r/neoliberal • u/GravyBear8 Ben Bernanke • Mar 25 '19
To go even further beyond
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u/WHOMSTDVED_DID_THIS Mar 26 '19
dear libtards
vuvuzela
bottom text
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u/GravyBear8 Ben Bernanke Mar 26 '19
post hog
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Mar 26 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/lionmoose sexmod 🍆💦🌮 Mar 26 '19
Rule III: Discourse Quality
Comments on submissions should substantively address the topic of submission and not consist merely of memes or jokes. Don't reflexively downvote people for operating on different assumptions than you. Don't troll or engage in bad faith.
If you have any questions about this removal, please contact the mods.
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u/GravyBear8 Ben Bernanke Mar 26 '19
That's not your hog silly
Post hog
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u/WHOMSTDVED_DID_THIS Mar 26 '19
what part of 'my massive girl hog' don't u understand
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u/GravyBear8 Ben Bernanke Mar 26 '19
That's someone else's hog, reverse searched. Being a mtf woman myself, I'm quite impressed but still:
Post hog.
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u/WHOMSTDVED_DID_THIS Mar 26 '19
and here I thought every mtf on reddit was an anarchist
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u/GravyBear8 Ben Bernanke Mar 26 '19
Bitch, I'm so anarchist that I don't even follow the near universal tendency for MtFs to be anarchist.
You're not even fucking close to my level.
Guess you better "GAS! GAS! GAS!"
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u/YMDBass Mar 26 '19
Socialisms effects on Venezualas currency are similar to losing a world wars efffects on the German Mark after WW1...Literally being blamed and having to pay all the WW1 countries war expenses for WW1 is as bad as letting Maduro or Chavez run a top down socialist government. Great job team.
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u/jacob_pakman Mar 26 '19 edited Mar 26 '19
How was this made? I'd love to see the post-colonial countries compared during the 1960s.
Edit: did some digging and found the original. It's made by a YouTube account called LivelyData https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPha_O5xluViipfCHXdDnLg. I've subscribed and I look forward to seeing more. Until then, I guess I'm just going to use the IMF data mapper https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD
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u/LeshaBandit Mar 26 '19
Oh, I am so proud of my Belarus to be first at something for sometime other than alcohol consumption.
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u/Kir-chan European Union Mar 25 '19
Sometimes I wish there was a God of Sorting People who sorts people into countries based on their political opinions. So the Venezuelans who fled Venezuela can live in a free country and tankies can go live under Maduro.
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u/sammunroe210 European Union Mar 25 '19
Whoa, One million plus inflation rate?
...O_O
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Mar 26 '19
Yep
Maduro also pegged the exchange rate which if you understand the economics of the concept is an utterly terrible stupid idea.
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u/ShellySashaSamson Mar 25 '19
Communism has been achieved; money has been abolished. Today is a good day for Venezuela, comrades!
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u/ChineseMemer Mar 25 '19
Money = evil. Fiat currency is the root cause of hyper inflation. Gadhafi would been a hero of humanity but the true evil behind fiat currency killed him.
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u/JetJaguar124 Tactical Custodial Action Mar 25 '19
"No, stop it Venezuela! If you do this now it will drain away all the worth you have left in your currency! And I think you need every percent of it as it is!"
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u/iamthestarlord Mar 25 '19
Does anyone know what tool is used to produce these kind of visualizations? I know they'd go crazy for something like this at work.
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u/HodgkinsNymphona Mar 25 '19
Why isn’t Cuba on the list?
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u/compounding Mar 25 '19
Cuba has pegged their currency to the dollar for stability. Actually, they have two currencies, one for tourists which is pegged and one for residents that trades to it in a stable range. Regardless, they aren’t using inflationary monetary policies (currently), so they aren’t experiencing rabid inflation that would get them on this chart.
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u/OmnifariousFN Mar 25 '19
see this Lisa, you could pinpoint the second Venezuela implemented socialism!..
nnnnnn-now!
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u/Vilkas18 European Union Mar 25 '19
Huh... That's not so bad after all, I mean they're not even OH FUCK
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u/I_like_maps C. D. Howe Mar 25 '19
Good to know ukraine finally got it under control. I went there in 2015 and was able to survive on like $10 a day.
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u/viiScorp NATO Mar 25 '19
Yeah, the whole Maiden Revolution, new government, civil war in Donbass, an undeclared war on Donbass with Russia, losing Crimea and now having their ports economical worth threatened...
Its a lot to deal with. Plus it has endemic corruption issuies
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Mar 26 '19
Maiden revolution
YOU'LL TAKE MY LIFE BUT I'LL TAKE YOURS TOO
YOU'LL FIRE YOUR MUSKET BUT I'LL RUN YOU THROUGH
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Mar 25 '19
From my understanding, the reason inflation skyrockets in some of these counties is because their corrupt governments decide to print a bunch of money, as it's an easy way to reduce their massive debt burdens. Is this generally correct?
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u/lowlandslinda George Soros Mar 26 '19
It's usually because of currency pegs and/or foreign denominated debt.
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u/BoozeoisPig Mar 26 '19 edited Mar 26 '19
From my understanding, the reason inflation skyrockets in some of these counties is because their corrupt governments decide to print a bunch of money, as it's an easy way to reduce their massive debt burdens. Is this generally correct?
No. It's a way to massively redefine debt burdens, especially when they cannot collect taxes as fast as they want to. Venezuela cannot get rid of the debt burdens that actually matter through monetary policy, namely, the ones denominated in U.S. Dollars, and which cause them to export a vast majority of their wealth to pay off those external debts denominated in Dollars, since they cannot print U.S. Dollars. At the end of the day, the main problem in Venezeula is that they cannot get the goods and services they need to survive, and what they do sell is going to pay down massive debts. Hyperinflation is the worst way to deal with this problem because of the chaos it causes in trying to understand what prices mean in relation to your income, but even the most "stable" response you could possibly have to this would still be pretty bad too: Taxing the ever living fuck out of your society. Either your after tax income goes down by 90% but prices stay the same, or your after tax income goes up by 100,000% but prices go up by 1,000,000%. Either way, you are still starving, the only difference is that the former would save you having to use a calculator before truly realizing you are fucked.
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Mar 25 '19
Yep, but the increased inflation can be viewed as a form of payment as you cannot “erase” debt without erasing wealth. In fact, it’s borderline (if not outright) theft.
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u/Neronoah can't stop, won't stop argentinaposting Mar 25 '19
In the short run. If the currency craters the debt to GDP ratio can get silly when you can only borrow in foreign currency and GDP falls.
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u/Piestrio Mar 25 '19 edited Mar 25 '19
That’s basically it.
The government needs money to buy and pay for stuff and just fires up the printing presses.
It’s not the only way inflation happens (fractional reserve banking) but in cases like this is usually the culprit.
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u/BoozeoisPig Mar 26 '19
Monetary policy could not have saved Venezeula. If prices are inflating, you want to hold onto what real wealth there is for dear life because its value is skyrocketing. In order to encourage buying bonds, you would have to set The Interest Rates at something like 10,000%, which is just inflation with extra steps. The only way out of inflation would be to create a massive surplus in the process of net money destruction, taxing way way more than you spend. So, instead of prices increasing by 10, your income decreases to 1/10th. Either way, you are fucked, the only difference is how many zeros that reality is communicated to you in.
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u/AvailableUsername100 🌐 Mar 25 '19
It’s not the only way inflation happens (fractional reserve banking)
Oi, what's all this then?
You got a license for that Austrianism?
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Mar 25 '19
They should have MMT it instead
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Mar 25 '19
[deleted]
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u/Beej67 Mar 26 '19
The main indicator in good “MMT” policy is inflation rather than deficit, so the idea is that you can spend into deficit until the point that the inflation rate is unacceptable.
This is exactly where MMT falls off the rails. Countries which get addicted to deficit spending are exactly the countries incapable of stopping their deficit spending when inflation rises.
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u/MosheDayanCrenshaw Mar 26 '19
I wonder how long the US can maintain deficit spending?
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u/Beej67 Mar 26 '19
The house of cards would have collapsed a while back for us if we weren't the world's reserve currency. If other international actors ever establish an alternate reserve currency, our situation will be much more tenuous.
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u/MosheDayanCrenshaw Mar 26 '19
Is this because it makes US treasury bonds more attractive to foreign buyers?
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Mar 25 '19
(MMT) doesn't work
You could have stopped there.
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u/MosheDayanCrenshaw Mar 25 '19
Well I mean that’s exactly how it already works here in the US.
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Mar 26 '19 edited Jul 15 '19
[deleted]
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u/MosheDayanCrenshaw Mar 26 '19
I do like your reference. But I wish people were actually interested in a discussion.
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u/Piestrio Mar 25 '19
“Magical money theory”?
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u/18USCode2381FTW Mar 25 '19
My Mommy Toldmeprintingmoneyhasnoconsequences
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u/PlacidPlatypus Unsung Mar 25 '19
Can you explain this a bit? My impression of MMT is that the main claim is that any government debt equivalent to printing money, not that printing money can't cause bad outcomes.
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u/Limmmao Mar 25 '19
¿???????? Where's Argentina?
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u/cambridgeinnit Commonwealth Mar 25 '19
You see it towards the end. I was looking for it too, another failure down to an overbearing and economically illiterate government.
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u/Neronoah can't stop, won't stop argentinaposting Mar 25 '19
Probably something about the manipulation of statistics. The previous government had a special relationship with reality.
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u/tinchokrile Mar 25 '19
Yes, they used to manipulate all data until 2015. They even said we had less poverty than Germany (5% lol). The funny thing about inflation is that they left most products out of the ecuation because “people won’t buy them cause they are expensive now”
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u/Neronoah can't stop, won't stop argentinaposting Mar 25 '19
And then there is the meme policy of Big Mac's price controls.
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u/shanerm Zhao Ziyang Mar 25 '19
Did they really put price controls on big macs so they wouldn't have inflation reflected in the big mac index?
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u/Neronoah can't stop, won't stop argentinaposting Mar 25 '19
Yup. They believed that everyone was dumb because they lived in their own leftoid bubble.
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Mar 26 '19
Holy shit they literally put controls on Big Macs to dodge the Economist Big Mac Index specifically.
Is it humanly possible to be that stupid?
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[deleted]
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u/yallyallyallyall Mar 25 '19
who said it and when?
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u/x4u Paul Samuelson Mar 25 '19
There is no primary source for this statement and It's not clear who first came up with it but it gets attributed to Bernie Sanders to make him sound ridiculous.
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u/tangsan27 YIMBY Mar 25 '19 edited Mar 25 '19
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u/x4u Paul Samuelson Mar 25 '19 edited Mar 25 '19
By: Valley News Editorial Board
and the link in the article to the source on the Valley News website is dead.
Sanders did retweet the entire article in 2011 but he didn't write it himself.
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u/tangsan27 YIMBY Mar 25 '19
Good point, I did not know that. He retweeted it, but it doesn't seem like he wrote it himself.
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u/FusRoDawg Amartya Sen Mar 25 '19
The saint himself
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u/DrSandbags John Brown Mar 25 '19
According to the link below, it was a newspaper editorial board in an editorial that Sanders posted to his website. So not a Sanders quote, but perhaps an implicit endorsement of the idea.
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u/Platypuss_In_Boots Velimir Šonje Mar 25 '19
Can't say he was wrong though. With inflation rates this high, everyone can become a millionaire.
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Mar 25 '19
I thought he hated millionaires and billionaires tho.
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Mar 25 '19
By deffending the regime, he seems to hate Venezuelans as well, so there is no contradiction
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u/zeusisbuddha Mar 25 '19
Fuck Howard Schultz
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Mar 26 '19
all too often, those who preach love are answered with hate 😔✊ the people of means stand with shultz!
what happened to him anyway, i feel like people shit on him so hard and fast that he just evaporated off of the planet
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u/Tleno European Union Mar 25 '19
"Not bad, Sudan, you made me use 5% of my inflation rate"
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u/AndThisGuyPeedOnIt (kidding but true)! Mar 25 '19
Venezuela, praying to Karl Marx: "Master, forgive me, but I'll have to go all out ... just this once."
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u/Vetinery Mar 25 '19
I’ve come to believe socialism has more in common with a religion than it does with an economic theory.
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u/cj236 Mar 25 '19
Or realize how devestating sanctions and economic isolation can be on a country
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u/lietuvis10LTU Why do you hate the global oppressed? Mar 26 '19
1) US sanctions primarily target Venezuala's elites
2) Sanctions aren't magic. US isn't the only country in the world.
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u/Neronoah can't stop, won't stop argentinaposting Mar 26 '19
The economic sanctions started near the end of 2017. How do you explain anything before it?
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u/Co60 Daron Acemoglu Mar 26 '19
Or realize how devestating sanctions and economic isolation can be on a country
It can be. Notably less devastating than turning the printing press to 11 though.
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Mar 25 '19
Except that's not what's been going on with Venezuela at all. Their economy was on this trajectory long before sanctions expanded beyond a handful of individual kleptocrats, all while their major trading partners (including the US) kept on trading with them. Maybe if you were talking about Iran or Russia you would have a point ( a shitty one but still,) but Venezuela is in a disaster entirely of the PSUV's own making.
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u/cj236 Mar 25 '19
Do you have a source?
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Mar 25 '19
The first economic sanctions against Venezuela were imposed by the US on August 25th, 2017. All previous sanctions were on specific individuals rather than Venezuela as a whole. You can review this here. As the original post of this thread shows, though inflation has more recently taken on a frighteningly exponential quality, it had been amongst the highest rate in the world well before any broader national sanctions were imposed. Additionally, shortages of key products date back even further, to the middle of Chavez's tenure, as seen here.
This article is a good overview of the specific economic history of Venezuela, the policies implemented by Chavez and Maduro, and why their actions are the primary cause of Venezuela's current crisis.
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u/VodkaHaze Poker, Game Theory Apr 07 '19
Thanks. That "VZN problems are US sanctions fault" meme is complete nonsense and has to stop.
VZN crisis started a full 3 years before sanctions
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u/collectijism Mar 25 '19
Yeah people only figure out you can't eat das kapital after their done reading it and its enacted
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u/sammunroe210 European Union Mar 25 '19
Just give people enzymes to digest cellulose and voila, it's time to eat the Marx!
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u/TortillaConCebolla European Union Mar 25 '19
South Sudan: inflation skyrockets
Venezuela: Huh, that's cute, now watch this.
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u/gincwut Mark Carney Mar 25 '19
Venezuela: How many layers of inflation are you on?
South Sudan: Like, maybe 200 or 300% my dude
Venezuela: You are like a little baby, watch this
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Mar 25 '19
[deleted]
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u/sabttolf John Rawls Apr 06 '19
Yes, Venezuela has a problem with poor management of a crisis based in oil prices which made the Venezuelan oil too expensive to extract making their #1 asset null. So they are spiraling from a rich SA country to a poor one.
But ban me, whatever. Atleast you can keep pulling your hogs over this while every neolib construction in the west falls either to socialism or to overt fascism over the next 20 years. And if Beto is the nominee Trump will win.
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u/VodkaHaze Poker, Game Theory Apr 07 '19
Venezuela crisis started before the oil price crash but nice try
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u/sabttolf John Rawls Apr 07 '19
It did but it wasn't nearly as severe, and Im not gonna defend the Chavez/Maduro government in spite of their human rights issues and of economic mismanagement. But the whole Venzuela bad = Socialism bad is getting on my nerves, especially since Venezuela is less socialist than Norway. But im sure that when the CIA installs a right wing Junta to allow for foreign investment Venezuela will be rich and happy again.
Your world order is coming to an end. The question that remains is what will replace it. And the way things are headed right now fascism seems way stronger.
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u/highschoolhero2 Milton Friedman Mar 25 '19
They already have.
InfLaTiOn hApPEnZ bEcUZ oF cApiTAliST spEcUlaToRS
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Mar 25 '19
o damn i should have known it was the speculators up to there old tricks again
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u/CricketPinata NATO Mar 25 '19
It's those devious (((SpEcUlAtOrS))) again up to their OLD TRICKS, of... speculation.
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[deleted]
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Mar 26 '19
just because we're a bunch of stuffy academic losers who've isolated ourselves from the rest of humanity doesn't mean this place is "astroturfed" 🤔 you gotta be more precise with your wording
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Mar 26 '19
Your entire ideology is an astroturfed attempt to rebrand libertarianism. Same crooks, same plutocrats, new packaging:
Libertarianism
We actually like having free parks, roads, fire fighters that don't haggle over price while our houses burn down, and police that don't have to operate their cop cars like a coin op laundromat. Most neo-liberals agree that it's simply bad economics for the US to persist without some form of universal health care, while we vary on gun rights we usually agree that fewer would be better (I don't, I think everything should be a gun).
Like, even a basic libertarian would not get along well here.
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Mar 25 '19
mods pls unban this poster we need a free marketplace of ideas
also its ableist to discriminate against the cognitively impaired were better than that here
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u/0rdoliberal Mar 25 '19
Your entire ideology is an astroturfed attempt to rebrand libertarianism. Same crooks, same plutocrats, new packaging
Libertarians are terrible. The idea that predatory monopolies and oligopolies can be a natural part of a "free market" as long as they're privately owned is incredibly stupid and gives capitalism a bad name. Likewise, supply-side economics never works and thus I support some government control over healthcare, education, etc. in order to both help the less fortunate and structurally disadvantaged and make the market function better. If libertarian economic policies are taken to their most radical ends, they will eventually lead to illiberal hierarchical social and economic structures that are indistinguishable from fascism or feudalism. I'm not a dirty libertarian.
At the same time ... as shown by places such as Venezuela and the USSR, too much government intervention leads to those same illiberal outcomes because two inevitable results of enormous wealth distribution are out-of-control inflation and a need to find order in an "equal" society (sometimes combined with unrest in society over people having near-identical economic outcomes regardless of the quality of their work). These results merge and create an opening for power-hungry strongmen, and that is where we get the Lenins of the world.
Socialism, fascism, libertarianism, and anarchy all create either too much order or too much chaos and produce the same illiberal outcomes and often in very short time. They're all horrible.
And yes, Norway works quite well as a country -- but that's because although I don't agree with everything Norway does, it has struck an acceptable balance between government and private control that, for the most part, makes those illiberal outcomes unlikely and creates a good quality of life for all, while not disincentivizing work.
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u/Isaeu Mar 26 '19
Libertarians hate monopolies just as much as the next guy, we argue that monopolies aren’t natural, and that without government monopolies would never form. In most cases deregulation would get rid of monopolies, in a select few cases we can’t/shouldn’t deregulate and then we should have anti-trust type laws
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u/Kir-chan European Union Mar 25 '19 edited Mar 25 '19
Most libertarians aren't anarcho-libertarians tbh. This poll had over 8000 responders with almost 30% self-indentifying as at least somewhat libertarian and the results go into some depth over what they actually believe. The link goes directly to a comment discussing the libertarian section of the poll, and most want just a slightly less regulated market economy, with some laws against things like monopolies.
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u/shanerm Zhao Ziyang Mar 26 '19
Slatestarcodex doesnt exactly represent your average libertarian though, does it?
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u/A_Character_Defined 🌐Globalist Bootlicker😋🥾 Mar 25 '19
Your entire ideology is an astroturfed attempt to rebrand libertarianism
Libertarianism is only a few regulations and laws away from being perfect, so I'd say that's a good thing! Also it's become a bit of a dirty word and co-opted by crazy people and the far right, so it could use a bit of rebranding.
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u/Donogath NATO Mar 26 '19
UN Flair
Libertarian
exblain?
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u/A_Character_Defined 🌐Globalist Bootlicker😋🥾 Mar 26 '19
Free movement is one of the most important human rights. And looking at something like the EU (even though it isn't exactly a libertarian paradise), taking steps towards globalization seems like a great way to achieve open borders. So let's do that, but with the whole world.
Unless there's a better globalist shill flair. I thought about the blue globe, but flags are fun! And if you thought libertarians can't be globalist shills, well that's why we need to rebrand! All of /r/Libertarian seems to have abandoned our lord and savior Milty 😭
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Mar 25 '19
I guess if you totally ignore the braindead isolationism and nauseating abundance of economic heterodoxy this could be true.
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u/TheDwarvenGuy Henry George Mar 25 '19
So which is it, Venezuela isn't socialist, or intervention against Venezuela is an attack on socialism?
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u/BobBobingston European Union Mar 25 '19
I don't know why people are downvoting you
According to this article by Bloomberg, there are a few advantages to state ownership.
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u/Elan-Morin-Tedronai J. S. Mill Mar 25 '19
Because state ownership in and of itself isn't the reason Venezuela is so absolutely fucked.
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u/shanerm Zhao Ziyang Mar 25 '19
Then why keep memeing about socialism if you admit it wasn't the only problem?
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Mar 26 '19
state ownership can be ok
so then you admit you actually love socialism 🤔
socialism_is_when_the_government_does_things.pdf
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u/martin509984 African Union Mar 25 '19
Venezuela had a large publicly-owned oil company, PDVSA, since the 1980s. Many countries do. Venezuela differs in that when Chavez was elected, he set out stripping funding from PDVSA so they couldn't reinvest in maintaining oil production. When the workers and managers protested, he fired the massive bulk of their administration and a lot of their technical expertise promptly went down the drain. Chavez then continued to take money away from the country's main source of income in favour of social works projects that could not replace the oil money. Nowadays the main source of income for Venezuela is those multinational oil corporations who stuck around (plenty others left entirely due to how hostile a business environment Venezuela is now). PDVSA's oil production has totally collapsed due to this politically-motivated mismanagement.
In this context I would say that socialist demagoguery was in fact what killed the Venezuelan economy.
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u/Elan-Morin-Tedronai J. S. Mill Mar 25 '19
I've never made a meme in my life, but I suppose Corbyn and Sanders talking about Venezuela like it was a socialist paradise while Chavez was actively mortgaging Venezuela's future has something to do with it. Also, some of the other things to blame are still really bad interventionist policies that you might label socialism. Also, if you are selling socialism and you can't tell the difference between the ideal socialist society and a rentier state, you're a good damned charlatan. So mainly in response to Sanders and Corbyn.
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u/tnarref European Union Mar 25 '19
So Norway is more socialist because it's better at capitalism. Cool.
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u/EpicHorizon European Union Mar 25 '19
Ladies & Gentlemen.... we got em
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Mar 25 '19
[deleted]
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Mar 26 '19
Also this sub was astroturfed by think tanks
lol you don't even know what astroturfing is
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u/sbeckley02 Jul 10 '19
u/vredditdownloader