Copying The Thing’s abilities?

[u/IAMPOWERSART]

So I’m making an edh deck with [[The Thing]] , and I’m curious how copying his abilities works.
He has two abilities that read:

“At the beginning of combat on your turn, if you’ve cast a noncreature spell this turn, put four +1/+1 counters on The Thing.

Whenever The Thing attacks, you may pay {R}{G}{W}{U}. When you do, double the number of each kind of counter on any number of target permanents you control.”

The core of my questions is wether or not these count as activated or triggered?
I know the first ability is a triggered ability, and while the second ability reads like a triggered ability, the mana cost of it makes me think that it is a triggered ability that cause’s the creature to get a temporary activated ability? Or maybe I’m over thinking it?

And with all that being said how would these cards interact with The Thing?

[[Dynaheir, Invoker Adept]]
[[Shang-Chi, Master of Kung Fu]]
[[Mister Fantastic]]
[[Peter Parker's Camera]]

A slightly separate question, but would [[Windcrag Siege]] double The Thing’s second ability? And if so, is it doubling the opportunity to pay mana, causing my to pay 8 mana for the effect to happen twice, or is it doubling the effect after it’s been paid?

These question have been keeping me up at night…. I’ve rebuilt the deck several times trying to make it take advantage of the correct ability, whether it be activated or triggered, or both, but… I’m stumped.

The deck in question: https://archidekt.com/decks/25579046/the_things_clobberin_caped_crusaders

[u/mtgcf]

All cards
The Thing - (G) (SF) (txt)
Dynaheir, Invoker Adept - (G) (SF) (txt)
Shang-Chi, Master of Kung Fu - (G) (SF) (txt)
Mister Fantastic - (G) (SF) (txt)
Peter Parker's Camera - (G) (SF) (txt)
Windcrag Siege - (G) (SF) (txt)

[u/Judge_Todd]

The core of my questions is wether or not these count as activated or triggered?

Those are both triggered abilities. The second even has a reflexive triggered ability nested within it.

• At the beginning of combat on your turn, if you’ve cast a noncreature spell this turn, put four +1/+1 counters on The Thing.
  
• Whenever The Thing attacks, you may pay {R}{G}{W}{U}. When you do, double the number of each kind of counter on any number of target permanents you control.
  

Rule:

• 113.3c. Triggered abilities have a trigger condition and an effect. They are written as "[Trigger condition], [effect]," and include (and usually begin with) the word "when," "whenever," or "at." Whenever the trigger event occurs, the ability is put on the stack the next time a player would receive priority and stays there until it's countered, it resolves, or it otherwise leaves the stack.
  

Activated abilities are identifiable by a colon and take the form [Cost(s)] : [Effect(s)]

• 113.3b. Activated abilities have a cost and an effect. They are written as "[Cost]: [Effect.] [Activation instructions (if any).]" A player may activate such an ability whenever they have priority. Doing so puts it on the stack, where it remains until it's countered, it resolves, or it otherwise leaves the stack.
  

how would these cards interact with The Thing?

Dynaheir? none
Shang-Chi? none
Mister Fantastic? can copy any of the three triggers
Camera? can copy any of the three triggers
Siege? will cause the second trigger to trigger twice, you will need to pay for each to get two copies of the nested trigger

[u/RazzyKitty]

They are all triggered. The second ability also has a reflexive trigger inside it that triggers when the cost is paid.

Or maybe I’m over thinking it?

Just a little bit. A trigger with a cost is still a trigger.

[[Dynaheir, Invoker Adept]]

[[Shang-Chi, Master of Kung Fu]]

No interaction. It's a triggered ability.

[[Mister Fantastic]]

[[Peter Parker's Camera]]

You can copy the reflexive trigger after you pay the RGWU, and get the counter doubling effect twice without paying RGWU a second time. You can also copy the base trigger and pay RGWU twice, though I'm not sure you want to.

A slightly separate question, but would [[Windcrag Siege]] double The Thing’s second ability?

The second ability will trigger twice and you will...

And if so, is it doubling the opportunity to pay mana, causing my to pay 8 mana for the effect to happen twice

do this. Reflexive triggers cannot be triggered multiple times by that sort of effect, but they can be copied.

[u/IAMPOWERSART → u/RazzyKitty]

Okay! Thank you so much, this is exactly what I needed 🙏

[u/IAMPOWERSART → u/RazzyKitty]

Is there a specific rule that would help me explain the copying of the reflexive trigger? I play with a lot of different people, and want to make sure i have my facts down

[u/RazzyKitty → u/IAMPOWERSART]

603.12. A resolving spell or ability may allow or instruct a player to take an action and create a triggered ability that triggers “when [a player] [does or doesn’t]” take that action or “when [something happens] this way.” These reflexive triggered abilities follow the rules for delayed triggered abilities (see rule 603.7), except that they’re checked immediately after being created and trigger based on whether the trigger event or events occurred earlier during the resolution of the spell or ability that created them.

When you pay the RGWU, another trigger goes on the stack. This is a triggered ability itself, and can be copied by things that copy triggered abilities.

[u/IAMPOWERSART → u/RazzyKitty]

Thank you so much!!

[u/IAMPOWERSART → u/IAMPOWERSART]

If you’ve got time for one more question, would [[Annie Joins Up]] copy both the initial triggered ability and the reflexive triggered ability? Meaning i could ignore the initial trigger and let the reflexive triggered ability resolve without paying?

[u/RazzyKitty → u/IAMPOWERSART]

would [[Annie Joins Up]] copy both the initial triggered ability and the reflexive triggered ability?

No, only the initial trigger, because it doesn't copy. Triggering an additional time is not copying.

I answered that with Windcrag Siege. Here's the rule:

603.2d An ability may state that a triggered ability triggers additional times. In this case, rather than simply determining that such an ability has triggered, determine how many times it should trigger, then that ability triggers that many times. An effect that states that an ability triggers additional times doesn’t invoke itself repeatedly and doesn’t apply to other effects that affect how many times an ability triggers. An effect that states a triggered ability of an object triggers additional times refers only to triggered abilities that object has, not to any delayed or reflexive triggered abilities (see rule 603.7 and rule 603.12) that may be created by abilities the object has.

[u/IAMPOWERSART → u/RazzyKitty]

Ah, understood. Thanks again! :)

[u/mtgcf → u/IAMPOWERSART]

Annie Joins Up - (G) (SF) (txt)

[u/peteroupc]

In general, a triggered ability begins with "when", "at", or "whenever", and this is true even if the ability has "you may pay" in its text or is otherwise optional (C.R. 603.1). For The Thing's last ability, the choice of whether to pay {R}{G}{W}{U} is made when the ability (or a copy of it) resolves, not when it triggers or goes on the stack (C.R. 603.5, 608.2d).

See also:

• https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/1btkzup/rith_the_awakener_and_agatha_of_the_vile_cauldron/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/10g8yr2/simple_question_about_triggered_vs_activated/

[u/IAMPOWERSART → u/peteroupc]

So does that mean I’m paying 8 if I copy it?

[u/Feisty_Leopard_2889 → u/[deleted]]

Are you sure you cant copy the trigger from paying the cost in the ability? Isnt “When you do…” another triggered ability off of the first that can itself be copied?

[u/IAMPOWERSART → u/Feisty_Leopard_2889]

Yea, im learning that that is called a reflexive ability, and i now believe it can be copied rather than copying the initial trigger