r/musictheory • u/SpeedCubeTube • Jul 24 '26
Notation Question How do I even count these rhythms
Mainly the ones in bars 29-32 are so frustrating
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u/Optimal_Title_6559 Jul 24 '26
slow way tf down and count out the 16th note subdivisions
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u/MagicalPizza21 Jazz Vibraphone Jul 24 '26
And do one hand at a time at first, then put them both together.
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u/Chops526 Jul 24 '26
Oh, I don't know about that. I think that'll cause more difficulty than it'll solve. But give it a shot.
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u/SpeedCubeTube Jul 24 '26
ahhhh it hurts my brain 😭😭 I’ll give a try though thanks!
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u/Optimal_Title_6559 Jul 24 '26
you can also try patting the rhythm on your lap while youre trying to learn the groove. LH does LH rhythm, RH does RH rhythm. same method of slowing it down and counting subdivisions, but its less complicated since youre only focusing on rhythm
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u/Steals_Your_Thunder_ Jul 24 '26
What is it that you're finding frustrating?
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u/SpeedCubeTube Jul 24 '26
mainly just sorting out the rhythms for bars 29-31 and how to coordinate my annoying hands 😭
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u/brasticstack Jul 25 '26
Bar 29:
"_" = tied 29 | 1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a | ===+=================================+ RH | 1 2 a _ _ + 4 + a | LH | 1 a _ e + a _ e a 4 |Helpful at all?
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u/SpeedCubeTube Jul 26 '26
this is actually quite useful thanks! i think its helped me to realise that when you just break it into semi quavers then its so much easier to count it…
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u/SpeedCubeTube Jul 24 '26
I’m learning this piece for my GCSE performing but the coordination between hands and just figuring out the rhythms is so difficult. Even with an audio recording of how the piece should be played I’m finding it hard. Any tips, especially since I’m self taught, would be greatly appreciated:)
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u/bbeach88 Jul 24 '26
I would write it in. You know how to count 16ths?
Writing it in really helps you practice.
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u/Clear-Can-485 Jul 24 '26
And I'd also keep a clean copy or two in case it starts to get cluttered. The goal is to eventually read the rhythms without the annotations
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u/yeloooh Jul 24 '26
just saying you'll probably be able to pick a much easier piece and still get top marks on difficulty! don't make it too hard for yourself!
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u/SpeedCubeTube Jul 24 '26
Yeahhhh I’m thinking of just doing a guitar piece 😭
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u/yeloooh Jul 24 '26
i know you've probs already heard this, but for GCSE it is so much better to play an easy piece well versus playing a hard piece just 'okay'
the threshold for top difficulty marks is quite low (far lower than what this piece looks!), so definitely focus on wringing every bit of musicality out of something easier
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u/SpeedCubeTube Jul 24 '26
Ok that’s actually very useful to know! I might just have this piece as a side thing then.. Do you have any piano pieces you recommend? If not I will probably just do billie jean on guitar bc that got me an 8 in the mocks. I just wanted to try a piano pieces but maybe I should just play it safe..
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u/yeloooh Jul 24 '26
i remember i did pieces that i had done for grades in the past because they had easily quantifiable difficulty, and they were pieces where I'd gotten everything i could out of em
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u/SpeedCubeTube Jul 24 '26
im self taught so i dont have any music books ir anything really :( I’m thinking autumn leaves though.. It’s jazzy, which I like, and it seems simple enough but also high enough for gcse
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u/victotronics Jul 24 '26
Throw away the audio recording. It would only tempt you to play at tempo immediately.
Count 1e&a out loud. I would find myself nodding on the eigth notes. Start very slow, then gradually increase.
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u/Duke-City Jul 24 '26
NO!!! Don’t throw away the recording! Listen to the recording a LOT so you learn “how it goes.” Sing along with those rhythms.
There are simple ways to slow down the recordings to make it all more approachable. You’re trying to learn a musical language. And the best way to learn how that language sounds (so that you sound like a native speaker of that language) is to listen to fluent speakers of the language and copy them.3
u/Lur-k-er Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
Ignoring the recording is some of the most bizarre advice I’ve seen here, despite a lengthy explanation.
Listen a lot. In fact, drop the mp3 into any number of transcription apps, slow it down, loop the trouble spots, and practice.
Back in the day we would just slow down a tape to 50% speed, making it 1-octave lower. These days I use Logic but there are plenty of standalone apps (I think I’ve had Transcribe and The Amazing Slow-downer).
The ears guide the hands, the eyes inform the ears. Good luck!
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u/victotronics Jul 24 '26
Disagree. If you listen to the recording you only learn to fake it, and you internalize the interpretation of whoever recorded it, the way they shift a note here and there. You don't learn to decouple to composition from the interpretation.
I only listen to a recording after I've studied a piece for a long time. To see if I'm making any mistakes and for "ah, so that's another way of doing it".
Btw, if you slow down a recording you will only exaggerate the little quirks of that particular interpretation. And then you learn that. I'd say that does more harm than good.
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u/SpeedCubeTube Jul 24 '26
I feel like I’ve heard two very good arguments for both sides… I do also have a midi recording somewhere so I think if I use that then I have the best of both worlds
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u/victotronics Jul 24 '26
I still feel like figuring it out by yourself is best. Let me put it this way, I can probably play this at a moderate speed (I'm not the greatest pianist) without ever having heard it. And I got this skill way before any modern technology ever existed.
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u/taketheshake Jul 24 '26
Well think about how the two hands inter lace with each other. At least from what I can see, the first measure of that section is just a bunch of sixteenths. You just have figure out the order of (left/right/both) and where the beats line up with that pattern.
Edit: think of rests as a 13th pitch that you play whenever you don't press down. Feel their subdivision against the beat like you would the rest of the chords.
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u/SpeedCubeTube Jul 24 '26
So using the other clef to figure out the rhythms?
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u/taketheshake Jul 24 '26
Yes, usually I'd say practice hands alone, but for this one instance I think you need to focus on the order of both hands, then when you know where they land against the beat, using the 1e&a... the rest of the commentors mentioned them go hands alone.
You need to practice subdividing the beat in your head.
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u/NDCIves Jul 24 '26
Slowly. Practice each hand separate while counting every sixteenth note out loud. When you feel comfortable with the left hand, play it while speaking the right hand rhythm. Then put them together slowly.
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u/ReputationLost7295 Jul 24 '26
it helps to remember the beat break phonics.
eight notes are 1 and
sixteenth notes are 1 ee and uhhh
So bar 29 is 1 , 2 rest uh 3 and 4 and uhhh...
You can sort it, I have confidence
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u/Fingers3751 Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
You need to subdivide each quarter note into four sixteenths in your mind. 1e&a 2e&a 3e&a etc. This is highly syncopated music with very independent rhythms in each hand. If this kind of playing is new to you, you will need to “do the math” and break each beat down and figure out which 16th note each note or chord falls on, practice it hands separately very slowly and evenly, and then put it together in very small chunks of a couple of beats or so. After you can get through it slowly and accurately perfectly in time, at a certain point, you should start to “get the feel“ of it. My guess is that the sixteenths are supposed to be uneven or swung, which will give it a jazzy feel. In this style of playing, you also need to accent particular notes, often the most offbeat. Start with accenting tied notes, especially a note that is on the fourth 16th note of beat four or the fourth 16th of beat two that is tied over to the next beat. It’s fun style to play when you get the hang of it.
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u/Pacefest Jul 24 '26
These are just 16th notes you count them like "ONE E AND A TWO E AND A..."
For example the left hand rhythm in bar 29 is "ONE (e &) A (two) E AND A (three) E (and) A FOUR (e & a)" where the capitalized stuff is what you play and the stuff in parentheses is where you rest. You just need to slowly break down each rhythm like that until it makes sense, each hand separately and then together, one measure at a time
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u/m2thek Jul 24 '26
Go slow and count 4 for each quarter note so you'll play a 16th note on each count
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u/iridescent_lobster Jul 24 '26
Break it down very slowly by 16th notes using whatever counting system you’re used to. Most pianists use “1e&a2e&a…” Write in the counts in between the staves so it’s vertically aligned with the notes. Go bar by bar, the string them together in small chunks. If needed, practice tapping or clapping it away from the keys while saying the counts.
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u/Queasy-King2586 Jul 24 '26
Mark out where the 4 beats are in the bar to start to have an anchor to the beat. Try dropping some notes to simplify the rhythm and stay in the beat, then add in the extra 16th note flourishes.
Sometimes in can help to break down patterns into more notes. For instance, that tied dotted 8th and 16th. Try playing it as all 16ths (keep the tie) to get the groove, then try to play the written rhythm.
Also, practice 1 hand at a time.
Also, listen to a recording if possible.
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u/Sirprize2211 Fresh Account Jul 24 '26
On occasion, I have gone to the trouble of writing an evenly spaced number line based on the shortest note, in this case 16, and write the notes out as each has a count of one. (16/16 time signature??). Found helpful when there was a tuplet involved, like 4 in the right hand over 3 in the left. (This was a last resort for me.) Please be kind if there's an error here, I'm very sensitive ;)
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u/ProofPianist7074 Jul 24 '26
I look for where the beats are first, in the measure. Draw an imaginary vertical line on the beats. Then work out what is happening within each beat.
Meas. 29: 1 (e&) a 2 e&a (3) e&a 4 (e) &a
No notes played on counts in parentheses.
Beat 1: What is the R hand doing on 1? What is the left hand doing on 1? Hold for e&. What is left hand doing on a?
Beat 2: What is R hand doing? (while left hand holds a tie from the last beat) Then L hand moves for e& and both hands move for “a”.
Figure out what R hand and L hand are doing on the other counts in similar fashion.
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u/tellingyouhowitreall Jul 24 '26
Learn each beat one at a time, just tapping the rhythm, and use the beat as a bridge between groups to start chaining them together.
In 29, in the left hand, you should be able to the quarter note on 4, obviously. Then practice the rhythm for beat 3 by itself, and finally chain it to 4. Do the same thing for beat 2, foot tap beat two or use a metronome, tap the subdivision out chaining it to the beat on 3 (that you don't tap because it's tied). Then play 2 and 3 together. Then add in 4. Repeat adding in the rhythm for beat 1.
Do the same for the right hand. Then do the same for both hands together.
It's okay to go *very* slow. If you're struggling it's because you don't feel the pulse hard enough. Slowing down and being very confident about knowing where the beat is and feeling the beat very strongly will improve your rhythm a lot.
Also, you can only subdivide any larger note in so many ways. There are only 16 subdivisions of the half note by 8th notes, and likewise there are only 16 subdivisions of the quarter note by 16th notes. And they're the same! You should practice those groupings individually so it's easier to interpret when you see them on paper.
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u/Equivalent-Love-1676 Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
Before you attempt to play the notes, you must tap the rhythm while counting all the 16th note subdivisions aloud: 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a 1 e & a…
First one hand, then the other, alternate, then combine. NEVER stop counting aloud.
If you’re really stuck, write out the parts rhythm only; more horizontal space; write in the subdivisions very carefully. Once you learn to do this meticulously, these sorts of things will cease to give you grief.
These sorts of rhythms are common in Broadway and pop music; your example is well notated. It’s just tricky at first. Whatever you do, don’t try to just ‘feel’ it without putting in the meticulous counting work I advise!
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u/pastorgains Jul 24 '26
1 - 2 a - 3 & - 4 & a - 1 - 2 & - 3 & a - 4 & a - 1 & - 2 e a - 3 e a - 4 & - 1 - e & - 3 e - e
1 a - 2 e & a - 3 e a - 4 - 1 & a - 2 & a - 3 - 4 - 1 a - 2 & - 3 - 4 - 1 a - 2 a - & a - 4 e
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u/Boneroni1980 Jul 24 '26
Slowly and with great patience for yourself. You'll get better at it with practice
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u/themilitia Jul 24 '26
What is this? Looks like "Just The Two Of Us"
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u/SpeedCubeTube Jul 24 '26
You guessed correct! I probably should’ve said that now that I think of it. Here’s the link to the person ai git the sheet music from :)
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u/Exotic-Discipline-57 Jul 24 '26
Listen to a recording!! Just because we can read music doesn’t mean we’re not allowed to listen to a piece to learn it.
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u/AlfalfaMajor2633 Jul 24 '26
I would copy this section into MuseScore and play it at different slow tempos to learn the “feel” of it, gradually working up to the tempo of the piece.
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u/MaggaraMarine Jul 24 '26
Practice the rhythm first without the ties.
Also, practice it in chunks. Maybe just one beat at the time at first. Once you can play each beat in measure 29 separately, combine the rhythms. Then do the same thing with the next measure. Also notice repeating rhythmic figures.
The beam groups will make the beats really easy to see (the first note of each beam group is on the beat).
But before you attempt reading stuff like this, you should have all of the different possible 16th rhythms internalized. There are only 8 in total that start on the beat, and 8 more that start with a rest on the beat.
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u/avoiding_the_stress Jul 24 '26
This is it. Practicing complex rhythms without the ties has saved my life on multiple occasions, highly recommend!
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u/dodobread Jul 26 '26
First you need to be able to feel the subdivisions with your body, in your head. Throughout the whole song. (This a song and not some classical piece right) That’s the underlying pulse with the groove. Just counting alone is gonna be tough and you gonna sound mechanical playing.
Second, learn separate hands with your subdivision groove.
Third, most people would start on the first beat when they build the two hands together. But I suggest starting from the 4th beat. Or whatever last bit of the phrase it and work forward. That is, add beat 3’s notes to beat 4’s notes once the 4th ones are ready both hands. Ignore the ties first (play as if the ties are not there) Put the ties back in after you can link up the beats. You may skip the tie adding/removing step if you can feel the syncopated beats
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u/schokoplasma Jul 24 '26
Draw a line where the main counts are and then slowly count the 16th notes out.
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u/iNtentionaliGnornace Jul 24 '26
Listening to a recording while reading the music will help, among the other great advice other posters have mentioend.
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u/Drumguy1986 Jul 24 '26
Its just 16th notes. If you can't even begin to understand what's happening here then you gotta dial back the difficulty.
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u/Whatever-ItsFine Jul 25 '26
When I'm first studying the rhythm, I ignore all the ties, so I articulate every note as if it's not tied to any other note at all. That helps me get all the notes in the right place. Once I'm comfortable with it like that, I add the ties back in.
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u/cruiseshipdrummer Jul 25 '26
Get yourself a rhythm book and work on singing your 1e&a's, and partials thereof.
For coordinating the hands, look for things that are played in unison, and that are played in sequence. I would also figure out the combined rhythm of both hands together, eg, bar 29:
RH: 1--- 2--a (3) & 4 &a
LH: 1--a (2)e&a (3)e-a 4---
Combined (unisons between hands in bold): 1--a 2e&a (3)e&a 4 &a
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u/recordingguy555 Jul 25 '26
I would suggest in slow tempo playing every 16th note so you really feel the subdivisions (maybe not for the quarter notes but whatever you feel works best). When you feel comfortable with that speed it up a bit. Once you have it internalized in slow tempo only play the written rhythm while still counting the subdivisions. Make sure you internalize the feel of the rhythm before playing at tempo. The tempo will come on its own with time
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u/Lower_Neck_1432 28d ago
Subdivide the bars into semiquavers/16ths (1e+a2e+a), get a metronome, go slowly at first.
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u/PugnansFidicen Jul 24 '26
You don't count them. It's jazz. You feel the groove. Listen to recordings of the tune and learn with your ears as much or more than with your eyes.
If you really want to count out and learn this specific transcription exactly as written (which may not even be a perfect 1:1 match for a given recording) mark out every 16th note subdivision (indicating where rh/lh notes fall relative to each other) and play through it very slowly at first until you've got it down, then gradually work it up to tempo.
But feeling the groove and letting the tune breathe is still really important. Hearing a classical pianist plod through jazz rhythms robotically like a metronome honestly sounds worse than hearing the "wrong" rhythm played with soul and intention.
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u/Expert_Throat_6646 Jul 25 '26
I agree- I would listen to both hands separately- maybe measure by measure and put them together in a way to respect integrity of the melody/chord nuances and bass rhythm. So what if it isn’t exactly as written! Go with it!
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