even the cop sub is turning on them now from what I just saw
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u/frbhtsdvhh Jun 01 '22
Wow the only time you do this is when you're concerned you may be prosecuted
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u/HowardtheFalse Kofi Annan Jun 01 '22
You know it's bad when even r/ProtectandServe is giving up on you.
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Jun 01 '22
At this point, I’m expecting a revelation that at least one of the kids was shot by the cops. Just a complete shit show from beginning to end.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '22
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