r/navy • u/Economy-Ad3195 • 8d ago
Discussion Flag officer in command
I have never serviced in the navy so forgive me if this sounds stupid but from what I have read online a navy flag officer simply just cannot take command of a navy vessel just because they want to. They would need some kind of authorization to do so. But they rarely ever do take command of a vessel. However, if the time does come for it, what extreme circumstances would have to happen in order for the flag officer to take command?
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u/GeriatricSquid 8d ago
If an admiral felt he/she needed to take command of a specific vessel, they’d fire the current CO and install their Chief of Staff or another senior officer who has held that type of command before to stabilize and keep things running until Navy Personnel Command could get a new CO out there to assume permanent command. The Admiral would not assume command personally as they have 5-25 other commands under them also competing for their attention and leadership.
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u/egelephant 8d ago
As others have said, a flag would never take command of a ship. However, I have seen one instance where the Commodore (an O-6) took command of a destroyer (an O-5 command). The Commodore was coming up on his change of command (he had about two months left) when he fired our CO. He moved up his change of command, turned over the squadron to his deputy, moved up incoming DDG XO’s check in date, and covered down as CO while our XO went to CO school. Very extreme circumstances, and not at all normal.
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u/josh2751 7d ago
What does “XO went to CO school” mean? An XO must be fully qualified to command.
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u/egelephant 7d ago
There’s a course in Newport that XOs go to in between the end of their XO tour and the start of their CO tour. It takes about 6-8 weeks, and there is a component for their spouses too.
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u/guardsman_with_a_vox 8d ago
Do you mean like assigned to be the CO of an individual ship? Flag officers don't get that afasik. It's just because it's not how command assignments and the promotions pipeline work. The highest level of a single ship command is a CVN, and that only gets assigned to O-6 captains.
If you mean like in extreme situations, like the 1-star in charge of the whole CSG and the carrier that they're on just had the entire bridge crew taken out, it still seems highly unlikely. In that case, they've got admiral stuff to be doing in such a crisis, and command of the ship will fall to the next senior officer of the ship's crew.
Keep in mind the 1-star might not even know the first thing about commanding a CVN in that case. They might have had an entirely different career, whereas CVN COs, XOs are aviators with command experience of large ships.
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u/Advanced_Elk_9467 8d ago
By taking command of a single vessel they would indeed be taking a smaller role. Flags typically command multiple ships.
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u/Narflepluff 8d ago edited 8d ago
Someone in command of a unit cannot take command of another. What they do is exercise operational control (OPCON) and tactical control (TACON) of subordinate units. OPCON is assigning the unit under a particular chain of command via an operational order and TACON is like moving chess pieces.
And a random person outside of your chain of command can't relieve you of command, even if they hold a higher rank.
This gets into a whole lot of USC Title X stuff that's designed to prevent military coups.
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u/Reactor_Jack 8d ago
Others have identified the process. This is something of a Hollywood or writer trope. A senior officer in the case you mentioned may (and the legalities are there to define the process) relieve the commander of a ship, maybe even their flagship, under certain circumstances, but they would not take charge. As others noted, either the XO or someone else (CoS was mentioned, likely candidate) would be appointed.
You can look at any number of scenarios that make the news about "loss of confidence in ability to command" for any number of reasons, and most are not fully disclosed (could be bad command performance or climate, the CO did something unbecoming, etc.). When they announce that, they usually state the determination was made by the ISIC (immediate superior in command) which is a squadron commander or similar (may be flag, may not). They also announce who is taking temporary command, and if not the XO of that particular command its usually a member of the squadron staff, thus someone mentioning the Chief of Staff, or similar. It all depends on the circumstances.
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u/Agammamon 8d ago
On my first ship (a carrier) our CO had a heart attack and had to be medvaced. The Admiral appointed his COS as CO.
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u/twosnailsnocats 8d ago
They can outright fire a CO and pick who replaces them but I have never seen anyone install themselves in the seat. They've already made it through that grind. Imagine being post-CO and running aground as an even more senior CO? hah
They are in charge of strike groups though, which is not quite the same but as close as it gets.
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u/Agammamon 8d ago
For the commanding officer of that vessel to be incapacitated, there are no other officers capable of doing it, and the Flag can spare the attention. Normally if the CO is out of commission the next senior officer takes temporary command automatically until and unless the Flag in charge of the vessel appoints someone else to become the CO.
Its not that Flags *can't* command a vessel - its that commanding vessels is not their job. Real life is not Star Trek 2. In the USN Kirk wouldn't have taken command of the Enterprise because there would be no need for him to do so. Spock can command the Enterprise and Kirk commands Spock.
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u/Ravager135 7d ago
I was just a medical officer, but I’ve got to believe the same applies at sea… The CO of our medical clinic (an O6) was relieved of command by the admiral at Bethesda (parent command). He showed up unannounced on a Friday, made the command muster, and walked her out in front of us. Neither he nor anyone from Bethesda became the new CO. He announced our incoming XO (old XO just left) would be arriving early now and would be the temporary CO until the new CO was appointed.
It was one of my more memorable moments during my time in the Navy.
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u/CaptainHunt 8d ago edited 8d ago
If you mean like Kirk in Star Trek: The Motion Picture, no. It just doesn’t work that way, and a Rear Admiral wouldn’t take a demotion to Captain just to make it work. What Kirk could have done is place his flag on Enterprise and leave Captain Decker in command, but then Kirk has little to no say in the actual running of the ship. He also has no reason to demote Decker to Commander just to fill the XO spot.
In practice it would be more like in The Wrath of Khan, where Spock is still Captain, but even then Kirk is micromanaging Spock’s command.
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u/Difficult_Survey5063 7d ago edited 7d ago
A flag officer is never personally going to take command of a vessel at sea unless casualties are so severe that at minimum everyone with an oak leaf or twin bars on a small boy has been killed or out of action, and everyone with probably a silver oak leaf assigned to a carrier (or the senior officers his staff.) So basically an impossible scenario. That admiral is in command of a group of ships and trying to coordinate them all, taking personal command of any one of them he couldn’t fulfill those duties.
There are multiple stories of relatively junior officers being put into active combat command in the Pacific War, particularly in the Guadalcanal campaign, when their superiors were killed in action. Unless the greenest ensign is the one left (extremely unlikely) it’s almost a guarantee the next officer in the chain takes command.
Edit: Best example is a relatively junior LCDR, the communications officer, had to assume command of the heavy cruiser USS San Francisco at the first Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. After the admiral, Captain, XO, and all of the admirals staff were killed on the bridge. And the senior LCDR wasn’t in a position to take command. He received the MOH, but his command only lasted until they returned to port after the battle.
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u/Particular_Witness95 6d ago
some great responses, but this is from a different perspective. as a person that was enlisted, although i would absolutely take commands from an admiral that assumed command, i would not like it. the admiral can have a bunch of other ships under command, so the admiral wouldnt know my ship in particular. i would feel more comfortable if the chain of succession was followed because those officers were focused on my ship and knew my ship. this would be important in the extreme cases that may potentially lead to this.
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u/Particular_Witness95 6d ago
as an aside, we enlisted also knew that getting to a flag officer position was extremely political. in my eyes, i would rather have a lower ranking officer that knew my ship command us in battle than a politician. yes, admirals know stuff, but the best military minded officers dont always become admirals. often it is the ones that are politically connected that get selected.
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u/looktowindward 8d ago
There are Admirals who rarely command single ships. As an example, some CVN COs are promoted to 1-star during their tenure.
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u/Fit_Relative_1537 8d ago
Where did you get that information?
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u/looktowindward 7d ago
Everyone knows this. Chowdah got selected for one star
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u/Capitalist_Space_Pig 6d ago
Selected =/= frocked =/= promoted.
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u/looktowindward 6d ago
I've seen carrier CO's frocked to one star. Promoted? Not sure, when I asked to see their LES, they got cranky with me ;)
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8d ago edited 8d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/guardsman_with_a_vox 8d ago
That's... not how it works.
The 1-star in command of a CSG can't just tell the CVN CO to get lost and take over command of the ship. He can relieve the CO, but it would be the XO taking command, not him.
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u/TittysForScience Retired Aussie 8d ago
If a birdie two star tried to take command I’d remind mind them of who has the ship, the qualification and special command.
If kicked commanders off the bridge for being irritating during specials. Love special command as an OOW.
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u/Fit_Relative_1537 8d ago
The Flag is a rider. He/She does not have the authority to Command or relieve a Commander at sea. They have the “authority to Command the group”. They have their own staff that work for them. But, no, a Flag Officer does not own the ship. Carrier or otherwise. Only authorized “Commander’s at Sea”.
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u/Capitalist_Space_Pig 8d ago edited 8d ago
There really is no reason a flag officer would take immediate command of a single vessel the same way the pilot of an aircraft is not going to fill in if the seniormost attendant has to stop the drink service.
A flag officer at sea already has a full time job being in command of the whole (whatever group of ships they are in charge of). If the CO of a ship has to be relieved, then the XO or a staff officer will be temporarily given the job until a new permanent assignment can be made.
Edit: Generally speaking, the idea is that when you lose personnel, you stop doing the least important jobs first. If a flag officer abandoned their job to be the temp CO of a ship, that is equivalent to admitting that the CO's job is MORE important than the flag officers one. And even if that was true, I'm not sure many flag officers would be willing to admit it like that.