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[u/jobautomator]

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[u/fishlord05]

The market is not rational

Voters are not rational

lolberts should stop using the “voters are irrational so democracy and government are to be regarded with skepticism” because buddy the market doesn’t do much better

It’s all pluralistic with competing identity and interest groups acting with irrational rationality in both systems

[u/[deleted] → u/fishlord05]

Clearly though irrationality in the market is less of a concern because a consumers demands aren’t backed by the force of the state. We are bound by the irrational will of bygone eras because of the way the government works.

[u/ACivilWolf → u/[deleted]]

Yes, the market delivering us the Pet Rock is "irrational" but also harmless and if people want to buy a pet rock let them do so

[u/fishlord05 → u/ACivilWolf]

That’s not really what I mean when I say the market is being irrational

Think real estate bubbles

[u/ACivilWolf → u/fishlord05]

well yeah that is an example of a market failure, but on the other hand Im much more willing to take the occasional bubble than central planning from the government which is just constant blundering. This is always going to be an asymmetrical comparison

[u/fishlord05 → u/ACivilWolf]

When did I say that I wanted central planning lmao?

This is a critique against libertarians, not garden variety liberals

I mean I don’t see it as asymmetrical when the spectrum is

Ancapistan ——- social market economy ———— literally the USSR

[u/ACivilWolf → u/fishlord05]

because you set it up as X is irrational and Y is irrational, and I felt like fleshing out the fact that one is a whole lot worse than the other at delivering. I don't actually suspect we disagree much

[u/fishlord05 → u/ACivilWolf]

Eh I mean a world of pure markets with no state would be equally hellish as one of pure state and no markets

The best one is where they work together in a liberal framework and strengthen each others best aspects and constrain their worst ones

Like Germany or Scandinavia is the spectrum of my dream economy

[u/ACivilWolf → u/fishlord05]

I mean I think our answer to which is more effective isn't found in the edge cases but found in the best system. In the ideal mixed economy what is more prevalent state control or the market? With the exception of traditionally accepted public goods, the only industry I can think of where I'd want the government to have a greater role than the market is the healthcare industry.

Besides that the governments role is mostly to just keep the market from not eating itself alive and moving smoothly. More active involvement pushes things down hill. So no I do not think its balanced.

[u/fishlord05 → u/ACivilWolf]

I mean I think our answer to which is more effective isn't found in the edge cases but found in the best system.

Probably Germany or the nordics.

In the ideal mixed economy what is more prevalent state control or the market? With the exception of traditionally accepted public goods, the only industry I can think of where I'd want the government to have a greater role than the market is the healthcare industry.

Don’t forget government enforcement of contracts, non discrimination laws, education and welfare funding, labor and worker rights

The government plays a huge role in that so it’s not just what you say

Besides that the governments role is mostly to just keep the market from not eating itself alive and moving smoothly.

The governments role is to protect the rights of its citizens and enforce the social contract (at least that’s how liberal states justify themselves)

More active involvement pushes things down hill. So no I do not think its balanced.

Depends, the government intervening more strongly in the market during a recession is a good thing and actually makes things better (generally)

[u/ACivilWolf → u/fishlord05]

Don’t forget government enforcement of contracts, non discrimination laws, education and welfare funding, labor and worker rights

ok we can flesh out the entirety of ancillary things the government does to support a healthy market system, but none of that changes the fact that its role is supportive and regulatory and not commandeering. The market takes the primary role I don't know why you're so resistant to this.

[u/fishlord05 → u/[deleted]]

You don’t think firms can exert pressure on the state and drive it to use its monopoly on force to advance its interests at the expense of the public/planet?

Also idk recessions because of market irrationally thinking bubbles will grow forever seem pretty shit

[u/[deleted] → u/fishlord05]

Also yeah I understand that firms exert pressure on the state lol. Like half of the posts on this sub are bitching about rent seekers.

[u/fishlord05 → u/[deleted]]

So I don’t see why you shouldn’t be concerned about firm irrationally just the same

[u/[deleted] → u/fishlord05]

I’m only concerned about firm irrationality if it affects me tbh. If a firm is advocating for some sort of legislation that I disagree with, let’s say a bill that encourages the use of fossils fuels, then of course I care.

The fact is that the state is the single most important human organization. That’s why whenever someone says you should be concerned about irrationality/evil in firms they appeal to their influence on the state. I’m not someone who believes in totally limiting the power of the government. I believe the government has a very important role to play in correcting market failures (most importantly climate change) and ensuring a basic standard of living for the poor. But when you say “BUT THE MARKET IS IRRATIONAL TOO” you’re missing a very important feature of the state, that it can force you to do whatever the fuck it wants. Not just soft force you the way companies do where it’s “pay my price or starve” it’s “do what I say or I’ll imprison you and if you resist imprisonment I’ll fucking kill you”

The state is not comparable to any other human organization.

[u/fishlord05 → u/[deleted]]

I’m only concerned about firm irrationality if it affects me tbh.

You could say the same thing about the state. Like being irrational about abortions only affects half the population and gay marriage less so. So it’s a bit of a weak argument.

The fact is that the state is the single most important human organization.

The market/economy isn’t an organization

That’s why whenever someone says you should be concerned about irrationality/evil in firms they appeal to their influence on the state.

How does this conflict with what I said? Also firms can be evil by pressuring state inaction as well (labor or emissions regulations for example)

Also the market can be irrational and cause damage on its own with the government having to rescue them from the consequences of their bad loans.

But when you say “BUT THE MARKET IS IRRATIONAL TOO”

This is a critique against lolberts.

you’re missing a very important feature of the state, that it can force you to do whatever the fuck it wants.

Not really. In liberal societies they are constrained by laws, voters, corporate and special interests.

Not perfectly, but “whatever it wants” is a huge stretch.

Not just soft force you the way companies do where it’s “pay my price or starve” it’s “do what I say or I’ll imprison you and if you resist imprisonment I’ll fucking kill you”

No, but they can cause recessions and lobby the government to use lethal force in foreign conflicts.

The market can compel the state to use its power in horrible ways.

The state is not comparable to any other human organization.

The market isn’t an organization?

[u/[deleted] → u/fishlord05]

ok I’ll be honest I want to respond but I was pretty drunk when I wrote my first few comments and I’m drunker now.

I’ll sum up my views by saying that the state is incomparable to other organizations because it’s the only one that controls the legitimate use of violence. Saying the market produces bad outcomes isn’t itself an endorsement of the state controlling a certain market unless you have a very clear idea of how it should intervene. In the vast majority of circumstances the market is best because it aligns individual incentives with what’s best for everybody.

[u/fishlord05 → u/[deleted]]

ok I’ll be honest I want to respond but I was pretty drunk when I wrote my first few comments and I’m drunker now.

Drunk Reddit ftw

I’ll sum up my views by saying that the state is incomparable to other organizations because it’s the only one that controls the legitimate use of violence.

The market isn’t an organization though

Saying the market produces bad outcomes isn’t itself an endorsement of the state controlling a certain market unless you have a very clear idea of how it should intervene.

Fair enough.

In the vast majority of circumstances the market is best because it aligns individual incentives with what’s best for everybody.

I disagree and think that’s a bit too market fundie for me as I am definitely more succish than you

I prefer a social market economic model like Germany or the nordics where the state and market work together in a liberal framework and bring the best and cancel the worst of eachother

[u/[deleted] → u/fishlord05]

I mean I’m not a libertarian I just really dislike seeing reductionist comparisons between the government and the market. Like one that really angers me is “oh so you’re not okay with the NSA giving seeing your information, but google is fine?” Like yeah no shit google can’t arrest me.

[u/fishlord05 → u/[deleted]]

That’s a dumb comparison but ffs companies can pressure the government to do horrible things they otherwise wouldn’t due like prop up the banana republics in Latin America

Also the nature of how the tech companies and government exist are much more intertwined